Tripoli vs NAR?

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Lynn McCall

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I like them both. I fly at both. I love working with kids and there is a NAR group nearby. When it comes to me flying, I love pushing the envelope. I always have. My favorite rocket as a kid was the T-Bird. I couldn't get enough altitude.

Basically, I love it all and won't grow out of it. I have been a member of both, but am now a member of TRA. Love being a Rocket man.
 

boatgeek

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NARTRAB, pronounced "Nar trab" of course
NAR-TRA Bloodbath :eek::D🤪

(need a tongue-in-cheek smilie)
Best -- Terry
I have a competition proposal for NARTRAB, the NAR/TRA Death Squad. A target object (eg thin open cell foam) will be hoisted by balloon 50 feet in the air above the launch area. NAR and TRA teams will have the opportunity to attempt to hit the object. NAR teams may use any number of rockets but the motors must be D power or less. TRA teams may use only one rocket of H power or greater. The teams that does teh most damage to the target as determined by judges will be the winner.

This only requires minor modifications to the safety code, in regards to launching at a target.
 

Ez2cDave

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This only requires minor modifications to the safety code, in regards to launching at a target.
Here comes the "reincarnation" of "Master-Blasters" . . . "Let the games begin" !
 

Ez2cDave

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I have a competition proposal for NARTRAB, the NAR/TRA Death Squad. A target object (eg thin open cell foam) will be hoisted by balloon 50 feet in the air above the launch area. NAR and TRA teams will have the opportunity to attempt to hit the object. NAR teams may use any number of rockets but the motors must be D power or less. TRA teams may use only one rocket of H power or greater. The teams that does teh most damage to the target as determined by judges will be the winner.

This only requires minor modifications to the safety code, in regards to launching at a target.
Here comes the "reincarnation" of "Master-Blasters" . . . "Let the games begin" !
 

dhbarr

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NAR+TRA=ARRANT

No idea what it means, but the logo is punly an Air Ant
 

HVArcas

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Here’s what I explained to someone the other day:
I don’t know why NAR changed theirs, but we both had the same policy at one time. A few years ago the NAR changed theirs, which honestly put us in a bit of a position. It’s a topic that we discuss frequently at the board level.
Here’s my take: if a person drops his or her membership for at least a year, we know they haven’t probably flown in that time. I don’t know about you, but I lose expertise if I go too long without doing something. That was the basis for the expiration of a certification. It’s true that a person could also just continue paying membership dues and not fly and lose just as much expertise, but that’s harder to track without adding rules and formal requirements such as a flight logbook.
So, now we have this weird situation where Tripoli members can “insure” their certifications by joining the NAR for a year. Then they can drop out for some time and whenever they want to return they rejoin NAR, regain their certification level, and then rejoin Tripoli and transfer their certification. It doesn’t make sense, does it.
Honestly, I’m torn. The only people our rule affects are those who only join Tripoli, our most loyal members.
But, at the same time, all it takes to recertify is to fly rockets anyway. An L3 can just recycle their existing paperwork and reply their rocket. And flying rockets is the only reason to get certified anyway, so it’s really not a huge hardship for most people.
As a side note, right now we have stopped expiring certifications for people who drop their memberships during the next year. We did that because we anticipate that many people will be unable to afford to renew their memberships due to the shutdown we’re going through.

By the way, here’s the definition of fascism:
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.
Oh I do not care in the least about expiring certs. I think it is a little silly (you ever forget how to ride a bike while still young enough to physically operate it?) but heck if it ever happens to me it will be a fun excuse to go fly some smaller stuff again. No, the problem we have had is with the exclusivity of those who can sign certifications. how do you deal with prefects that have no TAP? how do you cert (even L1) at a private launch site? I guess you cant. so after years of trying we all joined NAR instead and direct our students to do the same. whatever.

I realize you post the definition of fascism to make me reconsider my language or shame my opinion, but re-reading it while visualizing more than a few faces in the hobby fits a little too close for comfort.
 

Steve Shannon

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Oh I do not care in the least about expiring certs. I think it is a little silly (you ever forget how to ride a bike while still young enough to physically operate it?) but heck if it ever happens to me it will be a fun excuse to go fly some smaller stuff again. No, the problem we have had is with the exclusivity of those who can sign certifications. how do you deal with prefects that have no TAP? how do you cert (even L1) at a private launch site? I guess you cant. so after years of trying we all joined NAR instead and direct our students to do the same. whatever.

I realize you post the definition of fascism to make me reconsider my language or shame my opinion, but re-reading it while visualizing more than a few faces in the hobby fits a little too close for comfort.
Thanks, that helps me understand your objections. Although Tripoli has more specific rules regarding who is authorized to certify users, that certainly doesn’t resemble fascism. Posting the definition of fascism wasn’t an attempt to shame you but rather to show that it simply doesn’t apply. Given the evil and overarching nature of fascism, it’s inflammatory to call an organization fascist just because you disagree with a rule. It might work to attract attention, but it doesn’t help the conversation along.
Nothing prevents a Prefect, TAP, or Director from attending a private launch and signing a certification form. And if a Prefecture has no TAPs, and assuming there are qualified L3 members, the Prefect can certainly nominate a couple. Finally, several years ago we also allowed the Prefect to assign certification authority temporarily in case the Prefect could not attend a launch.
Thanks again for explaining what caused you to object.
 

Ez2cDave

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How do you deal with prefects that have no TAP? how do you cert (even L1) at a private launch site? I guess you cant. so after years of trying we all joined NAR instead and direct our students to do the same. whatever.

I realize you post the definition of fascism to make me reconsider my language or shame my opinion, but re-reading it while visualizing more than a few faces in the hobby fits a little too close for comfort.
Simple . . . Either you travel, the TAP travels, or you don't certify, duh !

Once a Fascist, always a Fascist !
 
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Richard Dierking

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So, on page 7 and this thread has taken several turns. Probably thread is not a good name for these. Sometimes more like the branches of a tree but linear to because the sequential nature of the forum. And, that may be the forum's greatest weakness. I'm sure there's good stuff, useful info in this thread like others I've seen, but often it's buried. I own my part in that as well. There are subjects I'm interested in that many many pages long. Have you ever tried to get caught up? It's frustrating!
Does anyone ever summarize a topic and then it's closed, or do things just go on until they die, only to be occasionally resurrected?
At what point does something become it's own thread? Like the mutual NAR-TRA event thing? If Steve had some kind of update on that, would he come back here?
I have mixed feelings about this, because in one way constantly creating new threads helps with linearizing info and would help someone coming in later, but on the other hand, it would create perhaps an unmanageable number of threads.
 

prfesser

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Simple . . . Either you travel, the TAP travels, or you don't certify, duh !
That is true for L3, but then, I suspect that almost every L3 candidate has to travel a fair distance to get to an L3-capable field. I am lucky, I live just over an hour from a field that might be L3 capable for a low-and-slow flight. Before that field became available last year, my choices were 4 hours, 7.5 hours, or 11-12 hours.

As for the TAP traveling, most members of the TAP whom I know are perfectly willing to travel a reasonable distance to help certify an L3 candidate.

For L1 and L2 the situation is rather simpler, as Steve noted in post #192.

Once a Fascist, always a Fascist !
Yesterday I viewed your 50 latest posts, and of those, it appeared that not more than 10 were on rocketry per se. The rest--80% of the posts---were BCM. I learned to be pretty tolerant after 12 years on the BoD, but your latest name-calling remarks are, in my opinion, completely unjustified.

Congratulations on being the first person I have set to "Ignore" on TRF.

Goodbye -- TWM
BCM = b**ch, complain, moan
 

Steve Shannon

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So, on page 7 and this thread has taken several turns. Probably thread is not a good name for these. Sometimes more like the branches of a tree but linear to because the sequential nature of the forum. And, that may be the forum's greatest weakness. I'm sure there's good stuff, useful info in this thread like others I've seen, but often it's buried. I own my part in that as well. There are subjects I'm interested in that many many pages long. Have you ever tried to get caught up? It's frustrating!
Does anyone ever summarize a topic and then it's closed, or do things just go on until they die, only to be occasionally resurrected?
At what point does something become it's own thread? Like the mutual NAR-TRA event thing? If Steve had some kind of update on that, would he come back here?
I have mixed feelings about this, because in one way constantly creating new threads helps with linearizing info and would help someone coming in later, but on the other hand, it would create perhaps an unmanageable number of threads.
Richard,
If the idea of a joint TRA-NAR event gets traction I would definitely come back here. It wouldn’t be lots of details during any discussions that would need to be held; that’s a little too much of the sausage making and directors and trustees in both sides need to be able to speak freely with concern that bits and pieces of the conversation might be reported out of context. I can tell you this: I have very tentatively asked about the idea and the responsible questions have yet to be answered:
There are a minimum of five national events between our two organizations already, as well as numerous super-regional events like Airfest that truly are attended from across North America. Is there truly interest and when would there be a place and time for yet another large launch? Winter in Arizona or Texas? The other three seasons may already have plenty of launch opportunities. Or would two existing National events be truncated and held together so as not to dilute the effect.
How would event insurance work. That cannot be simultaneously shared, so would this truly be a joint event? The best I can think of would be to interlace insurance based on days, so Day 1 might be a NAR event and Day 2 might be a Tripoli event. Repeat as necessary.
Finally (only for purposes of this post, certainly not the final question that might arise, what would the event look like? For instance, I love the presentations that accompany NARCON. Those seldom happen at Tripoli events although KLOUDBusters have arranged tours of the Cosmosphere. So maybe conjoin something like NARCON, which is typically a flightless event, with a Tripoli launch event? Or go full bore and try to combine our two annual meetings, NARAM and LDRS? If we did that 2021 would probably be the first opportunity.
 

Steve Shannon

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That is true for L3, but then, I suspect that almost every L3 candidate has to travel a fair distance to get to an L3-capable field. I am lucky, I live just over an hour from a field that might be L3 capable for a low-and-slow flight. Before that field became available last year, my choices were 4 hours, 7.5 hours, or 11-12 hours.

As for the TAP traveling, most members of the TAP whom I know are perfectly willing to travel a reasonable distance to help certify an L3 candidate.

For L1 and L2 the situation is rather simpler, as Steve noted in post #192.


Yesterday I viewed your 50 latest posts, and of those, it appeared that not more than 10 were on rocketry per se. The rest--80% of the posts---were BCM. I learned to be pretty tolerant after 12 years on the BoD, but your latest name-calling remarks are, in my opinion, completely unjustified.

Congratulations on being the first person I have set to "Ignore" on TRF.

Goodbye -- TWM
BCM = b**ch, complain, moan
For Terry to ignore someone is truly significant. He’s one of the nicest guys I’ve ever met. Perhaps there ought to be an “number ignored by” threshold for each person that determines their ability to post. If more than X people ignore a person that person loses the ability to post for a month. Second offense, four months. Third offense, one year? Just a suggestion.
 

Ez2cDave

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Yesterday I viewed your 50 latest posts, and of those, it appeared that not more than 10 were on rocketry per se. The rest--80% of the posts---were BCM. I learned to be pretty tolerant after 12 years on the BoD, but your latest name-calling remarks are, in my opinion, completely unjustified.
Well, considering that I have been posting frequently in the Coronavirus Forum, it is not surprising that they are not "Rocketry-Related".

I have not been calling anyone names, to my recollection, much as I would have liked to, if the Forum were not Moderated !

You have the right to "ignore" anyone, at your discretion . . . I, on the other hand, never do so, because I like to know what people are saying.

Dave F.
 

boatgeek

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Richard,
If the idea of a joint TRA-NAR event gets traction I would definitely come back here. It wouldn’t be lots of details during any discussions that would need to be held; that’s a little too much of the sausage making and directors and trustees in both sides need to be able to speak freely with concern that bits and pieces of the conversation might be reported out of context. I can tell you this: I have very tentatively asked about the idea and the responsible questions have yet to be answered:
There are a minimum of five national events between our two organizations already, as well as numerous super-regional events like Airfest that truly are attended from across North America. Is there truly interest and when would there be a place and time for yet another large launch? Winter in Arizona or Texas? The other three seasons may already have plenty of launch opportunities. Or would two existing National events be truncated and held together so as not to dilute the effect.
How would event insurance work. That cannot be simultaneously shared, so would this truly be a joint event? The best I can think of would be to interlace insurance based on days, so Day 1 might be a NAR event and Day 2 might be a Tripoli event. Repeat as necessary.
Finally (only for purposes of this post, certainly not the final question that might arise, what would the event look like? For instance, I love the presentations that accompany NARCON. Those seldom happen at Tripoli events although KLOUDBusters have arranged tours of the Cosmosphere. So maybe conjoin something like NARCON, which is typically a flightless event, with a Tripoli launch event? Or go full bore and try to combine our two annual meetings, NARAM and LDRS? If we did that 2021 would probably be the first opportunity.
Having been on the board of a few volunteer organizations, I can confidently say that what will get a joint NAR-TRA event off the ground is a group of 5-10 people who are willing to organize it and who push to make it happen. Until those people materialize, both organizations have enough stuff to do with their normal jobs that there's no incentive to go out on a limb. That's no shade on either NAR or TRA, just a reality of running a volunteer organization.

On a similar note, my wife ran the grounds volunteer group for our kids' elementary PTA for several years. Lots of people would come up to her and ask her for meetings to talk about what she should do with the garden. She invariably replied, "I don't have a lot of time for meetings, but I'm weeding every Tuesday from X:00 to Y:00. Come by and we can talk while we work." Perhaps 1 in 50 people did, and those were the ones who became useful volunteers. Everyone else was just noise.
 

troj

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I'm wondering how popular a mutual NAR-TRA event would be and what form it would take.
I actually know of just such an event - NASA's Student Launch Initiative. While NAR is the organization with the responsibility of running the launch, performing safety inspections, etc, the vast majority of the folks who help are members of both organizations. We've even had a year where we had as many Tripoli board members helping as we did NAR board members. There are a few folks who are NAR-only, and that's fine. There have been a few who are Tripoli-only, and that's fine as well. They're all good people who are there for one purpose - to help the students learn, and to help them have a safe launch.

-Kevin
 

FredA

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Interesting you mention SLI -- yes, run by NAR, but many teams fly EX motors. Does this not make it a TRA launch?
 

troj

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Interesting you mention SLI -- yes, run by NAR, but many teams fly EX motors. Does this not make it a TRA launch?
There are no EX motors flown at SLI. If any team has ever flown an EX motor at SLI, they lied about it. The program has never allowed anything other than commercial motors.

-Kevin
 

FredA

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Yes, I guess I was confusing the two....brain fade, sorry.
 

troj

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Kevin are your boots still red with AL dirt?
I have cargo pants that I only wear to launches - pockets are handy. One pair has had red stains for over 10 years. :)

That stuff does not come out!

-Kevin
 

jd2cylman

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Wouldn't Midwest Power qualify as a joint event since QCRC is both a NAR Section and a TRA Prefecture?
Well.... We're not really a National launch like LDRS, NSL, or NARAM. But we occasionally get people from a wide area.
 

Richard Dierking

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I was thinking of more of an event with technical presentations, displays, and launch with model and HP rockets. Not many rocket launches. I think Steve mentioned something like this. Also, not just one or even two hosting clubs. More clubs getting together to help. If you take the work of setting up and managing a massive range out of the event, it makes an event less stressful. How about registering flights ahead of time, or maybe individual clubs setting up and running their own launching equipment. Again, something doesn't have to start out huge to be successful.
How about Spaceport America for the location? Fall is great weather in the region.
 
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