Updates...

[John Beans]

Just an observation but I’ve never set my JLCR below 300 ft and that was a bit of a nail-biter. Figure 1.5-2 seconds for it to release and the parachute to open (I’ve seen longer) and your rocket has fallen approximately 64ft (if you figure 32ft per sec increasing each second until terminal velocity ~ 120 ft/sec). Granted the descent will begin to slow from the “streamer effect”. But still that gives, ideally, 36 ft for the descent to slow before impact. Pretty narrow margin…. I like the Points System.

In case it helps anyone, the way I approach it is to treat every rocket setup as a new experiment. I'll fly with a 500' release (heavy rocket) or 300' (light rocket, like an Estes Pro Series, RIP) and record the flight once or twice with an AltimeterThree.

That will provide some interesting data:

1. The tumble rate of the ejected-state rocket, which is pretty much impossible to simulate, unless you use a drogue chute, which I typically don't—mostly for simplicity over predictability

2. [Most importantly] The inflation time/distance of the bundling technique I'm using in that rocket

Interestingly, one bit of data that isn't as meaningful is the deceleration time AFTER inflation, which—similar to the tumbling acceleration—is so short as to not matter. In other words, once the chute inflates the rocket abruptly transitions to a new terminal velocity. It is NOT slowing down all the way to the ground, nor is it accelerating very long relative the ground while it tumbles.

You can analyze inflation time by looking at the portion of your altitude graph during descent that is curved. A straight line is a constant speed.



Notice how short that little curved elbow is after inflation. It's almost hard to measure. Most of the delay below 200' (the set altitude here) is the time to unbundle and inflate, not the deceleration time after inflation. The angle of the straight line represents the speed, but when the graph is straight that speed is constant. For this light rocket, my personal goal would be to use up less than 50 feet during inflation.

For me, the release altitude I set is a measure of my confidence in my setup. My typical release altitude once I'm confident of a reliable setup is 200'. Other than maybe being able to see it in the sky longer to locate it, opening higher won't change the landing speed, it will just increase the drift.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you don't make it a personal goal to get your inflation times down to a chute that POPS open at release, it almost doesn't matter what you set the release point to. I've watched and heard stories of bundles that never open after release at over 500' before, especially if the user was using their old tried-and-true wrap-the-shrouds around a rolled-up bundle or got their shrouds twisted or wrapped it up in a blanket that never got pulled away.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

In case it helps anyone, the way I approach it is to treat every rocket setup as a new experiment. I'll fly with a 500' release (heavy rocket) or 300' (light rocket, like an Estes Pro Series, RIP) and record the flight once or twice with an AltimeterThree.

That will provide some interesting data:

1. The tumble rate of the ejected-state rocket, which is pretty much impossible to simulate, unless you use a drogue chute, which I typically don't—mostly for simplicity over predictability

2. [Most importantly] The inflation time/distance of the bundling technique I'm using in that rocket

Interestingly, one bit of data that isn't as meaningful is the deceleration time AFTER inflation, which—similar to the tumbling acceleration—is so short as to not matter. In other words, once the chute inflates the rocket abruptly transitions to a new terminal velocity. It is NOT slowing down all the way to the ground, nor is it accelerating very long relative the ground while it tumbles.

You can analyze inflation time by looking at the portion of your altitude graph during descent that is curved. A straight line is a constant speed.

View attachment 472996

Notice how short that little curved elbow is after inflation. It's almost hard to measure. Most of the delay below 200' (the set altitude here) is the time to unbundle and inflate, not the deceleration time after inflation. The angle of the straight line represents the speed, but when the graph is straight that speed is constant. For this light rocket, my personal goal would be to use up less than 50 feet during inflation.

For me, the release altitude I set is a measure of my confidence in my setup. My typical release altitude once I'm confident of a reliable setup is 200'. Other than maybe being able to see it in the sky longer to locate it, opening higher won't change the landing speed, it will just increase the drift.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you don't make it a personal goal to get your inflation times down to a chute that POPS open at release, it almost doesn't matter what you set the release point to. I've watched and heard stories of bundles that never open after release at over 500' before, especially if the user was using their old tried-and-true wrap-the-shrouds around a rolled-up bundle or got their shrouds twisted or wrapped it up in a blanket that never got pulled away.

It’s been awesome so far. I’m planning to test your marketing slogan. “This is great for windy days and small fields when normally your rocket would drift too far while descending under parachute.”

I’ve been meaning to ask if you have a lost rocket policy? Maybe half price if it lands in the canal or absolutely won’t come out of the tree without an ax?

It did do this weird thing where it wouldn’t respond (including power off) after the second flight. The battery was at full bar but have been playing with it beforehand. When I later plugged it in, I got the red light and now works fine after the green light. There was either a full battery bar or one less.

 

[Philip Tiberius D.]

In case it helps anyone, the way I approach it is to treat every rocket setup as a new experiment. I'll fly with a 500' release (heavy rocket) or 300' (light rocket, like an Estes Pro Series, RIP) and record the flight once or twice with an AltimeterThree.

That will provide some interesting data:

1. The tumble rate of the ejected-state rocket, which is pretty much impossible to simulate, unless you use a drogue chute, which I typically don't—mostly for simplicity over predictability

2. [Most importantly] The inflation time/distance of the bundling technique I'm using in that rocket

Interestingly, one bit of data that isn't as meaningful is the deceleration time AFTER inflation, which—similar to the tumbling acceleration—is so short as to not matter. In other words, once the chute inflates the rocket abruptly transitions to a new terminal velocity. It is NOT slowing down all the way to the ground, nor is it accelerating very long relative the ground while it tumbles.

You can analyze inflation time by looking at the portion of your altitude graph during descent that is curved. A straight line is a constant speed.

View attachment 472996

Notice how short that little curved elbow is after inflation. It's almost hard to measure. Most of the delay below 200' (the set altitude here) is the time to unbundle and inflate, not the deceleration time after inflation. The angle of the straight line represents the speed, but when the graph is straight that speed is constant. For this light rocket, my personal goal would be to use up less than 50 feet during inflation.

For me, the release altitude I set is a measure of my confidence in my setup. My typical release altitude once I'm confident of a reliable setup is 200'. Other than maybe being able to see it in the sky longer to locate it, opening higher won't change the landing speed, it will just increase the drift.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you don't make it a personal goal to get your inflation times down to a chute that POPS open at release, it almost doesn't matter what you set the release point to. I've watched and heard stories of bundles that never open after release at over 500' before, especially if the user was using their old tried-and-true wrap-the-shrouds around a rolled-up bundle or got their shrouds twisted or wrapped it up in a blanket that never got pulled away.

Great info John, Thank you.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

The AMRAAM is ready. The JLCR will fit nicely but I think I’ll wait for a low wind day.

 

[mikewrt]

The AMRAAM is ready. The JLCR will fit nicely but I think I’ll wait for a low wind day.

View attachment 473124

Looks great, I want one! Clone or a kit? Which motor you thinking for first launch?

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Looks great, I want one! Clone or a kit? Which motor you thinking for first launch?

Get it when you can. Very popular. Ds then Es. I kinda messed up on the forward fin airfoil cause I didn’t understand the instructions. Don’t tell anyone…

I was having great success this morning with the JLCR which should work awesome in this missile. Video at 11…

https://jonrocket.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=547

 

[BEC]

I saw your latest post on the FlightSketch log and figured that to be a Chute Release flight, with the CR at 200 feet.

But....is the FS Mini out in the sun/breeze on the way down? Lotsa spikes in the altitude trace and lots of what must be things banging together in the accelerometer trace.



Nice to @John Beans drop in here....he seems to have been a pretty busy guy lately.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

I saw your latest post on the FlightSketch log and figured that to be a Chute Release flight, with the CR at 200 feet.

But....is the FS Mini out in the sun/breeze on the way down? Lotsa spikes in the altitude trace and lots of what must be things banging together in the accelerometer trace.
View attachment 473460
View attachment 473461

Nice to @John Beans drop in here....he seems to have been a pretty busy guy lately.

No, Mini was in your fleece pouch connected to the NC. Just a wild ride until the CR released. Quite a dramatic difference, huh. This is the upgraded firmware to 29. The battery has been used a bit. Shows 2.95v initial then 2.75v when ready for flight. I got the new pack of CR1225 so think it's time to replace.

It was forecasted to be 10 to 12 mph and ended up being 2 to 6 mph. Would've been a great morning for Es except I was getting squeezed by the women's softball game.

Yes, great input from John. I think he'll like the action shots I took this morning of the CR working.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Successful testing of JL Chute Release plus three flight videos and one FS altimeter

The previous test of the Chute Release was not successful when the Mega Fat Boy went cruise missile. This time, all four flights were successful. The wind forecast was for 10 to 12 mph but was actually 2 to 6 mph according to my weather station (and the altimeter API). Woulda been a great day for E motors but was getting squeezed by the women's softball game. The raindrops on the Handycam made focusing difficult again.

The Thomas Viking Special ended up in the canal. I looked for it later but couldn't find it. The wind appeared to be from the SE (Kona). With the ladies setting up their game, I moved away form their outfield (mauka). However, I was worried about the rockets landing in the trees (makai). Eventually, the winds shifted from the East (Diamondhead), and the rockets were landing windward to the launchpad. If I had the guts, I woulda launched the Goblin with an E12-6. There's a fine line between bravery and stupidity.

The Jolly Logic Chute Release worked flawlessly all four times. In the park, setting it to 100ft seemed to work great. I decided to try the Citation Patriot at 200ft. In the flight graph, you can see the dramatic transition from tumbling to chute release. It would be interesting to compare the graphs of a 300ft release to a 100ft release. I upgraded all of the FS Minis to firmware 29. I also finally figured out how to obtain the CR1225 lithium battery (about the only thing eBay is good for these days).

For the Antar, I decided to attach the cam to the nose cone. This produced several excellent action shots of the JLCR doing its thing. This was the replacement cam from the Astrocam rocket. I wasn't happy with the old one because it couldn't keep a charge. The new one seems to work better, but the date/time font is huge compared to the old one. This might've been an early release version.

The piston popped out of the Texas Twister again. It's working like a Tazz. I'll try one more time with glueing it in. I'm afraid if I use too much glue, it will drip on the piston. Maybe I need to make the ejection ports wider? The Handycam didn't pick up the flight of the Puma because I had the on/off reversed. It's nice to launch the 13mm rockets at the end when the winds start picking up in the morning.

I'm not sure why the rooster had a rope tied to its leg. Earlier, I saw someone pick up a rooster like it's a pet but not sure if it's the same rooster. Just another day in Waipahu...

00:00 Intro
00:31 Thomas Viking Special 3pts
02:22 Astrocam 5pts
03:14 Flight video
03:57 Protostar 5pts
05:12 Citation Patriot 503ft 6pts
06:49 Goblin extended 6pts
07:51 Flight video
08:28 Antar attempt #1
09:14 Antar #2 6pts
10:08 Flight video
10:59 Texas Twister 2pts
11:45 Puma 3pts
12:09 Total 36pts

 

[kuririn]

Looked like the motor chuffed on the first attempt with the Antar.

 

[BABAR]

Nice day and film reel, well edited as always.

my upscale mods of Texas Twister also have problems with piston separation. Bigger vents may help, I am also experimenting with a much longer piston with Kevlar retention. Those Estes motor ejections put out a lot of force!

thanks for posting these, they are fun to watch.

do you clean your Estes AstroCam lens? My pics are much more cloudy (kind of a whitish haze), yours are crystal clear.

 

[Philip Tiberius D.]

Successful testing of JL Chute Release plus three flight videos and one FS altimeter

The previous test of the Chute Release was not successful when the Mega Fat Boy went cruise missile. This time, all four flights were successful. The wind forecast was for 10 to 12 mph but was actually 2 to 6 mph according to my weather station (and the altimeter API). Woulda been a great day for E motors but was getting squeezed by the women's softball game. The raindrops on the Handycam made focusing difficult again.

The Thomas Viking Special ended up in the canal. I looked for it later but couldn't find it. The wind appeared to be from the SE (Kona). With the ladies setting up their game, I moved away form their outfield (mauka). However, I was worried about the rockets landing in the trees (makai). Eventually, the winds shifted from the East (Diamondhead), and the rockets were landing windward to the launchpad. If I had the guts, I woulda launched the Goblin with an E12-6. There's a fine line between bravery and stupidity.

The Jolly Logic Chute Release worked flawlessly all four times. In the park, setting it to 100ft seemed to work great. I decided to try the Citation Patriot at 200ft. In the flight graph, you can see the dramatic transition from tumbling to chute release. It would be interesting to compare the graphs of a 300ft release to a 100ft release. I upgraded all of the FS Minis to firmware 29. I also finally figured out how to obtain the CR1225 lithium battery (about the only thing eBay is good for these days).

For the Antar, I decided to attach the cam to the nose cone. This produced several excellent action shots of the JLCR doing its thing. This was the replacement cam from the Astrocam rocket. I wasn't happy with the old one because it couldn't keep a charge. The new one seems to work better, but the date/time font is huge compared to the old one. This might've been an early release version.

The piston popped out of the Texas Twister again. It's working like a Tazz. I'll try one more time with glueing it in. I'm afraid if I use too much glue, it will drip on the piston. Maybe I need to make the ejection ports wider? The Handycam didn't pick up the flight of the Puma because I had the on/off reversed. It's nice to launch the 13mm rockets at the end when the winds start picking up in the morning.

I'm not sure why the rooster had a rope tied to its leg. Earlier, I saw someone pick up a rooster like it's a pet but not sure if it's the same rooster. Just another day in Waipahu...

00:00 Intro
00:31 Thomas Viking Special 3pts
02:22 Astrocam 5pts
03:14 Flight video
03:57 Protostar 5pts
05:12 Citation Patriot 503ft 6pts
06:49 Goblin extended 6pts
07:51 Flight video
08:28 Antar attempt #1
09:14 Antar #2 6pts
10:08 Flight video
10:59 Texas Twister 2pts
11:45 Puma 3pts
12:09 Total 36pts

Are you using the cam that came with the “AstroCam” for your video capture on all your rockets of a different cam ? Looks like a great launch morning….

 

[Joekeyo]

Looks like we are on the same page. I just got my JLCR and plan on using it next week at NARAM. I like how you hot potato'd the JLCR between the rockets. The C5-3 would have been my 2nd choice on the Antar as well.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Thanks for watching and the comments.

Looked like the motor chuffed on the first attempt with the Antar.

I sent Karl an email asking if the motor is good to go again or not.

Nice day and film reel, well edited as always.

my upscale mods of Texas Twister also have problems with piston separation. Bigger vents may help, I am also experimenting with a much longer piston with Kevlar retention. Those Estes motor ejections put out a lot of force!

thanks for posting these, they are fun to watch.

do you clean your Estes AstroCam lens? My pics are much more cloudy (kind of a whitish haze), yours are crystal clear.

For the rear ring, do you recommend CA or epoxy? The wood glue apparently is not enough to contain the ejection force. I'll also try widening the ports.

Both cams seem clear. I wonder if it's an issue with the cam?

Are you using the cam that came with the “AstroCam” for your video capture on all your rockets of a different cam ? Looks like a great launch morning….

The cam is the same quality as the cube cams I've been using but lighter and with a smaller profile. I just use masking tape which is fine for LPR and probably MPR, but not HPR.

Looks like we are on the same page. I just got my JLCR and plan on using it next week at NARAM. I like how you hot potato'd the JLCR between the rockets. The C5-3 would have been my 2nd choice on the Antar as well.

I used the same 15" Top Flight thin nylon chute. I previously sprayed it with fire retardant. A little singed but no holes. Good luck at NARAM.

When I ran the Antar before with the C5-3, I got 266ft. I was really hoping the D20 would work to see how high it would go. When it didn't, I swapped the altimeter for the AC cam which was fortunate because got lots of really good action shots.

 

[BABAR]

I am not sure that any single external centering ring on body tube and single centering ring on motor mount will reliably hold without more venting, and even then…. You have to make sure it doesn’t vent UNTIL the piston has moved enough to deploy.

trying to remember the original Texas Twister design to see if it has room for doubling the rings on both.

I am working on an internal Kevlar cord that stops the piston just short of ejecting it, with the tailward loop actually AROUND the motor (something like @hcmbanjo ‘s replaceable cord, at least in the course.

come to think of it, that could actually let me REMOVE the body tube attached ring, probably put three on the long piston motor mount, one at the tail to keep it steady, two about an inch apart forward to keep the piston “straight” as it slides back.

hmmmm….. need a strong nose cone mount for cord. External tape fixation for nose cone, probably vinyl tape as I can stretch it to make a tight hold (just needs enough to get the piston started, ironically at the end of piston travel the Kevlar cord is actually HOLDING the cone in place, pulling it tailward, THATs where you need a strong nose cone Kevlar attachment mount, I actually drill a couple of dowels through the cone and sand off the external part, just like the big boys (HPR) do it.

 

[BEC]

On the D20 that spat the igniter but didn't light: I had a C18-4W not go (even less so than on your Antar) on the 4th of July. On the second attempt the motor split its case down the entire length and the model never left the pad. I will be interested to hear Karl's response to your question. He said he was going to replace the split one I had and the other five C18-4Ws I have from the same lot. I have no idea how fast Aerotech ships warranty replacements though....

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

On the D20 that spat the igniter but didn't light: I had a C18-4W not go (even less so than on your Antar) on the 4th of July. On the second attempt the motor split its case down the entire length and the model never left the pad. I will be interested to hear Karl's response to your question. He said he was going to replace the split one I had and the other five C18-4Ws I have from the same lot. I have no idea how fast Aerotech ships warranty replacements though....

He replaced the pack of C18-6W that kept popping. Turns out the clay was packed wrong with the lot. It took about 3 or 4 weeks for the shipment to arrive but that's to Hawaii.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

I saw your latest post on the FlightSketch log and figured that to be a Chute Release flight, with the CR at 200 feet.

But....is the FS Mini out in the sun/breeze on the way down? Lotsa spikes in the altitude trace and lots of what must be things banging together in the accelerometer trace.
View attachment 473460
View attachment 473461

Nice to @John Beans drop in here....he seems to have been a pretty busy guy lately.

After looking at the cam, I'm wondering if I need to add a swivel to the NC to prevent cord twisting. I stopped adding one between the cord and the NC because it seems like wasted weight. I like attaching the hardware (altimeter and JLCR) to the NC because it's easier to retrieve from a tree. Thoughts?

 

[Joekeyo]

Is this a pun on "Clutch Cargo". I am thinking of a 60s cartoon; possibly only in Chicago land ?

FWIF I found information about Clutch Cargo in Wikipedia and on you tube. Turns out it was much more widely distributed than Chicagoland. If you haven't seen it before, it is unusual. Here's an example:

Sorry to hijack your thread. Back to your great videos.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

I am not sure that any single external centering ring on body tube and single centering ring on motor mount will reliably hold without more venting, and even then…. You have to make sure it doesn’t vent UNTIL the piston has moved enough to deploy.

trying to remember the original Texas Twister design to see if it has room for doubling the rings on both.

I am working on an internal Kevlar cord that stops the piston just short of ejecting it, with the tailward loop actually AROUND the motor (something like @hcmbanjo ‘s replaceable cord, at least in the course.

come to think of it, that could actually let me REMOVE the body tube attached ring, probably put three on the long piston motor mount, one at the tail to keep it steady, two about an inch apart forward to keep the piston “straight” as it slides back.

hmmmm….. need a strong nose cone mount for cord. External tape fixation for nose cone, probably vinyl tape as I can stretch it to make a tight hold (just needs enough to get the piston started, ironically at the end of piston travel the Kevlar cord is actually HOLDING the cone in place, pulling it tailward, THATs where you need a strong nose cone Kevlar attachment mount, I actually drill a couple of dowels through the cone and sand off the external part, just like the big boys (HPR) do it.

I successfully applied epoxy to the ring without gluing the MM to it. I also widened the ports about 2mm.

FWIF I found information about Clutch Cargo in Wikipedia and on you tube. Turns out it was much more widely distributed than Chicagoland. If you haven't seen it before, it is unusual. Here's an example:

Sorry to hijack your thread. Back to your great videos.

So basically a poor mans Jonny Quest. The talking mouths are weird.

 

[user 35280]

After looking at the cam, I'm wondering if I need to add a swivel to the NC to prevent cord twisting. I stopped adding one between the cord and the NC because it seems like wasted weight. I like attaching the hardware (altimeter and JLCR) to the NC because it's easier to retrieve from a tree. Thoughts?

View attachment 473667

The chutes I use come with a real nice swivel and work really well in keeping the lines from twisting.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

The chutes I use come with a real nice swivel and work really well in keeping the lines from twisting.

I have swivels on the chutes and swivels connecting the elastic to the Kevlar in the BT. A third swivel on the NC seemed excessive at the time. I like to tape the cam to the body and the swivel keeps the rocket steady. You can hear the swivel working on the descent (but was still spinning).

 

[BABAR]

I successfully applied epoxy to the ring without gluing the MM to it. I also widened the ports about 2mm.

View attachment 473672

Good luck!

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

Good luck!

Thank. It's only a 13mm so easy to keep trying again, and again, and again...

It's not like it's a Booster 3 Static Fire or anything...

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

I don’t think the JLCR is gonna fit.

 

[kuririn]

I don’t think the JLCR aid gonna fit.

BT-60 minimum.
Maybe in a few years.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

BT-60 minimum.
Maybe in a few years.

The snap together rockets are interesting. Has to survive launches without glue.

 

[kuririn]

The snap together rockets are interesting. Has to survive launches without glue.

The Dragonite supposedly blows apart at ejection (it's not supposed to).
Haven't maidened it yet, I'll be sure to have you filming it when I do.
Could be spectacular.

 

[BEC]

Maybe in a few years.

I chatted up John Beans at NARCON in Houston in 2018 and told him, in response to a "how much smaller?" question that I would love a Chute Release I could fly in an Alpha. He didn't laugh out loud, but he didn't say "it was coming" either....

And when I think of what I have to do to get an FS Mini in an Alpha, I'm thinking it might not be possible. But BT-50 would be nice.

The Dragonite supposedly blows apart at ejection (it's not supposed to).
Haven't maidened it yet, I'll be sure to have you filming it when I do.
Could be spectacular.
View attachment 473699

I've seen quite a few Dragonites at my club launch and i've not seen one blow apart yet.....but there is always a first time.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

My rebuilt AIM-9 Sidewinder clone. Im reusing the NC. After the rocket almost went cruise missile last time, decided it needed a new body with 24mm, styrene covered balsa, TTW fins, and Qualman Baffle of course. I tried making large fillets with Plastic Wood and decided I didn’t like it, too difficult to work with and too much messy sanding. Unfortunately the white decals got messed up, some were curling at the edges. I thought it was the Micro Set but started doing it without. Had to thick CA some of the edges. I tried thin CA at first which started melting the decal sheet. I definitely won’t be experimenting with a booster in this one. I’m saving that for the Nike Smoke…