Using rail guns for orbit? =advanced=

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GL-P

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This is out of the realm of out rockets but I thought it fits best in here.

Would it be possible to achieve orbit with a poayload such as 2 people to orbit with a railgun? I know it wold require vast amounts of power but don't know how much. I know a tuned railgun can fire a projectile at hypersonic speeds. Would it be possible to attain enough electical energy to be feasible? Would require less maintenance than a rocket launch

Thanks! (just pondering!)
 
Not surprisingly, this idea has been around for quite some time. It's been used in several different Sci-Fi stories, and the government has looked into it on multiple occassions. I did a research paper on it back in college, but I don't have it anymore. Basically, the government proposal was to find a large, gently sloping area near the mountains on which to build an extremely long ramp with a very gradual increase in angle. The problem is simplified to a certain extent by specifying only non-living cargo, since you could impart a much heavier "kick" to the launching sled without worrying about putting to much g-load on your passengers. It was almost a given that it would require an enormous amount of energy to provide power through the length of the rail/track, and the most reasonable way to get it would be through a small nuclear facility.

The bottom line of the study was that it is possible, and may happen in the future, but at the current time, the power requirements and construction and infrastructure requirements would be far greater than our current space launch systems.

But that doesn't mean it can't be done by someone, sometime... perhaps even someone from TRF!

WW
 
Originally posted by GL-P
This is out of the realm of out rockets but I thought it fits best in here.

Would it be possible to achieve orbit with a poayload such as 2 people to orbit with a railgun? I know it wold require vast amounts of power but don't know how much. I know a tuned railgun can fire a projectile at hypersonic speeds. Would it be possible to attain enough electical energy to be feasible? Would require less maintenance than a rocket launch

Thanks! (just pondering!)

It'd have to go fast enough to plow through the atmosphere after release without slowing down below orbital speed. It'd also have to carry enough fuel to circularize the orbit, or else its perigee will be back where it started. The first would mean it'd need awesome ablative shielding, the second that it'd have to be very heavy and require all the more energy.

And we haven't yet started on the G forces. Squoosh.

Assisted launch is still a possibility. Here's a fairly recent paper by a NASA scientist on the subject that's being considered for the SOARS project.

Crud. Too big even zipped. Email me if you want a copy.
 
Originally posted by GL-P
This is out of the realm of out rockets but I thought it fits best in here.

Would it be possible to achieve orbit with a poayload such as 2 people to orbit with a railgun? I know it wold require vast amounts of power but don't know how much. I know a tuned railgun can fire a projectile at hypersonic speeds. Would it be possible to attain enough electical energy to be feasible? Would require less maintenance than a rocket launch

Thanks! (just pondering!)

The short answer is no.

Any kind of gun, rail guns included, by their nature are high acceleration devices. Humans simply can not survive more than a few 10's of G's sustained. Some trained pilots have withstood 17 G's for 2 minutes! That's a lot.

Orbital velocity is ~25,600 fps, and at 17 G's that's a minimum of 47 seconds acceleration (not allowing for any extra velocity to overcome the ernormous atmospheric drag that you would encounter moving at 17,500 mph in the lower atmosphere!). A gun barrel that would provide this acceleration would have to be 114 miles long!

Rail guns are not low maintenance devices. 25 years ago, everytime you fired a railgun, you had to totally rebuild it. Improvements have been made over the years, however rail erosion is still an issue, as are many other parameters.

Since you asked, the minimum energy required to put an object into orbit is simply E = 1/2 m V^2. In meteric units, orbital velocity is 7800 m/s, so if you assume a really minimal mass of 10 metric tons, 10000 kg, the energy is 0.5 * 10000 * 7800 ^2 = 3.04E11 Joules or 304 GIGAjoules! Assuming 100% efficiency, that an average electrical power of 6500 MW, or the entire electrical output of ~ 10 medium sized commercial power plants.

https://www.astronautix.com/ is a good website for rocket information. Check out gun launched.

Bob Krech
 
Rail guns are not low maintenance devices. 25 years ago, everytime you fired a railgun, you had to totally rebuild it. Improvements have been made over the years, however rail erosion is still an issue, as are many other parameters.

Relatively speaking they are low maintenance. I have read about university railguns having to replace the rail very often because of the curd that gets on it.

I forgot about those Gs. Gee thanks guys (ha ha!) :kill:

Alternative launch techniques are always interesting. Anyone heard about using spinning satellites to catapult cargo at the speed of light? Basically a spinning satellite with a long cable grabs a payload and releases it properly to be caught by another catapult. Pretty simple but the timing has to be perfect.
 
Originally posted by GL-P
Anyone heard about using spinning satellites to catapult cargo at the speed of light? Basically a spinning satellite with a long cable grabs a payload and releases it properly to be caught by another catapult. Pretty simple but the timing has to be perfect.

Sorry but that won't work either.

There's a lot of psuedoscientific schemes out there being proposed by sharpies looking for money. They all violate some of the laws of physics, but on the surface sound good.

If you do some homework and some math and you can prove they can't work.

Bob Krech
 
Speaking of high G's, I've read some sci-fi stuff that mentioned floating the passengers in liquid to make the G's survivable. Would this actually work?

One particular novel that comes to mind is "Dragon's Egg", about a mission to put a station in orbit around a neutron star. Great story, lot of "hard science", but it's been a long time since I read it so I don't recall all the details.
 
Originally posted by Ray Dunakin
Speaking of high G's, I've read some sci-fi stuff that mentioned floating the passengers in liquid to make the G's survivable. Would this actually work?

One particular novel that comes to mind is "Dragon's Egg", about a mission to put a station in orbit around a neutron star. Great story, lot of "hard science", but it's been a long time since I read it so I don't recall all the details.
 
Putting people or any organisms in water greatly reduces the force on them. they cant be just in a pool of water, they have to be in a contained area, like a large baggy. I have herd of guys launching frogs in rockets when they were kids using the bag of water. Basically all it does is convert the Gee's into PSI which is applied to all sides of the object, not just in one direction.

Also i have herd it from a number of different places about the "space elevator" there was an article in a popular science not to long ago. If your not familiar with the design, it consists of a space anchor, thousands of miles out in space. this is tethered to the earth by a......tether, made of micro tubes. it is anchors to the earth along the equator, and as the earth makes a rotation every 24 hours, the space anchor spins along with it, held out by centripetal force. then from here satellites can climb up the tether into space powered by a laser being beamed up from the ground. then the satellites can detach on the top and assume there own orbit. I dont think its ment to carry humans into space but if they were going to go through all the trouble of building the thing, they can save money in the long run to have it carry people back and forth from a space station or something.
 
Problem with the space elevator is that the nano tubes are dangersous to human health. Supposedly they can go right through a human cell
 
Originally posted by GL-P
Problem with the space elevator is that the nano tubes are dangersous to human health. Supposedly they can go right through a human cell

Where did you get that idea about carbon nanotubes?

The problems with the space elevator are many, but that's not one of them.

No one has a clue how to make large quantities of carbon nanotubes, and cheaply? Then they have to be fabricated into something like a 50,000 mile long belt.

The environmental issues such as space debris, micro-meteorites, and atomic oxygen erosion of the belt has not been addressed, nor has a feasable method of delivering power to the crawlers been proposed.

It's smoke and mirrors and a bit of hucksterism all bundled together to separate stupid investors from their money.

Bob Krech
 
Where did you get that idea about carbon nanotubes?

in a recent experiment, scientists put buckyballs in an aquarium and the fish got brain damage.

nanotubes are not buckyballs but still we do not know enough about either.

Wired article

here
 
Originally posted by cls
in a recent experiment, scientists put buckyballs in an aquarium and the fish got brain damage.

nanotubes are not buckyballs but still we do not know enough about either.

Wired article

here
\

Thanks for the reference.

None of the work has been published in a peer reviewed journal, and the evidence of brain damage is indirect at best. A juvenile large mouth bass put into a 2 1/2 gallon aquarium with 2 others, might exhibit some stress under normal circumstances when confined in this maner.

Even the investigator states that much more work has to be done before any conclusions can be drawn. This quick 2 day study seems like a quick and dirty experiment to get some data for a grant proposal.

Bob Krech
 
Originally posted by bobkrech
\

Thanks for the reference.

None of the work has been published in a peer reviewed journal, and the evidence of brain damage is indirect at best. A juvenile large mouth bass put into a 2 1/2 gallon aquarium with 2 others, might exhibit some stress under normal circumstances when confined in this maner.

Even the investigator states that much more work has to be done before any conclusions can be drawn. This quick 2 day study seems like a quick and dirty experiment to get some data for a grant proposal.

Bob Krech

The study was published in a peer reviewed journal.

https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2004/7021/7021.pdf

What she measured has nothing to do with environmental stress. She measured significant peroxidation of brain tissues. High population density would tend to lower hyperoxides (more waste material from more animals undergoing more oxidation in the environment leaving less to inhale). Thus, her exposure control populations exposed to H2O2 were a good choice. She also had non-exposure controls similarly confined and they showed no effects. The H2O2 exposed showed peroxidation in gill and liver, sites tasked with countering hypreoxide exposure via supreoxide dismutase reactions, but not in the brain which depends on filtering of hyperoxides by the rest of the body in order to prevent damage. As proof of the latter, consider that those brain problems caused by oxidative stress are usually internally generated (i.e neuronal death mediated by MPTP/MPP+ in Parkinsonism). Her study showed that something that could cause oxidative stress problems elsewhere were not nullified by SOD and making it across the blood/brain barrier.

Her comments about it being "just the first step" is a common understated way to say "I was first", and also leading to the inevitable "more work needs to be done". No scientist worth their grant money will ever say "That's enough, we don't need any more work done here".

My work on secondary chemicals from tobacco focused on prevention of MPP+ production from MPTP by preventing oxidation via monoamine oxidase inhibition, and so prevention of damage to the substantia nigra (Parkinson's) required only 6, 12 or 18 hours of exposure to MPTP, followed immediately, 6 hours, or 12 hours by exposure to the hypothetical prevention mechanism, trimethyl naphthoquinone. Measurng cell death required up to 30 days, but measuring the changes in neuronal tissue precursor to it could be done immediately, and the both were shown to correlate. So, I think I can confidently state that I can read her work and evaluate it, and that I find nothing wrong with a two day exposure cycle. I find the fact that statistically significant results were obtained with such short exposure to make it more important, not less. My own work was on the humans, not the mice, and my tests required overnight abstinence for tobacco, testing, smoking a cigarette, and testing again within 15 minutes (the half life of tobacco blood level being 17 minutes). That's some mighty short exposure cycle. I could only test one at a time rather than a bunch at once, but my testing took less than two hours, including taking them across campus for a blood draw. I there'd been 20 of me and 20 EEGs, the data collection would have been done in two days (each subject being tested twice, on different days).

She has 14 first authorships in 6 years, plus 8 non-firsts. That's a paper every 3 months. She's doing something right. Being married to a co-researcher and daughter-in-law of another probably helps. Makes it easier, but not less valid. Reading over her other work, primarily horomonal, I suspect they handed her a project to conduct, while they were the experts in the associated biochemistry, but that doesn't make it less valid either. The primary investigator need not be the primary expert; secondary authors are frequently expert consultants that sometimes never see the apparatus. In her case she went home every night with one of them.

As is common, Wired is a horrible source for reading anything scientific. If they knew what they were doing, they would have associated her gill results with the increase in asthma in people exposed to exhaust from diesel motors, a common source of buckballs in the soot. Their comment about it being unpublished was technically correct in that it hadn't appeared yet. It was in Wired on 7 April 2004, and in Environmental Health Perspectives on 1 July 2004. It was at least "submitted; under review", but was almost certainly completed and accepted, since it was made available online by EHP the same day the Wired article came out. Perhaps the "unpublished" was accurate when the interview, article research and writing was done.
 
DynaSoar: the link doesn't work for me for some reason

The problem is that they may be freaking strong but if something were to hime em hard enough, there would be nanotubes floating in the air.

What i have said is hear-say but from some studies I've hear, there needs to be some more validation
 
Dynasoar

I am a physical chemist with a 30 year paper trail, so I know a bit about publications. I take Wired and many other "science sites" with a good bit of skeptism as they are superficial at best, and you're absolutely correct. If Wired had been with it, they should have connected the work to the asthma induced by diesel soot pollution in the urban environment, and to possible global effects in the marine environment. (Soot pollution in the marine boundary layer is actually pretty high globally from soot generated from bunker oil combustion in large commercial vessels.)

It's good to see that the work is published, since little is known about the toxicity, if any, of bucky balls. I think a lot more work has to be done to prove any effects, pro or con.

Since you're far more knowledgeable on biochemistry than I am, perhaps you could address a few questions I have concerning the controls used in the paper.

In her article, Oberdörster states that the solution of the bucky balls into water was aided by THF. THF is toxic, miscible with water and readily forms peroxides. Bucky balls trap chemicals inside the C60 cage (and if my memory is correct, have been considered as drug deliver devices.), so I wonder if any or all of the observations may have been caused by an artifact of the solvation of the bucky balls. I would like to see experimental control data obtained from water treated with the THF without bucky balls, and pre and post test analysis of the bucky balls for organics and peroxides.

I find the sample size pretty small, with what appears to be a substantial overlap in the error bars of the measurements. I would not refer to the 25th and 75th percentile in such a limited data set. Is this a common practice in that field?

Bob Krech
 
I posted the Wired link because it was accessible (link worked; story readable) to most folks. Science News and New Scientist also carried the story but the links I found seemed to require subscriptions to read the article.

the main point is not whether buckyballs cause issues as listed in the article, but rather that we just don't know enough about nanotech.

I know a chemist who studied water for 50 years and he never stopped learning more about it. such a simple molecule - very deep subject! so more complex molecules would presumably be even deeper ...
 
A linear accelerator could be made to work. The points about power and our pesky thick atmosphere are a couple of the negatives. To launch people into orbit or beyond would take a very long rail to keep the acceleration down to something that would be survivable. It would also need to be located at as high an altitude as possible to get above most of the atmosphere. The rail guns that some universities have put together are aimed at different goals and constraints of size, power, etc.

A good book to read is "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert Heinlein. I can especially reccomend the audiobook, which is excellent. There is a launcher in the story on the moon to transfer wheat grown in tunnel farms down to the starving hoards of a massively overpopulated earth.

For good stories incorporating a space elevator, take a look at the Mars trilogy (Red Mars, Green Mars, and Blue Mars) by Kim Stanley Robinson. The audiobooks are also quite good. Try a search at www.Space.com for the space elevator. There was/is a contest on for a climber to traverse the cable.

I've had the thought of a magnetic assist launch system. I'd have to break the rules about using metal in the rocket since cardboard is not going to get grabbed by a magnetic field. Maybe a pneumatic launch tube could be done. Disneyland lofts their fireworks with air.

Never worry about your ideas being good or bad, just get them out. Panic when you stop coming up with any.
 
Originally posted by wwattles
Basically, the government proposal was to find a large, gently sloping area near the mountains on which to build an extremely long ramp with a very gradual increase in angle.
The government wasn't the only one with this idea. It was actually used in Ace Combat 5, to launch a laser cannon to a space station/space ship called the Arkbird. And while the G's are too great for humans, boxes of supplies, and parts of space stations don't care if they experience 1000 G's, so the railgun, or something like it, could be used for non-living cargo (Which would eliminate the need for the Delta rockets), and we can just stick with the Space Shuttles and the Soyuz space craft for humans and live cargo.
 
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