VICTORY!!!

[evil ed]

Easy does it guys and gals. Don't gloat too soon or loudly.

The ruling is good news for HPR and the hobby and it provides some relief, for now. I don't want to rain on the parade BUT this doesn't mean it's all over FOREVER. That's not the way it works when you are dealing with the Feds. They may pull back and regroup or come at it a different way but they are far from dead and like Freddy, they can, and most likely will, return in an altered form.

As someone who works hand in hand with a branch of the Feds I can tell you that you never really have them by the short hairs, they'll shave their entire body and cover themselves with baby oil if need be to get loose, and they will never die no matter how much water you drench them with.

Between the lines what I see is the judge telling them is how to change the rules so they can win. It's a simple matter of will the dog finally let the bone go, or is there vendetta enough remaining to catch a second wind and come again. They do after all have forever to try and they won't run out of money.

For now it's great, congratulations to TRA/NAR and those who fought so long to see this day. HPR has won a major battle but the war may not be over just yet, it's a TKO as far as they are concerned. Did they wave a white flag or say the word surrender? If not, and even if they did, don't bet your M motors on it.

HPR flyers still need to cross every t, dot every eye and give no reason to justify any type of extra scrutiny. Fly smart, fly safely. Obey the regs and codes.

Stay alert at your launches and watch the sheep. Some of them may be kin to Wylie Coyote.

Verna

Between the lines I see something completely different. I see a Judge that is not happy with BATFE. The language, when taken altogether, reflects his view on this matter. My interpretation is that unless they can return A or B, they had better not show up with anything else.

One thing I will agree with completely is that we must be vigilant. Image is'nt everything, but it counts an awful lot. Experience has demonstrated the expertise their spin doctors have with smoke and mirrors. We MUST make sure we don't supply them with the smoke! All they need is one bad HPR (or even a bad enough MPR) accident for them to sway public opinion in the press.

We deserve the opportunity to party, maybe even gloat a little considering what this hobby has been put through. We now have a responsibility to our fellow hobbyist, and to the future of our hobby.

Evil Ed

 

[jj94]

There is no limit. Basically your grandma can buy an M motor and store it in her cookie jar.

APCP is no longer regulated by the ATF.

What does it mean to the TRA/NAR certification program? think about it.

So if I'm correct, as of now, we're allowed to buy/store G75's without an LEUP but not G104's or G339's due to impulse limitations?

 

[Fade_to_Black]

According to my wife (she use to be a lawyer- had trouble shedding her skin )
this states that they can re-instate the rules IF:

A) They can prove that AP IS an explosive (fat chance- they couldn't prove it in the last 9 years).

OR

B) Congress grants them the authority over AP (Getting them to do this and get it out of committee would be like hearding cats! Besides, who on the hill wants to be seen as a friend of ATF?).

I think we got 'em by the short hairs this time!

This is basically what Ken Good said on the TRA list. They will be given a chance to appeal, but in order to win they have to come up with new evidence that APCP is in fact explosive, which, as Ed says, will be practically impossible. They can't just throw their old arguments back at the judge and expect a different outcome.

 

[JJI]

So here is the big question - which online vendors are now selling HPR reloads without the need for a LEUP???

 

[Fade_to_Black]

So if I'm correct, as of now, we're allowed to buy/store G75's without an LEUP but not G104's or G339's due to impulse limitations?

What impulse limitations? AFAIK you can buy any motor that you are certified to buy. Are the G104 and G339's considered high power? If so, you'd have to be L1 to purchase them I'd guess, but storage wouldn't be any different than any other high power motor.

 

[dlb]

OMG I think I'll read this over and over again.
After Nine years we can resume close to ATF free.

 

[NJnike]

Looks like I made a good decision getting my L1 certification last month

 

[Green Arrow]

GREAT!!! You don't need an LEUP to buy a HPR motor!!! SUPER I'm going shopping!

but wait............... You need still need an LEUP for the Black Powder (because it is not being used for it's intended use, but not for the storage of the BP.)(unless you go CO2) and you need an LEUP for the ignitors and BIG class 2 explosive box to safely store the ignitor, right?

So....... where did we gain any ground?

I might have to read through the whole ruling first.....

 

[jj94]

What impulse limitations? AFAIK you can buy any motor that you are certified to buy. Are the G104 and G339's considered high power? If so, you'd have to be L1 to purchase them I'd guess, but storage wouldn't be any different than any other high power motor.

Hmm. I thought there were impulse limitations, and that only L1 can buy and/or use those motors, plus a few more out there.

 

[Fade_to_Black]

Hmm. I thought there were impulse limitations, and that only L1 can buy and/or use those motors, plus a few more out there.

hmmmmm... they might be. If that's the case, you'd have to be L1, but you won't need a LEUP any more. No storage limitations either.

 

[Bravo52]

The other big bummer is other governmental organizations like "Homeland Security". I'm afraid they can and will attack this from another angle. That is why we need to be conservative with our approach to "deregulation".

Oh and one more thing......it will be interesting to see how the media plays this off (if they actually report it). In my opinion, they could do more damage than BATF ever dreamed of...... they have a proven track record for that......it is evident every morning when you wake up.

 

[Donaldsrockets]

Now I can grab some of them redesigned G69 Skids.

I should light up a sparky and celebrate but my flying buddy and local TRA prefect would most likely frown upon that!!!

 

[kgholloway]

Igniters and e-matches (one and the same in ATF's eyes) are not affected. Legally a LEUP is still required.

read this:
https://www.quickburst.net/Letter From ATF.pdf

This letter proves that all igniters are regulated.

Maybe the legal team needs to take on another battle?

Actually this will be a very interesting question to resolve. As I recall QuickBurst ignitors consisted of a nichrome heating element surrounded by cast APCP. If APCP can no longer be considered an explosive, and obviously nichrome is not an explosive, can the BATFE still regulate them?

Ken Holloway
NAR #78336, L-II

 

[Microspeed]

The other big bummer is other governmental organizations like "Homeland Security". I'm afraid they can and will attack this from another angle. That is why we need to be conservative with our approach to "deregulation".

Oh and one more thing......it will be interesting to see how the media plays this off (if they actually report it). In my opinion, they could do more damage than BATF ever dreamed of...... they have a proven track record for that......it is evident every morning when you wake up.

The first real "news bit" that came up when I searched for "ATF" in Google News:

https://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/16/2139211

 

[Delta-IV]

There is no limit. Basically your grandma can buy an M motor and store it in her cookie jar.

APCP is no longer regulated by the ATF.

What does it mean to the TRA/NAR certification program? think about it.

I personally hope NAR and TRA continue the current certification process so that we can self regulate ourselves and not be seen as hap hazard. If you certify, then you should be allowed the privledges to purchase and store your motors safely.

I do see where some type of limiting may need to be implemented. Who wants to see some idiot go on-line and purchase a hundred motors so he can play with them.

 

[jadebox]

Igniters and e-matches (one and the same in ATF's eyes) are not affected. Legally a LEUP is still required.

read this:
https://www.quickburst.net/Letter From ATF.pdf

This letter proves that all igniters are regulated.

Maybe the legal team needs to take on another battle?

We do need our attorneys to advise us on the igniter situation. In the past, the ATF has not regulated igniters for exempt rocket motors. Now that all of our motors are exempt, they shouldn't be able to justify regulating our igniters.

-- Roger

 

[DAllen]

I AM DOING MY HAPPY DANCE. REJOICE AND BE GLAD THAT I DO NOT OWN A WEB CAM TO SUBJECT ALL OF YOU TO SEEING IT.



-Dave

 

[shreadvector]

All of the posts about the G33 make me really think that a written exam should be required for an L1....

The G33 had more than 62.5 grams of propellant. Therfore it was not a "Model Rocket Motor" per the N.F.P.A. limits.

Any motor that exceeds any of the defined limits of a "Model Rocket Motor" is no longer a "Model Rocket Motor" and must be treated as a "High Power Rocket Motor" even if the total impulse is G range or lower.

So, selling the G33 caused lots of problems with consumers who could not understand this simple concept. They would show up at launches where Model Rockets were permitted (by fire permit and landowner permission/permits) and get upset that they were not allowed to launch their G33. Doing so would void the insurance for the launch and violate the permits.

https://www.doug79.com/stuff/HPR_metric9c.pdf

F.A.A., CPSC, DOT and N.F.P.A. are not affected by this ruling. But it is still a VERY good ruling.

 

[quickburst]

Actually this will be a very interesting question to resolve. As I recall QuickBurst ignitors consisted of a nichrome heating element surrounded by cast APCP. If APCP can no longer be considered an explosive, and obviously nichrome is not an explosive, can the BATFE still regulate them?

Ken Holloway
NAR #78336, L-II

Yes, because it's still an igniter.

 

[quickburst]

So if I'm correct, as of now, we're allowed to buy/store G75's without an LEUP but not G104's or G339's due to impulse limitations?

No, you can legally purchase any APCP motor you can afford and store it any way you see fit.

If you are attending and flying at a TRA or NAR insured launch you will be limited to purchasing/using motors within your certification level. You also are allowed to purchase motors required for the next cert level.

On the other hand, if you are flying at an uninsured launch, you can legally purchase and fly any APCP motor available.

Now is the time to support TRA/NAR to the fullest.

 

[quickburst]

We do need our attorneys to advise us on the igniter situation. In the past, the ATF has not regulated igniters for exempt rocket motors. Now that all of our motors are exempt, they shouldn't be able to justify regulating our igniters.

-- Roger

I hope they do resolve the situation. The ATF has been selective in enforcement of the igniter issue. Some companies make and sell them without regulation. Other companies (QuickBurst) is not allowed this same priviledge.

The letter maks it clear that all igniters are regulated, even those that come with unregulated motors.

I'm hoping that the legal team can resolve the igniter issue.

 

[rsynoski]

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure what the ATF is doing to QuickBurst is illegal. Government agencies are not allowed to give preferential treatment to one vendor over another. It is a matter of restraint of trade.

I hope they do resolve the situation. The ATF has been selective in enforcement of the igniter issue. Some companies make and sell them without regulation. Other companies (QuickBurst) is not allowed this same priviledge.

The letter maks it clear that all igniters are regulated, even those that come with unregulated motors.

I'm hoping that the legal team can resolve the igniter issue.

 

[MysticalRockets]

I think this was the best line in the decision. Completely sets the tone for it.

"Here, the agency's shortcoming was its failure to articulate any rationale for finding that the relevant and significant evidence in the record that conflicted with its position was unpersuasive, which it seemingly out-of-hand dismissed merely because it was contrary to the agency's ultimate conclusion."

 

[MarkM]

On the other hand, if you are flying at an uninsured launch, you can legally purchase and fly any APCP motor available.

But who will sell you that motor which is out of your certification level?? I would hope no one! Just because APCP is longer classified as an explosive does not make the NFPA codes and regulations set forth by NAR/TRA as to who can use/buy HPR motors invalid.

This ruling is of monumental importance to the continued growth of this hobby, however, all it does is provide the convenience of purchasing and storing any size motor without the government interference of a LEUP. It doesn't change WHO can purchase/fly said motor.

 

[quickburst]

But who will sell you that motor which is out of your certification level?? I would hope no one! Just because APCP is longer classified as an explosive does not make the NFPA codes and regulations set forth by NAR/TRA as to who can use/buy HPR motors invalid.

This ruling is of monumental importance to the continued growth of this hobby, however, all it does is provide the convenience of purchasing and storing any size motor without the government interference of a LEUP. It doesn't change WHO can purchase/fly said motor.

I agree, for the most part.

Remember Outlaw launches are not regulated by NAR or TRA. There are no rules.

I'm not saying I support the idea or agree with it, I'm only saying that the situation exists. Trust me, there are vendors in existance that would sell an M to your grandma.

Lets support TRA and NAR for the work they do.

 

[troj]

I agree, for the most part.

Remember Outlaw launches are not regulated by NAR or TRA. There are no rules.

I'm not saying I support the idea or agree with it, I'm only saying that the situation exists. Trust me, there are vendors in existance that would sell an M to your grandma.

Lets support TRA and NAR for the work they do.

NFPA 1127 doesn't allow that, so in many states, those vendors are out of compliance with state laws.

That said, the clubs I know of that are independent (with their own insurance, such as MDRA) still require that you fly in accordance with your NAR or TRA certification level. They don't want someone with zero experience coming out and flying an N shredfest that puts people at risk any more than the rest of us do.

-Kevin

 

[Warren]

How does the impact the Hazmat classification, if at all, for APCP?

 

[MarkM]

How does the impact the Hazmat classification, if at all, for APCP?

It doesn't. DOT controls shipping of hazardous materials and the how they define a hazardous material. APCP will still be classified a 1.4 hazard for shipping purposes.

 

[Uncrichie]

GREAT!!! You don't need an LEUP to buy a HPR motor!!! SUPER I'm going shopping!

but wait............... You need still need an LEUP for the Black Powder (because it is not being used for it's intended use, but not for the storage of the BP.)(unless you go CO2) and you need an LEUP for the ignitors and BIG class 2 explosive box to safely store the ignitor, right?

So....... where did we gain any ground?

I might have to read through the whole ruling first.....

Some ground was gained but unfortunately not enough. I think you'll find a magazine for blackpowder is still required. Based on the premise its still a low explosive with its use not intended in a firearm? So your ignitors won't be lonely in the magazine they can have a can of BP for company!

 

[Warren]

It doesn't. DOT controls shipping of hazardous materials and the how they define a hazardous material. APCP will still be classified a 1.4 hazard for shipping purposes.

But 1.4 is an "Explosives" moniker... And it seems the ruling is that APCP is not an explosive?