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mikeyd

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Why is it that we have a tendancy to bite the hands that feed us?
While we need to hold vendors accountable for their product and its performance, we have a tendancy to demand more than what is implied, or due, and then we pile on! It is amazing that we have any product at all, the way we treat them. While they need us, the consumer, we need them as well. Even now when we have an abudance of choices, even loosing one, can cause us to slip back down where we are left with no choices, and only what they give us. It is great that we have the competition between vendors that we do, but I would caution not to pile on, as this could seem as attacks, and anyone who perceives that they are being attacked, reponds defensivly. Lets just be glad for the choices we have, buy the ones we want, and have fun with this, after all, for the consumer this is just a hobby, and it supposed to be fun!
Ok rant mode off, Back to flying!

Mike Dickinson
 

Garoq

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Why is it that we have a tendancy to bite the hands that feed us?
While we need to hold vendors accountable for their product and its performance, we have a tendancy to demand more than what is implied, or due, and then we pile on! It is amazing that we have any product at all, the way we treat them. While they need us, the consumer, we need them as well. Even now when we have an abudance of choices, even loosing one, can cause us to slip back down where we are left with no choices, and only what they give us. It is great that we have the competition between vendors that we do, but I would caution not to pile on, as this could seem as attacks, and anyone who perceives that they are being attacked, reponds defensivly. Lets just be glad for the choices we have, buy the ones we want, and have fun with this, after all, for the consumer this is just a hobby, and it supposed to be fun!
Ok rant mode off, Back to flying!

Mike Dickinson
Mike,

Thanks for bringing this up.

This will be my last post on TRF and all other public forums.

For those interested in keeping up with AeroTech news please visit the AeroTech website at http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com or our Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/AeroTech-Consumer-Aerospace/159005948954

Signing off.
 

AKPilot

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Obviously I've missed something. Can someone fill me in?
 

The EGE

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I realize that some here do tend to hate on AT, but I really hope Gary comes back. I like being able to communicate with vendors, and I'd much rather do it here than Facebook.

I try to treat the vendors here with respect, because they are the ones that make all my fun possible. Without AT, we would not have anything close to the hobby we have today.
 

MarkII

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I mean, really...

MarkII
 
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MysticalRockets

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I have no clue what this is about, and I really don't care.

I have no issues with any AT product in any way, and I have always gotten great service from them.

And Gary, I've been following you on Facebook. Nice job there so far.
 

rocketsmith

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I think a couple of posts back indicate the issue here. I have only been checking this site out for a month or so and I see the same few guys posting their negative and self aggrandizing opinions all the time. I have talked to several of the guys in my club and they just laughed when I mentioned the things that go on here. Nobody I respect will have anything to do with the petty B.S. that pervades this site. There seems to be a pattern of a couple of good posts then a digression into highly subjective bashing and piling on. The vendors have a couple of problems and suddenly there's a thread dedicated to how they are destroying the hobby with thier discompassionate profiteering. Hey, I have an idea, stop buying their product if it doesn't meet your expectations.
We can't all get along because the problem people don't believe they are a problem. Great... now I'm being the negative jerk. I gotta get out of here.
 
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MysticalRockets

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I've had my issues with the site management here. I won't go into them now.

But I do agree, the vendor bashing that goes on around here is a bit too much.
 

mjennings

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yeah now that I think about it, things have swung a bit negative again. It's one thing to say my opinion of product X by company Y is low because of Z. Many are receptive to this, but there has been attempts to shame vendors lately over perceived quality issues.

I can't say I've purchased from every vendor or probably even half but seems to me the vast majority of people have good things to say about the vast majority of vendors.

Guess it goes back to the 1 bad review cancels 10 AttaBoys.

Hope Gary at AT changes his mind and comes back, I don't fly a lot of composites right now but do like to see what they are up to.
 

Queeg500

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yeah, hmmm.
a week ago people were righteously happy to throw rocks at Sherri of Sherri's Hot Rockets for not responding to Comet's tenuous claims. but today, a lot of people here are saying lay off Gary for publically walking off the stage when consumers reasonably complain about his, at times, defective product and bad customer service...

defending Gary only makes sense if anyone can invest in aerotech...
 
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mikeyd

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I still do not think people here get it. This is not about the rant against Aerotech, this is about the mob mentality against anyone. I am not against raising a complaint, or legitimate question to the vendors, just wonder why everyone else seems to pile on, and attack, when they see blood drawn. What happened to our civility? Sheri was attacked, Estes has been, Quest, and Aerotech, but there have been others. Sure there may have been valid questions that started this, but when the mob sees someone backed into a corner they jump in. I am just asking all to think first, and not join the mob. We need our vendors, and they need us. None of us should want there to be fewer vendors, or consumers. Sure as a consumer vote with your dollars, but maintain civility, otherwise vendors leave, and then we all loose. I have my moments and have been tempted to jump in many times, and I have said too much already. Lets all go have some fun!

Mike Dickinson


yeah, hmmm.
a week ago people were righteously happy to throw rocks at Sherri of Sherri's Hot Rockets for not responding to Comet's tenuous claims. but today, a lot of people here are saying lay off Gary for publically walking off the stage when consumers reasonably complain about his, at times, defective product and bad customer service...

defending Gary only makes sense if anyone can invest in aerotech...
 

sunward

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...righteously happy to throw rocks at Sherri of Sherri's Hot Rockets for not responding to Comet's tenuous claims..
What tenuous claims?

mikeyd has a point. People do pile on. The difference with Aerotech seems to be the tone of one poster.
 

Queeg500

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Comet's claims are tenuous because, of the 7 months it took him/her to figure what to do and the fact that the USPS does not guarantee delivery INSIDE a foreign country to the final address destination and this is why a lot US sellers refuse to sell overseas. it is too easy to claim a package was not received when it acutally was.

Not sure if you did but I actually read this thread: http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=7153

and that's why I think any vendor should face the fire when the fire is justified instead of picking up their toys and walking away. anyone can do that. seems reasonable don't you think?
 
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sunward

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Comet's claims are tenuous because, of the 7 months it took him/her to figure what to do and the fact that the USPS does not guarantee ....
You do not know the facts in the case. It didn't take 7 months. A large package has tracking on it. He brought up the issue before
http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=4362
and other places the issue was brought up.
...and that's why I think any vendor should face the fire when the fire is justified instead of picking up their toys and walking away. anyone can do that. seems reasonable don't you think?
The purpose of this thread was Vendor Abuse in forums, in general.. One of the main poster in the above thread was way too harsh. I have never said the vendor was right or wrong.
 

MysticalRockets

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yeah, hmmm.
a week ago people were righteously happy to throw rocks at Sherri of Sherri's Hot Rockets for not responding to Comet's tenuous claims. but today, a lot of people here are saying lay off Gary for publically walking off the stage when consumers reasonably complain about his, at times, defective product and bad customer service...

defending Gary only makes sense if anyone can invest in aerotech...

I didn't make ANY comments about Sheri. At her request. Wasn't worth it.

But this is getting to be a pattern.
 

DAllen

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Okay...Everyone here needs to be LESS sensitive. EVERY vendor in EVERY industry is going to get criticism in public forums, on the phone, in the mail, etc. Some of it is justified, some of it is idiotic. It's just a fact of life. Then some people are going to want to contribute their $.02 - like me - ;). This too is a fact of life.

I think how a vendor responds to criticism is really an opportunity to shine and make themselves look good by taking the high road and responding in a positive manner. AT is utterly clueless when it comes to PR. Just look up all the posts recently made by ATIPR on rocketryplanet.com for a face-palming good time. Sheri isn't much better with her little recent rant over on RP about her "banned" TRF avatar. That thread was glossed a "train wreck" by ddmobley. Look, both of these vendors are good and have some awesome products but one of these vendors has swore off public forums altogether and the other has been banned from TRF. They are getting "piled on" because they are not helping themselves out.

Wanna talk about getting piled on by customers? I used to work in customer service for a large trash company. Let me tell you, there is nothing like the wrath of a soccer mom when the can full of diaper-genie droppings doesn't get picked up on time. These little whines and rants by people here are NOTHING compared to what I used to hear there on a hourly basis. As a vendor, you have to learn to deal with it which is why I am not a vendor. :p

-Dave
 

stickershock23

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Dave that was very well said..

I think it gets that way when there is a perceived problem from one or more persons point of view. Then people want to make that point know. weather its to help or hurt is then mistaken. Then the real pile on comes. some are offended because it may seem hurtful some pile on because it may have happened to them .

That proves right there that something is "UP" if there wasn't some sort of fight over an issue, then it wouldn't be an issue.

I guess what I am saying is how do you get your feelings known without betting some butthurt? you think about what you want to say over and over, you finally say it then half the people are with you and half hate you for it. it causes a fight, and the worse part, what you started to rant about is ignored. so all you have left is the fight.

I didn't read all of the Sheri's hot rocket thing so this is an uneducated point of view. someone had a problem with thier order, she seemed to ignoe it and tell them its not her problem... the fact the customer is unhappy isn't the big problem the fact that sheri ignored it may have been. Dose that make sense.

Again I am sorry if I bashed anyone, i really didn't mean to hurt anyone, I just wanted to get my feelings out, and hope that somthing gets done about it.
When I said bad things about Quest, you guys pointed out I was harsh and then Quest (and others) helped me fix the "problem" that didn't become a Bash. I also learned alot and apologized. That was a bad thing turned good.

YOu ignore a problem and its gonna fester and get worse you take it on and fix things and it gets better... trust me I know.

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=7350&highlight=stickershock
 

luke strawwalker

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Okay...Everyone here needs to be LESS sensitive. EVERY vendor in EVERY industry is going to get criticism in public forums, on the phone, in the mail, etc. Some of it is justified, some of it is idiotic. It's just a fact of life. Then some people are going to want to contribute their $.02 - like me - ;). This too is a fact of life.

I think how a vendor responds to criticism is really an opportunity to shine and make themselves look good by taking the high road and responding in a positive manner. AT is utterly clueless when it comes to PR. Just look up all the posts recently made by ATIPR on rocketryplanet.com for a face-palming good time. Sheri isn't much better with her little recent rant over on RP about her "banned" TRF avatar. That thread was glossed a "train wreck" by ddmobley. Look, both of these vendors are good and have some awesome products but one of these vendors has swore off public forums altogether and the other has been banned from TRF. They are getting "piled on" because they are not helping themselves out.

Wanna talk about getting piled on by customers? I used to work in customer service for a large trash company. Let me tell you, there is nothing like the wrath of a soccer mom when the can full of diaper-genie droppings doesn't get picked up on time. These little whines and rants by people here are NOTHING compared to what I used to hear there on a hourly basis. As a vendor, you have to learn to deal with it which is why I am not a vendor. :p

-Dave
AMEN and amen! DAVE gets it!!!! I don't really understand why so many people around here DON'T...

Look, as a businessman, having worked in customer service industries as both employee and self-employed providing services, and as a retail customer for both personal and business (you end up doing EVERYTHING in agriculture, sooner or later!) I can tell you this... IF YOU CAN'T TAKE A LITTLE HEAT NOW AND THEN YOU DON'T BELONG IN BUSINESS!!! Sorry, but that's just life, reality bites and sometimes it bites everyone! I've had customers make unreasonable demands, try to change the arrangements of the deal midstream, and all sorts of garbage. It goes with the territory. Some people are nice and some are tools... that's life. BUT, WHEN I'M the SELLER or SERVICE PROVIDER, I have a 'duty' to stick to the high road, attempt to satisfy the customer and resolve any issues to our mutual satisfaction and to hold up my end of the bargain and deliver what I promised, and part of that is making sure I don't OVERPROMISE what I plan to deliver. IMHO anybody who wants to sell something who doesn't want to play by those rules or with that mindset should do everybody a favor and just stay home. Even then, you're NOT GOING TO PLEASE EVERYBODY and some folks just aren't happy unless you bend over and grab your ankles for them, and I personally won't do that just to keep someone who's a jerk happy, and I don't expect any other vendor to do that either. BUT KNOWINGLY delivering substandard product advertised as 'top of the line' or not delivering it at all after you have the money is just plain WRONG no matter how you slice it... and that goes for ANYTHING from something that costs 2 cents a dozen all the way up to moon rockets and everything in between.

Look, if you're in business, a certain amount of professionalism is required. Stick to the high road and you'll never go wrong. Admitting a problem exists is half the battle; how you address it is the other half and at your discretion. A vendor attacking others verbally by making innuendos and insults is just NOT acceptable, or shouldn't be. People don't like 'dead silence' when their money has been handed over-- nor do vendors have to explain every single thought and issue dealing with something; it's acceptable and easy to say, "yes, we hear you, this is something we're looking into and hope to resolve soon. Thank you for your support of XYZ co." I've had business people try to screw me over, get insulting or haughty, or downright nasty, and ya know what?? I DON'T DO BUSINESS WITH THEM ANYMORE. In fact, folks like that, I go out of my way to AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE! I do more business with a tractor dealer 100 miles away than one 20 miles away because of this sort of thing. There are some folks running businesses here IN TOWN that I SIMPLY REFUSE to do business with because of their attitude-- I would LITERALLY drive 100 miles or more to get the exact same product/service before I would spend MY MONEY to buy the product here and SUPPORT THEM, because of their attitude! It took me awhile to figure out I didn't have to put up with being treated like a 3rd class step-monkey-- my money is just as green as anybody elses and I just DON'T PUT UP WITH THAT CRAP! If someone else chooses to, good for them, but I DO NOT.

Anyway, whatever floats your boat... some people like getting kicked around, and that's their right. Some people kick others when they really don't have cause to, and that's just life. But, if you're gonna work in the kitchen, you have to take a little heat now and then-- it just goes with the territory...

JMHO! OL JR :)
 

RangerStl

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It causes a fight, and the worse part, what you started to rant about is ignored. so all you have left is the fight.
Mark, I think you may have hit it right there. One must be a bit careful where they rant in the Internet age. The effect you describe is kinda like throwing a big rock in a pond.

You make a splash, it ripples through the whole pond, then the oogie, nasty stuff on the bottom starts to float to the top. If the original ranter is a little ticked in his tone, that tone gets magnified across the whole community, and before you know it there are a lot of "Negative Waves". People are mad at the "target" of the original post, other people are mad at the "accuser", the rest are mad at everyone for fighting.

And you admitted that some of your comments contributed to it; I agree with you on that. I also appreciate your apologies.

There have been plenty of complaints on this and other forums in the past that have not mushroomed into nuclear warfare, but then again there have been some that did.

Everyone has an idea of what customer service should be, everyone has an impression of what their online experience should be. The thing that determines what happens to a situation (online discussion or otherwise) is how people handle it when things are *not* as they think they should be...

Now, *IF* Gary has left the forums because of the gang mentality and *IF* there really is a quality issue... are our concerns as customers more or less likely to be heard now?

My foot hurts, and I think I just heard a gunshot. :(
 

FlyBoy

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Most industries won't reply to message boards for just this reason, if you want a dialog with vendors then you have to give them a certain measure of respect. I also noticed that the anonymity of the internet comes into play, I've seen things said in threads here that would get you knock on your butt if you said them in person, if you don't have the self control to post civilly it might be time to shut up.
 
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