# Tripoli vs NAR?

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#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Wouldn't Midwest Power qualify as a joint event since QCRC is both a NAR Section and a TRA Prefecture?
Many of our large events are hosted by clubs that are both Tripoli Prefectures and NAR Sections, but that’s not quite he same as having the national/international leadership of the NAR and Tripoli throw their support an a very inclusive event intended to highlight our unity. Because both of our organizations have been faced with an unprecedented shutdown, not just in scope but also in elapsed time, I could understand wanting to do this as a celebration. Maybe CAR would want to participate also.
Boatgeek’s point about volunteers taking it and running with it is spot on, and would be the most straightforward way to convince our boards.

#### Richard Dierking

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I know what you mean about the need for participation first, because I have heard this often. But, I think that this also could be a defense mechanism for new ideas. Unintended mostly. It's like, if you come up with something new, well, you are doing it. So, better keep quiet. Do you know what I mean?
On the other hand, putting something forward that you and the Board (I guess it's Boards this time) think is valuable, then developing the means is part of what leadership is about.

#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I know what you mean about the need for participation first, because I have heard this often. But, I think that this also could be a defense mechanism for new ideas. Unintended mostly. It's like, if you come up with something new, well, you are doing it. So, better keep quiet. Do you know what I mean?
On the other hand, putting something forward that you and the Board (I guess it's Boards this time) think is valuable, then developing the means is part of what leadership is about.
That’s the challenge, convincing two independent boards that there’s merit to adding a sixth national event with the added complexity of coordinating two organizations. Leadership also sometimes means accepting that not everyone sees things my way and that’s actually an organizational strength and not a weakness.

#### Richard Dierking

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Sure, I see what you mean Steve. I appreciate you listening (this and many other threads) and providing your experience and opinion. It helps us and we appreciate the time you spend on RF.

It is kind of an interesting situation. People elect Board members based on their expectations for their organization. Here you would have two different Boards representing their members. How would they work this out, and what would it turn out to be?
Anyway, I think there would be enough interest, and maybe just curiosity to motivate people to participate.

Personally, I've never been happier being a member of both organizations. I would always suggest being a member of both if you can.

#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Sure, I see what you mean Steve. I appreciate you listening (this and many other threads) and providing your experience and opinion. It helps us and we appreciate the time you spend on RF.

It is kind of an interesting situation. People elect Board members based on their expectations for their organization. Here you would have two different Boards representing their members. How would they work this out, and what would it turn out to be?
Anyway, I think there would be enough interest, and maybe just curiosity to motivate people to participate.

Personally, I've never been happier being a member of both organizations. I would always suggest being a member of both if you can.
Please also keep in mind that something like this is more of marathon than a sprint. It would take a year probably to put together. Even if both boards decided this was a wonderful idea that’s just the very tip of the iceberg. Then we would have to find multiple clubs interested in working together to actually put it all together with the newly added complexity of cooperation between NAR and Tripoli members. Unfortunately, not everyone has forgiven and forgotten past differences. National events are immense investments of time, people, and money for one organization, let alone two.
I haven’t given up, but this can only be fun if everyone is more patient than usual.

#### Richard Dierking

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
In the age of C19 patience is one of the pillars of success!
Yes, we understand; a long road.
I suggest that, when you have significant news, that it be posted on a new thread. Perhaps under National events, as a potential national event?

#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
In the age of C19 patience is one of the pillars of success!
Yes, we understand; a long road.
I suggest that, when you have significant news, that it be posted on a new thread. Perhaps under National events, as a potential national event?
Yes, that seems reasonable, although I’m sure such a thing would be fairly boisterously announced many other places as well. It would be announced in the Tripoli forum and NAR website first, followed by our official Facebook groups, our official Twitter feed, and our official Instagram account. At about that same time it would be announced in the national events forum here.

#### deandome

##### Well-Known Member
I am very lucky to live close-ish to Bong in Wisconsin, where WOOSH (NAR) and Tripoli Wisconsin practically trade launch weekends throughout the year...topped off with Wildman setting up shop at most of 'em. WOOSH guys launch at Tripoli launches, and vice versa; it's almost one homogenous group of guys...including many of the most experienced & dedicated experts in the hobby. Other than the rocket-eating trees bordering a relatively tight launch site, and the fact we have seasons, it really a rocket paradise.

I've been out of the hobby for almost a decade after becoming a BAR...I guess I'm reborn again. I joined Tripoli at that time, but let my membership lapse, so my certifications flew away, per Tripoli policy. Had I joined NAR, that wouldn't happen, but honestly, I have no problem re-certing, and might try to do both in one day after I recover from rotator cuff surgery.

But now I have to choose between the two orgs again, and I'm leaning towards WOOSH simply because of the fact NAR certs don't go away if you lapse a bit (I know TRA has a 1 or 2 year window for that, but still...). At face value...other than that...it's practically a coin-flip. So I'm asking if I'm missing anything....are there any advantages of being in Tripoli that would offset the somewhat trivial reason I'm leaning to NAR? Not just at the national level, I'm also hoping some Bongers can provide some un-biased opinions on any pros/cons specific to "our" organizationally-diverse group of regular fliers. Thanks!
Dean

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#### cerving

##### Owner, Eggtimer Rocketry
TRF Supporter
If you plan on doing EX then you'll have to go with Tripoli. If you want to be a TARC mentor or enter contests then you'll need to be an NAR member. Otherwise it's a tossup...

#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Just as a point of clarification, late last year the certification expiration for Tripoli was extended to five years, but two years after dropping out L2 or L3 flyers must pass the L2 test before they can fly at those levels again.

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#### Johnly

##### Well-Known Member
I am very lucky to live close-ish to Bong in Wisconsin, where WOOSH (NAR) and Tripoli Wisconsin practically trade launch weekends throughout the year...topped off with Wildman setting up shop at most of 'em. WOOSH guys launch at Tripoli launches, and vice versa; it's almost one homogenous group of guys...including many of the most experienced & dedicated experts in the hobby. Other than the rocket-eating trees bordering a relatively tight launch site, and the fact we have seasons, it really a rocket paradise.

I've been out of the hobby for almost a decade after becoming a BAR...I guess I'm reborn again. I joined Tripoli at that time, but let my membership lapse, so my certifications flew away, per Tripoli policy. Had I joined NAR, that wouldn't happen, but honestly, I have no problem re-certing, and might try to do both in one day after I recover from rotator cuff surgery.

But now I have to choose between the two orgs again, and I'm leaning towards WOOSH simply because of the fact NAR certs don't go away if you lapse a bit (I know TRA has a 1 or 2 year window for that, but still...). At face value...other than that...it's practically a coin-flip. So I'm asking if I'm missing anything....are there any advantages of being in Tripoli that would offset the somewhat trivial reason I'm leaning to NAR? Not just at the national level, I'm also hoping some Bongers can provide some un-biased opinions on any pros/cons specific to "our" organizationally-diverse group of regular fliers. Thanks!
Dean
You need more "cow bell" if I sourced avatar picture correctly.
Having been part of the rocketry community during the "divisive" years, I'm so glad that that is behind us and we can focus on what we enjoy and strive towards our goals without the needless baggage. Glad to hear that things are going smoothly in Wisconsin.

John

#### H. Craig Miller

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Why not take advantage of the best of both worlds... I have both.

##### Well-Known Member
Join both. Twice the clubs is twice the launches, right?

#### H. Craig Miller

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Why not take advantage of the best of both worlds... I have both.
Join both. Twice the clubs is twice the launches, right?
Exactly... twice as many raffles too.

#### High Desert Rocketry

##### Well-Known Member
If you plan on doing EX then you'll have to go with Tripoli. If you want to be a TARC mentor or enter contests then you'll need to be an NAR member. Otherwise it's a tossup...
Because of finances, I've had to pick between the two. When I was still formally teaching and advised and mentored TARC teams I had to join NAR but since then I've joined TRA because I fly mostly experimental. That has caused problems because now I still work with TARC teams but have to scramble to find a NAR member to 'witness their official' launch scores for the teams I work with.

As for 'contests' either group can and do contests; I believe TRA sponsors the Argonia Cup and is beginning to be involved with ESRA IREC SAC. Then there is FAR with 3 contests that you don't need to be a member of either organization. Some people like contests and some don't. Since most people just fly at their local fields and often join the group that runs those events, it is up to the local flyers to put on whatever competition they would like to run. Local competitions or challenges are easier to run than the large national ones.

As for certifications, I don't see a problem with TRA's policy. If you lapse for a period of time, how hard would it be to redo your L-1 and L-2 cert if you plan on flying again. The L-3 hurdle is different but if you want to fly L-3 there really isn't a problem since you would have TAPs overseeing your build/launch. I for one wouldn't mind having people look over what I want to fly.

ps Today I helped with a TARC team launch a few practice flights and will have to find a NAR person for them when they launch their 'official flights'.

#### High Desert Rocketry

##### Well-Known Member
At one time I was in both.

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##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Because of finances, I've had to pick between the two.
Really?
The annual membership of either one is about the cost of a J-motor (or K-motor on BF sale).
If one is flying HP, membership cost is the least of one's expenses.

As a HUGE newbie to HPR what is the difference between these two organizations? I have an NAR club close to me and a Tripoli club about 3 hours from me. What are the differences.
One of the two orgs is sooooo much better than the other one...
... but come renewal time, I can't recall which one that is, so I re-up for both, just in case.

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#### High Desert Rocketry

##### Well-Known Member
Really?
The annual membership of either one is about the cost of a J-motor (or K-motor on BF sale).
If one if flying HP, membership cost is the least of one's expenses.
afadeev, at one time I was in both. I now live on a $1,400 a month retirement. The state of California takes a share in income taxes, then the county with property taxes, then comes home owner, auto and life insurance, then comes utilities, then comes Medicare (I thought it was free health care), then comes utilities and food. Not much left over. I now fly mostly experimental...sugar. A J cost me$2, a K is $4, a L is$8 and so on. And Eggtimer products make the avionics inexpensive so that cost is cut. Without the ability to do sugar propellant my rocket flying days would probably be over and I would simply do rocketry by continuing to volunteer to help student teams with their rockets. My biggest cost doing rocketry is gasoline to drive to schools and launches...over $1,000 a year since I'm at launches two to four weekends a month...carpooling helps a lot when I'm able to do that and makes the drives more enjoyable. Plus the choice between the two organizations was decided for me when NAR banned me from their facebook page. My only regret about not being in NAR is that I have to scramble around looking for a NAR person to come out and 'witness' student TARC team flights since they don't accept TRA people as 'official witnesses'. edit: My last scratch built HP rocket cost <$25 and that was for the airframe, recovery, avionics, and L-impulse sugar propellant...already had the motor case I made previously

4" minimum diameter motor mount, fin can, avionics bay, and recovery bay. Nose cone was the top half of a 2-liter bottle. Only Elmer's School Glue used. Flight computer was an Eggtimer Apogee bought on BF. Parachute was homemade. Not all my rockets are built this 'inexpensive' but this was made to show people that you don't have to give up rocketry with the increasing cost of AP propellant.

TARC teams are out there needing NAR people to witness their launches for the national competitions...

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#### ksaves2

Really?
The annual membership of either one is about the cost of a J-motor (or K-motor on BF sale).
If one is flying HP, membership cost is the least of one's expenses.

One of the two orgs is sooooo much better than the other one...
... but come renewal time, I can't recall which one that is, so I re-up for both, just in case.
I do too. No NAR group around but I like the work they do with kids. Since I like to mix sometimes TRA is the way to go too though I only fastidiously fly commercial motors at a NAR launch and have left rockets at home as I had the motors pre-loaded with a research propellent. I sympathize with HDR above. Living in a high cost of living state can be a bummer and saving for retirement can be so hard. In my case I had an autistic spectrum son who's behavior was so unpredictable we never were able to take family vacations. That money was saved and invested. When he outgrew this problem (he's a sweet 26 year old kid with an 8y/o mentality now and I can take him anywhere. Does have good speech.) My wife died of Radon induced lung cancer (she never smoked) when Chris outgrew his behavior issues. Never did get to take a family vacation.
I've mentioned this stuff before and no need to respond but it points out that since I didn't have the expense of vacations those funds were saved for retirement.
In reality, I wished Chris had not been so unpredictable when he was young and we could have done some customary vacations as a family.
Kurt

#### High Desert Rocketry

##### Well-Known Member
I do too. No NAR group around but I like the work they do with kids. Since I like to mix sometimes TRA is the way to go too though I only fastidiously fly commercial motors at a NAR launch and have left rockets at home as I had the motors pre-loaded with a research propellent. I sympathize with HDR above. Living in a high cost of living state can be a bummer and saving for retirement can be so hard. In my case I had an autistic spectrum son who's behavior was so unpredictable we never were able to take family vacations. That money was saved and invested. When he outgrew this problem (he's a sweet 26 year old kid with an 8y/o mentality now and I can take him anywhere. Does have good speech.) My wife died of Radon induced lung cancer (she never smoked) when Chris outgrew his behavior issues. Never did get to take a family vacation.
I've mentioned this stuff before and no need to respond but it points out that since I didn't have the expense of vacations those funds were saved for retirement.
In reality, I wished Chris had not been so unpredictable when he was young and we could have done some customary vacations as a family.
Kurt
Sorry for the loss of your wife and glad your son is doing well. What you said got me thinking about vacations...
I think it's been nearly 20 years for us if you don't count going to rocket launches and my wife doesn't count those.
Time for a change, thank you.

#### ksaves2

Sorry for the loss of your wife and glad your son is doing well. What you said got me thinking about vacations...
I think it's been nearly 20 years for us if you don't count going to rocket launches and my wife doesn't count those.
Time for a change, thank you.
If you can, do it. I live in Illinois and even if we had just been able to go up to the Wisconsin Dells and Lake Delton that would have left some good memories with everyone. As it turned out, when my son outgrew his behavior issues, my wife took ill and died in three months. We found out in October she likely had a terminal illness and that prior summer I had mentioned to my wife that Chris likely would do fine on a vacation that next summer. She agreed though became ill and died in January. Didn't have the chance...............

And then Covid entered the picture! I was going to take Chris on some short jaunts. He does know how to swim so I'm comfortable with him around water. Even loves going off diving boards in deep water. Can tread water fine! We go to the local municipal swimming pool but couldn't do that last summer as I was still working and I believe they shut down early due to Covid.

Take family vacations if one can. My mother had all the 16mm color film movies of our vacations when I was a kid put on DVD. My dad was sort of techie and 16mm movie film had better resolution than 8mm or Super 8mm film back in the 60's and early 70's. I had a blast using the old wind up motored, "electric eye" for apeture Bell and Howell 16mm movie camera that took 50 foot long 16mm film cartridges for about 2.5 to 3 minutes of recording time! Was fixed focus and no zoom.
Could change the frame rate to insane rates I believe past 64 frames a second for super slow motion and could do single frame exposures for animation purposes which I dinked around with.

Kurt

#### High Desert Rocketry

##### Well-Known Member
If you can, do it. I live in Illinois and even if we had just been able to go up to the Wisconsin Dells and Lake Delton that would have left some good memories with everyone. As it turned out, when my son outgrew his behavior issues, my wife took ill and died in three months. We found out in October she likely had a terminal illness and that prior summer I had mentioned to my wife that Chris likely would do fine on a vacation that next summer. She agreed though became ill and died in January. Didn't have the chance...............

And then Covid entered the picture! I was going to take Chris on some short jaunts. He does know how to swim so I'm comfortable with him around water. Even loves going off diving boards in deep water. Can tread water fine! We go to the local municipal swimming pool but couldn't do that last summer as I was still working and I believe they shut down early due to Covid.

Take family vacations if one can. My mother had all the 16mm color film movies of our vacations when I was a kid put on DVD. My dad was sort of techie and 16mm movie film had better resolution than 8mm or Super 8mm film back in the 60's and early 70's. I had a blast using the old wind up motored, "electric eye" for apeture Bell and Howell 16mm movie camera that took 50 foot long 16mm film cartridges for about 2.5 to 3 minutes of recording time! Was fixed focus and no zoom.
Could change the frame rate to insane rates I believe past 64 frames a second for super slow motion and could do single frame exposures for animation purposes which I dinked around with.

Kurt
Small world. My family lived in a basement in South Side Chicago and often went to Devil's Lake in Wisconsin for vacations in the 1940s till we moved to California in 1956. I think that is where I started 'rock climbing' as I have seen some 16mm movies of me 4 years old scrambling on the rocks or got into rockets as he and my uncles would shoot off lots of skyrockets. I still have my dad's old windup Keystone sound 16mm movie camera and projector and some huge reels of film I haven't looked at in 50 years. Maybe time to dig them out and remanence. How technology has changed; GoPros. Maybe they are made of the old nitrocellulose film I can transfer to digital and use the film for igniters...

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