Viper Family Build

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ECayemberg

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Next up, a trio of Loc Vipers. One of which is fairly recognizable, the other two are a bit different from the norm. Since taking a liking to "his" Viper III a while back, my older son has been obsessed with building a King Viper III; Tim Dixon's photos of his recently completed KVIII certainly didn't help things. At the age of 8, there might be more appropriate choices, but he has his heart set on it, and so with a little help from dad, here we go. As for the other two "Vipers", what can I say other than that I have some friends that are *bad* influences.:wink: Not going for glam shots or background for these builds...kids have a short attention span, so build documentation will follow suit!

First steps: Peel some glassine!
Is it necessary? I don't know, but I like how glue (both wood glue and epoxies) soak into the virgin paper fibers, so I do it! To begin, I'm just after the tube-to-tube joints, so the 1" wide swatch is scored with an X-acto blade. Just get through the glassine; an angle helps keep the lines straight. Peel up a corner and done. Kinda relaxing and fun after you get the hang of it!



That gets done 9 times over, and you get a pile of motor tubes with a Mohawk stripe down one side.



Tubes are tacked together using 5 minute epoxy or wood glue. Younger son helps mix and apply the epoxy to the tubes to be bonded on his royal Viper.



Rubber bands are applied to keep the two tubes together until cured.



After two tubes are glued, you may realize that you need to trim the glassine more in order to get get paper-to-paper contact with the remaining tube. That, or if you're smarter than I you already knew that and trimmed the glassine properly ahead of time. If not, and if you prefer to rid yourself of the glassine in the areas to be bonded, do that now!:cool:



Once trimmed, go ahead and glue that third tube in place.

Two build notes on this section:
1. Keep the ends of the tubes even! You can handle that!
2. It may be worthwhile to incorporate the centering rings on the forward end while tacking things in place. I discovered that centering ring spacing is close to, but not exactly the same as, tube-to-tube gluing without the rings in place. If not, just dremel the rings after tacking until they fit; no sweat!

On the bigger fella, Ron's Loc stocked 45" long Heavy Duty motor tubes. Loc 3.0 stocks the same tubes, but in 34" lengths. Not a major deal, just cut the 34" tube in 3 even lengths, add it to the end of the stock 34" on the top end, and you have equivalent tubes. Looks lika dis:

3" stock couplers with Stiffy inserts all epoxified:



And in the end of the stocker 34"ers:



You can figure out the rest. 'Nuff said on all those motor tubes!:)
 

ECayemberg

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Now that we have some tubes tripled up, let's check on the fins.

We've always been taught NOT to bevel the root edge of fins! Except with the tube wedge method, so lets bevel some edges.

This photo shows why it helps to do so. Fin on left has a square root edge and really doesn't fit the valley of the tubes well. The two fins on the right have a 15 degree bevel on them and wedge right in there!



RFJustin got me started a while back on a good bevel setup. Router, table, Typhoon bits, and carefully placed hands and fingers makes for some pretty decent beveled edges.



Thinking briefly about a few reports of people punishing KVIII's, *Al* and shredding them at Max Q near the motor tube-to-main 5.5" airframe joint, without doing a whole pile of fin simulations, it appears that flutter may contribute to stress on the lower-mid airframe and aid in rapid vehicle disassembly. That being the case, the fin shape has been modified a bit to decrease the tip span, largely by increasing the trailing edge sweep. The KVIII and the rest of the smaller family now closely resemble the 2.6" diameter Viper III fins which is probably a good move, especially considering certain people *like Al* like to punish these things!:wink:





Purists may not like that the largest of the fins are 3/8" ply instead of G-10. Rest assured, G-10 will be an option for the big Mother.
 
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djs

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What's your plan for motor retention? Any thoughts of building a 2 stage king Viper? :)
 

ECayemberg

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What's your plan for motor retention? Any thoughts of building a 2 stage king Viper? :)
One single Pem or T nut in the backside of the triangular shaped plywood from the centering ring formed by the cutouts for the 3 motor tubes. Simple and effective!

Regarding a 2 stager, that'd be crazy! I know this guy, Glen, he just might be crazy enough! 6 motors, 2 stages, it would certainly take a glutton to try it! Way beyond my current level of motivation for complexity!:cool:
 

jimzcatz

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Eric, you do know that simple water on a sponge or rag will remove glassine right? I mean, why cut?
 

mrwalsh85

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RFJustin got me started a while back on a good bevel setup. Router, table, Typhoon bits, and carefully placed hands and fingers makes for some pretty decent beveled edges.
Can you share more information?

Is it possible to use these router bits with G-10? I need to bevel my fins for my min dia bird and I have been brainstorming lately. This seems like it could be just the ticket!

-Mike
 

ECayemberg

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Can you share more information?

Is it possible to use these router bits with G-10? I need to bevel my fins for my min dia bird and I have been brainstorming lately. This seems like it could be just the ticket!

-Mike
Hi Mike,

You bet...all credit to Justin, he hooked me up a while back. Here's a link to the product: https://www.foredom.net/typhoonburs.aspx

The first two listed products are obviously different, though they both claim "15 degrees". The longer, narrower bit is more like 5 degrees. I have and use both, the 5 degree bit is a tad trickier to use and makes me nervous every time I use it. That said, it puts nice scale-ish bevels on Tomahawks, Patriots and such.

You can definitely use them on G-10, carbon, wood, etc. These are tough bits; though they do eventually wear out. I use them interchangeably for all 3 materials...feed rate and respirable dust is about the only difference. You go slower with the harder materials and probably want to throw a respirator on for G-10 and carbon.
 

ECayemberg

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So very cool. Keep it up Eric!
Thanks Bob! Much appreciated; happy to have you here!

Eric, you do know that simple water on a sponge or rag will remove glassine right? I mean, why cut?
I think I've heard about that, but never tried it! I'll try it on scrap; it just makes me nervous to add enough water to a paper product for the skin to remove the skin. Or does the glassine outer wrap stay put and it just removes the sheen?

Regardless, I use denatured alcohol for epoxy cleanup directly on the paper tubes. I would think the alky would be more harsh than water, and I've never noticed it affecting the tubes much.

Plus, I wish I could demo peeling paper tubes to the world. I can probably peel an entire 4" diameter tube in 2 minutes or less, leaving a fairly consistent resin-hungry surface. It's really simple once one figures it out. And I sleep better at night knowing that the glue is soaking into hairy paper rather than glassine paper:wink:.
 

noffie79

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This looks awesome Eric! I've been tempted to get one of these but was hesitant. I think this thread may change things. I'll be watching!
 

Nytrunner

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I've done the "knife score and peel" method and haven't had any difficulties. Nice to know it works up into the big tubes also.
I still lobby for Imperial Viper being the King Viper upscale. Mother lode has 4 tubes: can't be a viper!
 

jimzcatz

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Glassine is a chemical added in the manufacturing process. It's not a layer of paper. It comes off easily. A wet finger will do it. Can't believe you never heard of this, it's in almost all of the Estes instructions.
 

ECayemberg

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I've done the "knife score and peel" method and haven't had any difficulties. Nice to know it works up into the big tubes also.
I still lobby for Imperial Viper being the King Viper upscale. Mother lode has 4 tubes: can't be a viper!
You called it! The biggest of the three is indeed the Imperial Viper as you've named it! Or the Mother Lode as it was originally named! Actually, the Mother Lode always had three tubes, Jimz added the fourth for a custom ride....I believe his may be the only 4 motor tubed Mother Lode ever in existence...I believe using the mailing tubes allowed him to fit all four in the airframe; I tried four Loc HBT-3's in and they wouldn't fit!
 

crossfire

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Eric
That young man helping you sure looks like he knows what he is doing. It will not be long before he shows you and Grandpa how things should be done. Enjoy every moment.
 

jimzcatz

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Eric, I bet 4 of the standard 3" tubes would fit. Only reason I did 4 is cuz I happened to have an extra fin.
 

Nytrunner

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You called it! The biggest of the three is indeed the Imperial Viper as you've named it! Or the Mother Lode as it was originally named! Actually, the Mother Lode always had three tubes, Jimz added the fourth for a custom ride....I believe his may be the only 4 motor tubed Mother Lode ever in existence...I believe using the mailing tubes allowed him to fit all four in the airframe; I tried four Loc HBT-3's in and they wouldn't fit!

Oop. That's what I get for reading the HPR forum more than the Big Diameter section of vendor sites.
 

ECayemberg

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This looks awesome Eric! I've been tempted to get one of these but was hesitant. I think this thread may change things. I'll be watching!
Cool Ryan! Though only one of these is a currently available kit (King Viper III), I suspect you'll see the larger and smaller ones being built here released to the wild in the near future.

Eric, I bet 4 of the standard 3" tubes would fit. Only reason I did 4 is cuz I happened to have an extra fin.
Cool. It looks nice both ways, I think. I hope your 4 fin meets my 3 fin on the range one of these days!

Eric
That young man helping you sure looks like he knows what he is doing. It will not be long before he shows you and Grandpa how things should be done. Enjoy every moment.
Thanks Gary! Yeah, the kids are really pumped about these. Though they've always showed interest in building and flying rockets, they've never shown this level of commitment to building a complex rocket every step of the way.....I'm digging it!:smile: We're in the midst of laying a whole lot of Proline 4500 black goo along the valleys of the tubes and fins. See you at Da Bong!
 

ECayemberg

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With all the tubes bonded together, we need to mate those beveled fins to the tri-tube assembly. Accomplished that with appropriately sized batches of Bob Smith 5 minute and some fin guides to hold it all in alignment. You know, I really like fancy epoxies, but I really like the convenience of quick cure epoxies for tacking stuff and quick builds of smaller rockets. Plus, that smell...yummy!

Fins, tubes, and assorted alignment jig-a-ma-doodles:



 

LOC

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Lookin Good Kid!!!
 

djs

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I'm beginning to think that the "Cayemberg" should be a standard unit of measure for large diameter, big clustered rockets.

"Hey, did you hear about Bob's new rocket?"
"No"
"It's a full Cayemberg"
"Jeez- where's he going to find the room to put that thing?"

Equivalence- 1 Saturn V = 26 Cayembergs
 

ECayemberg

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Lookin Good Kid!!!
Thanks Guys!

I'm beginning to think that the "Cayemberg" should be a standard unit of measure for large diameter, big clustered rockets.

"Hey, did you hear about Bob's new rocket?"
"No"
"It's a full Cayemberg"
"Jeez- where's he going to find the room to put that thing?"

Equivalence- 1 Saturn V = 26 Cayembergs
LOL; thanks Glen! There were many that came before us; we're just having fun flying the oldies modernized with today's technologies. Having an absolute blast doing so!
 

ECayemberg

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After a bunch of distractions, it's time to work on rockets again...yay!

Tri-motor Fin Assemblies

We decided to use Proline 4500 black goo to filletize these tri-cluster assemblies. Nothing like a bunch of jet black dye all over the kids and my hands! Here's the Mother Lode fin assembly prior to primer. Black gooberage everywhere...uf!



Train 'em young! Mini Me doing the priming of the Ma Load can:



Queen and Imperial Viper cans with the first coat of primer on. Functional, but not pretty yet!



Airframes

I've either grown lazy or smarter with age. Rarely if ever do I paint cardboard airframes. They either get monokoted or wrapped in Stickershock. The King and Queen will get the latter: Stickershock wraps. Cheers, Mark!

My preference is to prep the airframe prior to wrapping. That simply means: drill all holes, seal with thin CA, re-drill, and sand smooth as necessary. Then wrap and cut out the holes post wrapping. That step looks like this (Queen pictured):



We begin the wrapping process. The 4" version came as one big piece. After getting in a bit of a bubble, the wrap is trimmed at the payload-to-main airframe line; we proceed with the payload wrap.



Working back and forth from the center out, the wraps are done in a jiff. Young man is proud; he was a good helper!



Introducing the Queen Viper III, mocked up and looking good for the first time. More work to be done, but sometimes you just gotta throw it all together and have a look!



Then the brother gets jealous and decides to pour some effort into "his" Viper. King Viper on the loose!



Wrapped the head of the snake first, then onto the giant ~48" long body wrap. Take your time, get it straight, work from the center out, surprisingly few dramas!



Don't have a mock-up photo of the King yet; ran out of time and stole the fin can for priming.

Keep pluggin' and chuggin'!
 

djs

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We decided to use Proline 4500 black goo to filletize these tri-cluster assemblies. Nothing like a bunch of jet black dye all over the kids and my hands!
Wait.. back up the truck here. You let your kids use Proline?! You are a braver man than all of us! When I use it, I get complaints from the neighbors 3 blocks away that there's black stuff all over their house!

Vipers look great! Can't wait to see the king!

@Loc- when will the King Viper be on the website?
 

JoeG

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Great thread Eric. You are bringing back memories that might have to be realized. I have a few LOC kits and a bunch of tubes tucked away somewhere. Years ago I had a VIII that had at least a hundred flights on it with black powder D's and composite E's and F's. I literally wore out the motor tubes from ejection charges. I may need to build one of those KVIII's myself.
 

CzTeacherMan

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Plus, I wish I could demo peeling paper tubes to the world. I can probably peel an entire 4" diameter tube in 2 minutes or less, leaving a fairly consistent resin-hungry surface. It's really simple once one figures it out. And I sleep better at night knowing that the glue is soaking into hairy paper rather than glassine paper:wink:.
I know the joys of peeling glassine. I used to do it when I built my Lil Nuke and Aura. I haven't built a Loc kit in a long time since I tend to find water all the darn time at Bong...
Awesome builds going here, Eric.
 

ksaves2

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Sort of looks like the Flis' Starlord: https://www.fliskits.com/products/01prod_fs.htm I wonder which came first the Viper or the SL. I flew my StarLord painted like the kit photo with I believe an E12-8 and it worked like a charm.
Especially with a chute release so I didn't have to walk so far after I believe 2000' flight. I recall I simmed the heck out of it and thought the delay was too long but it worked like a charm (It might have been an E12-6 but I don't have
access to my computer sim to check at the moment. Kurt
 

ksaves2

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Hi Mike,

You bet...all credit to Justin, he hooked me up a while back. Here's a link to the product: https://www.foredom.net/typhoonburs.aspx

The first two listed products are obviously different, though they both claim "15 degrees". The longer, narrower bit is more like 5 degrees. I have and use both, the 5 degree bit is a tad trickier to use and makes me nervous every time I use it. That said, it puts nice scale-ish bevels on Tomahawks, Patriots and such.

You can definitely use them on G-10, carbon, wood, etc. These are tough bits; though they do eventually wear out. I use them interchangeably for all 3 materials...feed rate and respirable dust is about the only difference. You go slower with the harder materials and probably want to throw a respirator on for G-10 and carbon.
Awww geez, Stupidhead here was going to ask a stupid question but I just scrolled up and saw the picture of that neat router table. I gotta get me one of those once I get my garage/shop cleaned out. Still recovering from the sewer line backup. It's clean in the basement and smells nice but getting it back together is going to take time. I'll be "itch'in" to build something by then or complete an L3 project. Like the idea of "not" doing free hand beveling anymore. Kurt
 

ECayemberg

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Wait.. back up the truck here. You let your kids use Proline?! You are a braver man than all of us! When I use it, I get complaints from the neighbors 3 blocks away that there's black stuff all over their house!

Vipers look great! Can't wait to see the king!

@Loc- when will the King Viper be on the website?
Yeah, it was a giant leap of faith. Honestly, I think the Proline 4500 is about the best tool for this job....thin enough to get down into those deep valleys and wet enough to impregnate the paper:eyepop: Worked well, despite the black-out in the Cayemberg basement!:dark:

Great thread Eric. You are bringing back memories that might have to be realized. I have a few LOC kits and a bunch of tubes tucked away somewhere. Years ago I had a VIII that had at least a hundred flights on it with black powder D's and composite E's and F's. I literally wore out the motor tubes from ejection charges. I may need to build one of those KVIII's myself.
Great to see you here, Joe! Absolutely, put 'er on the building blocks! Looks like you've had a busy few months in the RC world...haven't had much up in the air this year yet, a big Cub but nothing fast or fancy. 2018 maybe...

I know the joys of peeling glassine. I used to do it when I built my Lil Nuke and Aura. I haven't built a Loc kit in a long time since I tend to find water all the darn time at Bong...
Awesome builds going here, Eric.
Hi Erik! I actually enjoy peeling glassine. Good therapy!:smile: I think Loc 3.0 might have something in store for you when the time comes! Otherwise, seal the ends of the tube with thin CA and cover the airframes in something Bong proof and you're golden!:wink:

Awww geez, Stupidhead here was going to ask a stupid question but I just scrolled up and saw the picture of that neat router table. I gotta get me one of those once I get my garage/shop cleaned out. Still recovering from the sewer line backup. It's clean in the basement and smells nice but getting it back together is going to take time. I'll be "itch'in" to build something by then or complete an L3 project. Like the idea of "not" doing free hand beveling anymore. Kurt
Hey Kurt, be nice to yourself!!! Good luck with the sewer cleanup. Had a "Near Miss" the other day with the water heater. She broke and began spewing water all over the place. Luckily we were home and I found it sooner rather than later....lots of rocket stuff in the vicinity had the place flooded!:y:

Agreed on the beveling. Justin Farrand gets all the credit on the setup there! He was beveling long before me and was instrumental in pointing me in the right direction. Let me know if you need anything along those lines when the time is right!



Thanks all!
 

ECayemberg

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Since I'm Forum-bombing the place today....here's a brief update on the family build.

Since the decals are on, that seems to have satisfied the boys for a while, so I can focus on some Airfest projects. Looking ahead, first flights for the Viper lineage is slated to be at Midwest Power in early November. Well, until someone said that it'd be nice to have the Mother Lode at Airfest....if the Envoy Convoy can handle it, the Mother Lode should visit Dorothy in KS in a month. So, let's work on that beast!

Round 1 primer complete, hit the bevels and a few ugly spots with spot putty. And sand. Ugly duckling photo:



Somebody asked about retention. Take that little centering ring star, drill a hole in the center, install #10-24 T-nut, dremel it all until it fits. Dry fit:



That nutty assembly got epoxied in place with some leftover high-temp epoxy from the Mac Pappy build thread.

Determine Trim Scheme. Kids helped, I'll blame the chicken scratching on them. :wink:



The 30" long BT-7.51" Loc airframes get a coat of thin CA on the ends of the tubes to seal them. Ends are sanded smooth, and first one is covered in Monokote. In general, I tend to cover Loc/Paper rockets in Monokote or Ultracote instead of painting. Way less work, IMO, equal or nicer results, adds considerable strength to the airframe, and makes it waterproof.



Hoping to get one more round of sand and primer on the tri-motor fin assembly and then paint it this week. Planning to cover the additional two tubes and start gluing it all together!
 
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