Vogon Poetry MK 2 point ZZ9pluralZAlpha - BALLS - 100k ish

[Salvage 1]

Vogon Poetry.... Mk 2

Now with slightly added common sense, and less ‘go fever’

The story so far, I made a rocket, it is two stages, M to M. Ended up being a far larger monster than I initially thought, but I ran with it. At BALLS 2017, while prepping said rocket for launch, I watched multiple two stagers go up, and then something bad happened… a lot failed. Sunday morning, I scratched my attempt stating that things were feeling a little stacked… pun. get it??

So, it’s 2018, let us start this again.

I already posted a couple of thread starts for repairs, and new rocket or two, but, to he honest with myself, I think I should focus on ONE thing, the success of the main show. So.. others are on hold for the foreseeable future.

I have been brewing over the project this winter, and…. Vogons need love too!

I started the new year by breaking it down into logical stages and trying to see where i can add to my admittedly limited experience in MD and two-stage, before going on with a BALLS 2018 launch.

Going to run this by my TAP and try and get him to be serious for a while.
Since this looks like it will be a redesign, at least of the bottom stage, plus a walk-through of experience gained in the journey, i thought a new thread.


… And so, it starts …
.. again


Basic Redesign

Why

• Moving to 4” MD Booster with 3” MD Sustainer.
• or… making 3” MD booster for CTI Imax
• want to squeeze out as much altitude as possible for the main show event, coz one way or another, this sustainer probably isnt going to fly again after BALLS..

How

• Totally new booster
  • 4” or 3” Carbon airframe
  • Carbon Fiber Plate fins
  • 3” Carbon Inter-stage/Coupler
  • EXTERNAL Antenna (Bottom Bulkhead)
  • Apogee only deployment, shortens needed airframe length
• Check and or rebuild inter-stage *rebuild for mongoose
• Maybe use Mongoose75 as start for booster *not a bad idea for testing!!!
• Idiot Check Sustainer (cos I am one, sometimes)
  • NOTE this does NOT mean get another idiot to check

Get a little more experience with minimum diameter

Why

• Really a no brainer

How

• I have a 54mm which just needs av bay replacement,
  
• I have a half finished Mongoose 75,
  • best plan for the moment, quickest to get flying[FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT]
  • Redesign and refit
  • Assign motor – M1830 from VP Boosta
  • Flight – AP Showers, April ’18, Brothers, OR
• and I could launch the sustainer of Vogon

Test Electronics in situ (again)

Why

• Firmware, updates, etc.
• Maybe revisit electronics/altimeter ideas, need to recheck market.

How

1. Flash and update all electronics.
2. Test separately and together
3. Test outside of main Vogon air-frames (ie., another rocket) before transferring to Vogon for Boost-Dart

Re-Test Booster Electronics Set (Telemetrum, Telemaybe, Adept22)

• Test booster TeleMetrum in another rocket
  • Mongoose - AP Showers
• Test TeleMaybe
  • as backup event manager
  • as main event, with tracking

Re-Test Sustainer Electronics Set (TeleMega, Stratologger CF)

1. Check deployment and tracking functionality of TeleMega
   • Color of Right 3" with 54mm MMT - AP Showers? (if I have time after the goose rebuild)
2. Test air start channel
   • Cluster Kraken! That can do air starts!
   • Needs repair and new sections, plus new av-bay,
   • OROC has Cluster themed NXRS this year.
3. Fly a mini setup in a sub size, use Payload bay, nose, av-bay, etc. from Vogon on top of these
   • 3” to 3" with 54mm MMTs
   • "The Thumb" 4" Booster with a Purple Parrot 3" with 54mm MMT sustainer
4. After checking all systems, move them over to the Vogon Stack and fly as boosted Dart (can do this at Brothers), then when happy…
   • If possible, but by this time, all electronics, tracking, etc., should have been thoroughly checked, including in the VP Av bay arrangement.
   • Cos it would be cool
5. BALLS – cos that’s about in-situ as it gets
   • No matter the outcome - coolest flight yet!

Acquire new motors

Why

• The M1830 and M840 are a few years old and have been sat around for 6+ months.
• I want an M or two to burn before and during NXRS!!!
  
• That second one was far more honest than the first.
• Big Motors are fun!

How

• Big fat 4” AT M1939 purchased over winter
  • 98/10240 case acquired over the winter, need all the extras
    
  • Edit - scratch idea. erm, looked on thrustcurve and... "Cert. Designation: N1691 (2% N)"
  • Preferring IMax idea.
• Order placed for CTI 75 big ass IMAX -
  • Bay Area Rocketry, inquiry sent
  • I have been talking to 'people wot know better than wot i does' and I have come to the belief that a big fat CTi IMax is the booster motor to aim for.
  • I am hearing that CTi is shipping, and my dealers are telling me that they have motors, or are expecting them.
  • 6XL with hubcap in a 75/7600 snap-ring case or CTi 6 Grain case, depending on available motor.
  • This would be the M2020, or M2245, which are monsters. Brief sims show this at around 120K+.

• Replace CTi M840
  • Bay Area Rocketry, inquiry sent

• Look into M long-burn from AT for sustainer
  • M650 / M685
  • Will talk to AT about choice
  • Already have an AT 75mm HEI system to play with

Additional Goals

Altitude
​

20K, 25K, 30K, 40K (Brothers waiver tickler), 100K (full stack Black Rock)
​

Mach Velocity
​

M1.5, M2.0, M2.5 (full stack)
​

Staging & Tracking
​

3 more validated correct staging attempts on TeleMega
Successful tracking on all test flights
​

More later, will fill in this primary list as more things get thunked and added….

Started work on the Mongoose!

Will attempt to only post valuable info and questions, etc… and not ramble this time.

• Update this post when things get ticked off or added , will mark with italic when something is selected... bold when completed.. both if i did them in the right order!!

 

[BDB]

“Now with slightly added common sense...”

I love it! This MD HPR staging-stuff is a serious process. I’ll be glued to this thread.

Edit: I updated the link in the Ludicrous HPR section in the Multistage Awesomeness thread

 

[OverTheTop]

op: Looking forward to the build. Love the name!

Share and enjoy

 

[Salvage 1]

Gaining Experience - Lets try and run before we can enter a marathon

• Gain more MD experience
• Gain more velocity experience
• Start to pre-design bottom stage of booster for a 6 or 6xl IMax, use upper chute section of mongoose on final booster, maybe use av bay

Mongoose 75 - Step into large MD
---- all edits to Mongoose build go here


So, so far, I have managed 38 and 54mm MD with mostly good success, when I find that 38, I will know if it is 99% rofl...

I has a Mongoose... I has a motor.... I has a plan....

The Goose as is...



The original Goose kit was purchased from another TRF'er, carbon tube, different TRF'er. The nose, out of my stash, spare, from something I may have purchased... on TRF.
It has been worked on previously, including that gorgeous fin work!, and I continued the build on and off, but I must have seen a deer at some point, as it ended up against the wall with the '1/2 finished' collection (you know you have some!). For some reason this beastie didn't want to sim to be stable, even with a nosecone with a load of lead in it, and that worried me... probably why I saw a deer and moved on.

The 'goose has a neat little arrangement that the previous owner put in. There is a bulkhead, sandwiched between two 1" couplers, at the end of where a 7000 case would sit. This has a hole in it for an all-thread. All-thread goes through hole in bulkhead, and then screws in to the fore bulkhead on the motor. Get a locking nut and bolt on the top inside the rocket, and nothings going anywhere. Quite elegant actually. The only improvement, which I can't do to this, is that I would have secured the retainer assembly with bolts through the airframe and couplers, but, ho hum, tis wat it is, and it's good!

Alteration Plans

Well the goose didn't come with a carbon tube, so why? Well that is going to become the upper tube for the final Vogon booster... I would like it so that all i did was remove the nosecone, replace with bulkhead, etc for under sustainer motor, bolt on a new fincantube section and go... but that is later.
Note the second pic. The goose will split at the bottom of the av bay at apogee and come tumbling down on a long shock cord. At 1000ft, the onboard electronics fire out the sub-main chute. This is a tough chute with a nice hole in the center, reinforced shrouds, etc. This will take the jolt of fast deployment (90ft/sec) and start slowing the beast down. At 500ft, the Jolly Logic will release and the second 'main' comes out. This can be smaller than the normal main, since we already have the sub-main out...
So... triple deployment, or dual deployment with backup main, trying out an idea I have. The extra chute and cord weight actually help quite nicely towards positive stability... bonus!
Doing it this way, i can plan on deploying everything out of the upper chute section in the final booster.
Since I believe that this beastie is 'carbon impregnated fiberglass' for the lower tube and av coupler, and I know that it is decent carbon for the upper tube, I will have to make sure that I can optimize tracking as best I can. This will mean putting an antenna on the bottom bulkhead of the av bay so that it is free in the air after apogee event.

Build Notes
4-13-18
When I was looking for my Dremel to cut the 3/8 all-thread, I found another piece of black 3" FG airframe in the garage and it's only a couple of inches shorter than the real nice shiney CF tube.
I will be throwing this at the goose to allow me to put the CF back in the build pile of materials for the VP Booster. It will probably be a little heavier than the CF tube. Throw it in the sim.
Yeah, this is again more of a 'finish building something out of parts' than a real 'build' but, it's part of the journey.

later on ...
Well, found out why that black tube wasn't with all the others. It had previous damage to the end, and had "MMT ONLY" written on it in black sharpie...
Back the original plan
---

4-14-18
Dawn comes to Marblehead
Forehead - Wall - repeat, etc.
The other MD's i have made, I designed myself... I said, ok, I am going to fly a 6XL 54mm, what length of BT do i need, then what size fins...
This, the fins are fixed, but the design still seems to be for the longest, baddest motor that one could stuff into it.
Therefore, I have fin size, and length, what motor do i need to balance those... not what ballast do i need!!
So, I need to shift my 'mindset' a little. This beastie is obviously made for a 7000 / 7 Grain or something like that. Which means that for correct stability, it not only needs that motor, but it also relies on the weight of the motor hardware to bring the CG to the correct place. Therefore, when I am simming it with a 4grain, well, that's just wrong, but, I believe we can mitigate that a little. Flying a 4grain in a 5grain case with spacer would shift the CG since we have longer case, and more weight in front of the grains. Throwing the 4grain load in a 6 grain case with two spacers would help just that little bit more.
Now the need for a larger motor becomes more apparent. Well, I have the grains...
Also, because of this, I can't quite 'believe' RockSim numbers, and therefore RASAero (since i move the weights, etc over from RockSim). Why? They dont know that I am flying with a longer case than usual. For example, unloaded, Rocksim says stability over 6. Throw in the 4 grain M1830 and it goes down to 1.0, BUT, this is because RockSim uses numbers for that motor that include THAT SPECIFIC CASE. Sooooo.... a slight brainthrust in the right direction should tell me that, depending upon just where the unmovable CP is, using a longer case with spacers may just bring the 1.0 up to 1.1 or 1.2. In this scenario, 0.1 is a LOT

Please - comments below on this if you have thoughts.
----

Electronics

Need to install altimeter(s) in the bay and check wiring...

• Altus Metrum TeleMetrum for main altimeter
  • Flash update and check - TeleMetrum and TeleMega now at 1.8.5 (4/15/18)
  • charge batteries (4/16/18 - 4 charged Altus Metrum batteries)
  • check and charge TeleBT unit(s)
  • check and charge handheld radio (backup APRS tracking receiver) (4/15/18)
• Adept22 as backup altimeter
  • Fool-proof altimeter, love them!

Need to get tracking onboard

• TeleMetrum will handle tracking and telemetry
• Need to get aerial on the outside of the bottom av bay bulkhead, and run extension lead from TeleMetrum (done).

Build Notes
4-12-18
Everything is ready for fitting. Need to remove the battery holder that I am not planning on using, since the TeleMetrum has its own battery. Holes there to zip-tie everything good n tight. Extension cable for the SMA antenna will terminate at the lower bulkhead and I have a nice flexible antenna for the outside. Two screw switches accessible through hole in the 'switch band'
Will flash when everything is screwed onto the board.
Note - why am I going to the extra and putting the antenna on the outside of the lower AV bulkhead? I have been told, and seen, that carbon fiber isn't the most RF transparent material. I don't mind a 'weak' signal on the way up, but, as soon as I get apogee, I want tracking!



4-13-18
New holes drilled for altimeters, spare battery holder removed, replaced with TeleMetrum battery, zip tied in place.
Altimeters put in for weighing and balance, and then sled taken out and put on charge (TeleMetrum).
Will flash tomorrow when I have full charge

4-17-18
Sled finished, lipo for Adept22. Tested, flashed and charged (TeleMega and TeleMetrum)
Telemetry OK, tracking test OK.
Got a nice antenna on the bottom bulkhead, see how it works at the weekend.

Deployment

As said earlier, I am going for 'drogue-less' at apogee and main(s) at lower altitude. Done it with single main at 1000ft a few times before, but I have also suffered from chute damage a couple of times from fast deployment, so, I has a cunning plan ROFL.
All shock cords are Kevlar, minimum rating 900lb. Areas where it can rub against the edges are higher strength kevlar, and have tape around the area which will rub. Shock cords are to be daisy-chained and reefed to try and mitigate some of the deployment shock. Go longer than usual..
Charges...
TeleMetrum for Primary charges, Adept for backups (apogee+1)
Since there is not much free space inside either of the two tubes, and I intend to fill what is left with copious amounts of dog barf (to try and stop things shifting and catching on the antenna for example), I am planning to go with 1cc for all charges. If the primaries don't blow the sections apart, then the secondary charges should definitely finish the job.
GROUND TEST!

Build Notes
4-12-18
Got all the cordage measured, cut, fitted, attached, etc., chutes chosen and packed for test fit. All chutes, etc., fit as they should, nice and snug, not much space left anywhere.



bugger.. that gave the name away!! Vinyl was part of the lot I ordered for the original build. Still have Dentrassi too somewhere.

4-17-18
1.0cc of 4Fg BP, top and bottom, did the trick, with some authority. Will add a little more to the backup charges. Love the ability to fire the TeleMetrum charges remotely!


Motor (s)

1. CTi M1830 currently sat in a 5 grain case with spacer - mild flight
2. Numb M-2245 Alumaflame - not so mild
3. Whatever I can scrounge from the Numb 75mm stockpile, and fill the available space!

Build Notes
4-12-18
Motor fit. 3/8" all-thread goes into the front of the CTi smoke bulkhead, runs up inside the center of the bulkhead retention plate, and gets a nice lock washer and lock nut screwed down tight to snug it all together. Not going anywhere. From trolling through some old build threads, this seems the norm for Mongeeses.
Marked where to cut.
Looks like the CTi 6 grain is the longest commercial case that I own that will fit in here. I do have a 75/7600 snap-ring that has one end mushed that I can easily get cut down to 'full length' for the Numb load later on.
Dumpster dive brought out selection of Alumaflame grains that can/will be built into a future motor for this beastie, but not for the first flight... Mild then Wild



4-13-18
Cut 3/8" allthread to size, check fit in rocket, will work fine. Can get down there easy (from the top) with an extended socket wrench to tighten the nut back up when it is all together.

4-17-18
Motor built, except for O rings, which I will put in at the site.


Sims (RASAERO)

Beastie got heavy.. big boned as they say.
at 75% build, 'as is' weights... not final, but close...
M-1830 - 1741 ft/sec 18,500ft
M-2245 - 2342 ft/sec 27,930ft

4-17-18
"Final" weight, I managed to trim things a little here and there... a hair over 10lb 8oz with everything except motor.
CTi M1830 - 1,840 ft/sec 19,121ft
Let's see what the computers say after the flight.


Flights
4-20-18
OROC AP Showers, Brothers, Oregon
CTi M1830 - 1,821fps (M1.6) - 22,236ft
(main report in post 13)

 

[emckee]

VOGON POETRY MK 2
...

Will attempt to only post valuable info and questions, etc… and not ramble this time.

Knowing Rob, I think this last attempt may be the most challenging... :flyingpig:

:rofl:

 

[Salvage 1]

(place holder for other 'experience' flights)

In the spirit if Scrooge and all of that... I am going through my garage stash of old builds, half builds, crashed, needing repaired builds, etc., to see what can be put together.
For example
I have a two stager that has 38 to 38mm mmts, fly that a couple more times successfully.
Somewhere, I still have the older 54mm MD fincan thingy. See if I can match that up with the two stager sustainer top end to make a cheap and dirty 54mm MD.

4-17-18
Set up the sustainer of my smaller two stage with the TeleMega. Plan on getting at least a flight or three in with that this weekend, if things look good, I may try for a two stage flight with this stack, or throw the top end on a MD 54mm bottom end and try it with an L265 longburn

4-21-18
Nope, didn't happen... Mongoose flight more important this weekend.

 

[Salvage 1]

(place holder for Kraken rebuild)

4/12/18

Quad Kraken had four 38mm MMT's. I have flown it a few times, 2 on the ground, two airstart. Retired after it went real fast, sideways, at a scarey altitude when the airstarts happened at wrong angle.
TeleMega is perfect for handling the airstarts. It will allow me to test the airstart channel, while flying to a far lower altitude than I would with a normal 'two stage' rocket, around 6K. This means that I will be able to SEE everything, and it will land closer!
Also an excuse to repair the thing.

Timeline - Want to fly it at NXRS for the cluster challenge, would prefer to fly it at an earlier launch, for a chance of a repeat test flight.

4/14/18
Tubes ordered

 

[Salvage 1]

(place holder sub scale stack)

4/13/18

I have the original 4" booster with a 3" hole, it is setup with inter-stage, etc, and is begging to fly.
Last mad season (Black thingy weekend), I got myself a 3" Purple Parrot with a 54mm MMT.
A little alteration here and there and the two should be able to be mated together.
Plan is to fly a baby M (I have an M1101) to a long burn 54mm (L265) to test tracking on the two altimeters to higher altitudes than I could without a two stage (sustainer primarily)
Parrot should be made to utilize the AV bay and upper airframe/nose cone from VP... so... Vogon Parrot riding on a Thumb. So another 'short build' since I already have most of the stuff on VP.

Timeline - NXRS would be the perfect place to do this test flight. If good, then a second test may be done if we have a launch available between NXRS and BALLS that would be suitable.\


4/14/18

Why do the above when I have another two stager in the garage somewhere that takes the TeleMega in the sustainer and the TeleMetrum in the booster??
The airframe on this one is 54mm, and currently, it does 38mm to 38mm reloads, but, I can put something together to get a 54mm MD to 54mm with 38mmt.
Depending upon motor selection, this could be very cost effective.

 

[Salvage 1]

(place holder for VP Mk 2 Booster build and stack fit, including any sustainer alterations and notes)

4/13/18

Early thoughts.

Well, I am nearly finished the Moongoose and I think I start seeing what I want from the final booster.
Case connects directly to rear end of AV bay, AV bay secured into lower CF airframe with bolts. Since I don't want any wiggle at all, I want a lot of that AV coupler sticking out the top of the lower tube for the upper AF to slide over. Upper CF airframe (the one on the goose) will get fitted with conduit for separation charge, and then some sort of double coupler+bulkhead between the bottom of the sustainer motor and the chute of the booster, with charge above to make the two go their different ways.
Most probably go with apogee deployment, or something with the Jolly Logic unit.
Will work out length of motor airframe when I secure the booster motor (6 or 6xl IMax). Length of stack will then determine fins size. I am leaning towards going with 4 fins for the booster at the moment.

Thoughts on this would be most appreciated.

 

[RocketFeller]

Knowing Rob, I think this last attempt may be the most challenging... :flyingpig:

:rofl:

He does have a way with words! I almost fell asleep on the way home from our last meeting about ten times - no Rob banter to keep me alert...

 

[Salvage 1]

NO more motors for DAN!!!
(oh... we may have a fat Alumaflame M for your Dragonfly if I don't use it, and still thinking of pouring you a new one for NXRS or Sheridan)

 

[Salvage 1]

OK ... I am realizing that things may get a little hard to follow.

I will be doing all the update for the builds ABOVE these posts...
-------------
Please throw out all comments (helpful or not) and questions down here, but, you will need to keep going through the above posts... i will throw date markers in to make it a 'little' easier.


something like

"commenting on post 4, 4-14-18 Dawn comes to Marblehead"
you are an idiot

 

[Salvage 1]

MD Mongoose (post 4) -
4/20/18
first flight updated - M1830
Alt 22236ft (4.20 miles)
Velocity 1821 ft/sec (M 1.6)


Popped main at apogee, located by RDF as GPS lock didn't stay. Seems that both apogee charges may have gone off nearly the same time.
Weather was cold, so there maybe some barometric error in height reported, but not enough to make up for nearly 3,000ft of error between RASAero and actual. I believe that the rocket definitely flew over 20K.
JLCR didn't deploy correctly. Everything was exactly as packed on the second chute, need more testing on this, maybe change over to a Tender Descender.

Bricks to head learning moments. Learned a few things that will be applied to the next flight.
-replace carbon fiber with something a little more RF transparent (user error)
-change backup charge delay from 1 second to 2 or more.
-wait for a HARD GPS lock (user error)
-many more

Obligatory photos..


Big thanks to Joey and Kelly for use of their tower (really nice one) and Robert and Keith for help tracking the thing down!

 

[Salvage 1]

Plans for NXRS

1. stress out the moongoose. M2600, Trying for 25K and Mach 2; trying new charge bays, testing altimeter and tracking
   
2. 2 stage wildman sport. J150 top stage, trying for at least 2 flights; testing two stage electronics and tracking
   
3. MD 54mm on L265 MY; more MD experience, tracking, etc

I may not be completely ready for BALLS this year. I have the rocket, etc., but i need to feel comfortable, and trust myself enough, with the MD and two stage rockets. Lots can go wrong, and getting a load of experience at least goes a little way to mitigate.

 

[FalconRocketry]

This is my kind of rocketry! I love pushing the limits. I'm working on a 54mm minimum diameter rocket for an L altitude record attempt.

 

[Salvage 1]

So, the last test didn't go as well as I thought. I hit 25K and popped the main up there.
Here is the thread about restoring the moongoose
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/5-years-in-the-desert-restoring-a-moongoose.188585/