# Tripoli vs NAR?

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#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Same for TriCities Rocketeers, we do however choose to make some launches NAR launches.
I used to alternate, but then I got to thinking that all that did was constrain us from research. For us it is always the same people. I can't think of anything a NAR launch allows that Tripoli Launches do not other than non-members on the HPR range.

#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I think it would build a sense of unity or show a sense of unity. We need to unite to build a hobby.
It's probably not always evident, but John Hochheimer, the NAR President, and I speak frequently. We deliberately try to coordinate at least a certain amount. I consider him a good friend.
I do the same with Tim Rempel, President of CAR. I've actually known Tim (although not well) ever since Roc Lake nearly 20 years ago. I used to fly with the Canadians annually. Someday I hope to again.

#### rharshberger

##### Well-Known Member
I used to alternate, but then I got to thinking that all that did was constrain us from research. For us it is always the same people. I can't think of anything a NAR launch allows that Tripoli Launches do not other than non-members on the HPR range.
We do it to spread the love around between the two organizations.

#### Jmhepworth

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
UROC used to alternate between NAR launches and research launches, but for the past several years all of our launches have been research launches because so many members make their own motors and those of us who don’t can still launch. It’s a win win.

#### cwbullet

##### Obsessed with Rocketry
Staff member
Global Mod
It's probably not always evident, but John Hochheimer, the NAR President, and I speak frequently. We deliberately try to coordinate at least a certain amount. I consider him a good friend.
I do the same with Tim Rempel, President of CAR. I've actually known Tim (although not well) ever since Roc Lake nearly 20 years ago. I used to fly with the Canadians annually. Someday I hope to again.
I have no doubt. I think unity is less evident between some clubs.

#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I have no doubt. I think unity is less evident between some clubs.
Unfortunately some people hold grudges for things that happened thirty six years ago and competition is a funny thing that sometimes leads to trash talk. I want Tripoli to be the best high power rocketry and amateur rocketry organization. Tearing down the NAR does not make Tripoli better in any way.

#### cwbullet

##### Obsessed with Rocketry
Staff member
Global Mod
Unfortunately some people hold grudges for things that happened thirty six years ago and competition is a funny thing that sometimes leads to trash talk. I want Tripoli to be the best high power rocketry and amateur rocketry organization. Tearing down the NAR does not make Tripoli better in any way.
I have to agree. Our culture has become so polarized and our hobby is no different. I almost took the lead of our NAR chapter when their leader left a few months ago. Right now, our clubs share a secretary and treasurer. It enforces togetherness.

#### Nytrunner

##### Pop lugs, not drugs
HARA's been holding more Research rules launches this year for the same reason. We had a discussion and investigation into the codes to make sure NAR members didn't lose out if we went that route, and now that TRA recognizes the JR L1 on the range, all seems good. (now the only trick is getting the research folks to come fly)

#### Richard Dierking

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
We all love rocketry. I don't know what form something like this would take, but I believe it would be an excellent opportunity to bring people together and maybe people that would not currently think they have that opportunity.
It would also be a good opportunity to start considering other possibilities when it comes to the execution of national events. A fresh start. Usually, the first things that come up are things like, who's going to host it? And, one might start thinking, big, big, big, and lots of launch pads for launches. It doesn't have to be that way; lots of great things come from humble beginnings. Sometimes it's not good moving around all the time, and cooperative efforts make the work lighter for everyone.
Anyway, many of you are better at saying things, and I enjoy reading them.
I look forward to going to this new celebration of what we all love.

#### jqavins

##### Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
If I want to be apart of both can one do that?
Oh good God no! The two organizations hate each other. If you try to join both then each one will consider you an infidel and send out their respective hit squads. Fortunately for you, they hate each so much that the hit squads are most likely to go after each other, and you'll probably be OK. But I wouldn't risk it.

#### jqavins

##### Joseph Avins
TRF Supporter
There may be lessons from the history of IEEE.
Foundation of the AIEE
In the spring of 1884, a small group of individuals in the electrical professions met in New York, USA. They formed a new organization to support professionals in their nascent field and to aid them in their efforts to apply innovation for the betterment of humanity—the American Institute of Electrical Engineers, or AIEE for short. That October, the AIEE held its first technical meeting in Philadelphia, PA, USA. Many early leaders, such as founding President Norvin Green of Western Union, came from telegraphy.
Others, such as Thomas Edison, came from power, while Alexander Graham Bell represented the telephone industry. Electric power spread rapidly, enhanced by innovations such as AC induction motors, long-distance AC transmission, and larger power plants. Companies such as AEG, General Electric, Siemens & Halske, and Westinghouse underwrote its commercialization. The AIEE became increasingly focused on electrical power and its ability to change people’s lives through the unprecedented products and services it could deliver. There was a secondary focus on wired communication, both the telegraph and the telephone. Through technical meetings, publications, and promotion of standards, the AIEE led the growth of the electrical engineering profession, while through local sections and student branches, it brought its benefits to engineers in widespread places.

Foundation of the IRE
A new industry arose, beginning with Guglielmo Marconi’s wireless telegraphy experiments in 1895-1896. What was originally called “wireless” telegraphy became radio with the electrical amplification possibilities inherent in the vacuum tubes that evolved from John Fleming’s diode and Lee de Forest’s triode. With the new industry came a new society in 1912, the Institute of Radio Engineers.
The IRE was modeled on the AIEE but was devoted to radio, and then broadly to electronics. It also furthered its profession by linking members through publications, standards, and conferences and encouraging them to organize local sections and meetings to exchange information and ideas.

The societies converge and merge
Through the help of leadership from the two societies, and with the applications of its members' innovations to industry, electricity wove its way more deeply into every corner of life, through television, radar, transistors, and computers. Increasingly, the interests of the societies overlapped.
Membership in both societies grew, but beginning in the 1940s, the IRE grew faster and in 1957 became the larger group. On 1 January 1963, the AIEE and the IRE merged to form the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, or IEEE. At its formation, IEEE had 150,000 members, 140,000 of whom resided in the United States.
My father was a member from before the merger of AIEE and IRE (as am I today) and he told me that the founding if the IRE drew a lot of members away from the AIEE, and there was considerably rivalry and some animosity that lasted a long time. And they got over it, obviously. It's very good that NAR's and Tripoli's leadership get along. One hopes that the rest of their memberships will outgrow and animosity eventually.

#### boatgeek

##### Well-Known Member
Oh good God no! The two organizations hate each other. If you try to join both then each one will consider you an infidel and send out their respective hit squads. Fortunately for you, they hate each so much that the hit squads are most likely to go after each other, and you'll probably be OK. But I wouldn't risk it.
Do the hit squads still use rockets for the kill? I heard the TRA guys use a single carbon fiber minimum diameter scratch build on a research HPR motor while NAR uses a fusillade of Estes Wizards on C motors. Not sure which is worse.

#### Nytrunner

##### Pop lugs, not drugs
Do the hit squads still use rockets for the kill? I heard the TRA guys use a single carbon fiber minimum diameter scratch build on a research HPR motor while NAR uses a fusillade of Estes Wizards on C motors. Not sure which is worse.
The volley of C's? Weak!

How about Magicians on E12's. Random explosive damage should causes greater chaos

#### NateB

##### Well-Known Member
The volley of C's? Weak!
The Greeks do it in a little more exciting manner.

#### boatgeek

##### Well-Known Member
The volley of C's? Weak!

How about Magicians on E12's. Random explosive damage should causes greater chaos
It might seem weak, but a cluster fire of 24 Wizards will really ruin your day. You're going to get tagged by at lesat 10 of them no matter how you try to dodge. Plus, on a C those rockets are never seen again after launch. Though I do see the value of an E12 CATO to get the target to turn around just as the Wizards arrive.

#### CalebJ

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
You could also use an accelerometer to air start the E on impact. Bad day for everyone.

#### Nytrunner

##### Pop lugs, not drugs
That's an amazing tradition. Probably a pain for the residents right next to the churches still

#### Arsenal78

##### Well-Known Member
NAR is more focused on low power and outreach, whereas Tripoli is more for just having fun imo. NAR is a little more aggressive with the rules as well. Both organizations have rules but seems like with NAR, its their way or the highway.

#### ChicagoDave

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
FWIW I'm a (newish) member of both organizations. If you have the means then I highly suggest joining both. Naturally each one is different and has a slightly different focus as you would expect. Some clubs are only Tripoli or NAR and others both. Personally I found a fit more with Tripoli (for whatever reason, nothing against NAR in any way) but I fly both and enjoy meeting new friends and learning new things at every launch no matter which organization.

One thing I will say is Tripoli is much more focused on High Power Rocketry than NAR. I felt that NAR was like, "We like rockets and do HPR also" while Tripoli was more "Welcome! When are you getting your L1? Here's a binder for all your certifications!"

~Dave~

#### o1d_dude

##### 'I battle gravity'
Curious why this topic was posted as “Tripoli VS NAR” instead of “Tripoli & NAR”...sort of begs the question.

Yes in the dark ages, there was bad blood between the two organizations over high power rocketry but that predates my rocketry experience and the issue has been moot for many years now.

My club SARG was for many years both a NAR section as well as a Tripoli prefecture. When our prefect moved out of state, the club eventually became NAR only. Money issues I assume.

As far as I know, my other club LUNAR is NAR only while TCC further south on I-5 is Tripoli only.

Never have had any issues or difficulties at any of the launches other than cert requirements being slightly different and the need for the cert proctor/observer being a member of the appropriate organization.

I am presently a member of the NAR but am thinking about joining Tripoli for purposes of supporting them as well.

My $0.02. #### Nytrunner ##### Pop lugs, not drugs I believe the OP was just presenting the question in terms of choosing this vs that #### jqavins ##### Joseph Avins TRF Supporter Curious why this topic was posted as “Tripoli VS NAR” instead of “Tripoli & NAR”...sort of begs the question. Yes in the dark ages, there was bad blood between the two organizations over high power rocketry but that predates my rocketry experience and the issue has been moot for many years now. That's been my experience too, but I keep hearing second hand that there are at least pockets of tension and bad will. And I believe Nytrunner is right that is was "vs." in sense of comparison, not conflict. #### Steve Shannon ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Curious why this topic was posted as “Tripoli VS NAR” instead of “Tripoli & NAR”...sort of begs the question. Yes in the dark ages, there was bad blood between the two organizations over high power rocketry but that predates my rocketry experience and the issue has been moot for many years now. My club SARG was for many years both a NAR section as well as a Tripoli prefecture. When our prefect moved out of state, the club eventually became NAR only. Money issues I assume. As far as I know, my other club LUNAR is NAR only while TCC further south on I-5 is Tripoli only. Never have had any issues or difficulties at any of the launches other than cert requirements being slightly different and the need for the cert proctor/observer being a member of the appropriate organization. I am presently a member of the NAR but am thinking about joining Tripoli for purposes of supporting them as well. My$0.02.
We’ll welcome you!
During the lawsuit, each Prefecture paid fees of $100/year. Now it’s only$10/year and Prefectures in good standing are able to apply for Prefecture Improvement Program grants up to \$500, so it’s a pretty decent ROI.

#### Alan15578

##### Well-Known Member
Do the hit squads still use rockets for the kill? I heard the TRA guys use a single carbon fiber minimum diameter scratch build on a research HPR motor while NAR uses a fusillade of Estes Wizards on C motors. Not sure which is worse.
It depends on the year. Designated hitter and all.

#### Ez2cDave

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Wondering why NAR and TRA haven't ever held a national event together?
Interesting suggestion, but I don’t see how it would work as far as insurance for the landowner and organizers. Members of both organizations are covered by their own organization’s insurance, so that’s no problem, but we specify which organization’s rules are being followed in order to avoid confusion for insurance coverage.
Whose Safety Codes would it follow? We have to pick one. I could see it being an event under the Tripoli Safety Codes, with Tripoli and NAR co-sponsoring it. That would allow Research motors.
I’m not against the idea - a national event combining members of both organizations. It could be a lot of fun.
It could become the "WOODSTOCK" of Rocketry !

#### Ez2cDave

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I can't think of anything a NAR launch allows that Tripoli Launches do not other than non-members on the HPR range.
What about the differences in the "Safing Requirements" for Electronics, between TRA & NAR ?

#### Ez2cDave

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Unfortunately some people hold grudges for things that happened thirty six years ago and competition is a funny thing that sometimes leads to trash talk. I want Tripoli to be the best high power rocketry and amateur rocketry organization. Tearing down the NAR does not make Tripoli better in any way.
It's time for an "Olive Branch" between NAR & TRIPOLI, publicly, for all Members to see . . .

Imagery :

Steve Shannon approaches from one direction, while John Hochheimer approaches from the opposite direction, like two gunslingers in a Western movie.

They come face to face and, after, a brief pause and looking each other up & down, they simultaneously extend their right hands and shake hands.

The handshake turns into an brief embrace, with back-slapping.

Both of them then turn towards the Range Head and stroll back, together !

Dave F.

#### boatgeek

##### Well-Known Member
Many regional clubs belong to both organizations. Ours in Montana is Big Sky Rocketry Association, which combines NAR Montana and Tripoli Montana. As I mentioned we have to choose which organization's insurance covers our launches. We always choose Tripoli because that allows Research to be flown also, but doing something that attracts the boards and officers from both organizations sounds like it would be fun. I'll talk to John about it.
One our local clubs does a split launch for their big annual launch. One day is under TRA rules for research motors, then the other days are NAR rules for slightly relaxed HPR pad access rules. I'm not sure the latter is even needed now.

#### Alan15578

##### Well-Known Member
History records an interesting account of the "acceptance of HPR" by the NAR . . . PDF below.

Dave F.
"Unbeknownst to the NAR, a number of people at the time were flying high-power rockets
at local sport launches or side by side with competition rockets at NAR events. Unlike
NARAM’s today, where the sport range is busier than the competition range, sport flying
was almost unheard of at a NAR launch. At one of our regional meets early in 1980,
several uncertified F, G and H motors were flown in overweight rockets. Somehow,
word of this leaked out and later that year while at NARAM-22, another SNOAR
member and I were called on the carpet by Mark Bundick, the National Contest Board
Chairman and questioned about it. This is where the famous, "Who flew the G?" quote
came from."

I was there. So, was this the historical event that eventually led to the legitimization of HPR and the formation of the TRA?

Dave Cook and I, competing as the Hawkeye Team, journeyed from central Iowa and St. Louis to win our fourth straight regional contest, at Medina Ohio, and contend for the National Team Championship. It is still the farthest I have traveled for a regional meet. We were quite busy flying the contest and I could not attest to everything that may have happened there. I think we won every event except one. We had no clue that something untoward might happen. I was actually hoping that our "evil adversary" might show up and we could take points away from them.

At some point I noticed a gathering near the range head and I went over for a look. Some people were building a monster rocket on the field. It had 10 or so Estes D12 motors. The fins were cheap sheet styrofoam, edged with Spruce and duct taped to the rocket. I objected, not just to the size, I thought the rocket might be dangerously unsafe. But I had no authority there. The rocket flew successfully. At the end of the contest a small G powered rocket was flown. I have no recollection of "several uncertified F, G, and H motors". At NARAM-22 Dave and I were separately interrogated by the Grand Inquisitor. He threatened to void the regional, taking away our earned points and any chance of winning the National Championship. Oddly, he seemed unconcerned about the monster D12 rocket and was focussed on "Who flew the G?" To this day, I do not know nor care who flew the G. However, I would like to know who the manufacturer of that G was. Was it a legitimate manufacturer that produced a motor that could have been certified yeras later?

To this day, I have not flown HPR or even LMR. I just have not had a need yet to justify the expense. I did buy an AT G80 to add to my collection and to have on hand if the need arises. I think HPR is a good thing and and has kept many older rocketeers on board. Both NAR and TRA are worthy organizations. TRA has grown from its early radical cowboy roots. The NAR has slipped a bit from from being the ultimate STEM activity. They still have R&D, but they sequester members reports behind a membership pay wall. If you must choose one, pick the one with the best local club, the one with the most intersting members or the best flying field.

#### Ez2cDave

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
If the "truth" be known, to my knowledge, what would later become "HPR" started in August of 1976, when I witnessed the launch of an "all-up" ENERJET UPRATED 2650 SOUNDING ROCKET . . . It was a shame that ENERJET motors had been discontinued, but there was a pretty sizeable "stash" among our group ( probably 50 or 60 motors, in all ).

In the first stage, 3 F67-6 motors were used. Two of the tubes contained parachutes, activated by the motors' ejection charge, while the third tube housed a Mercury Switch staging unit & 9-volt battery.

The second stage contained 3 F67-14 motors. Ignition was accomplished by using AG-1 flashbulbs and "sheathed" ENERJET "wick-type" igniters ( the "sheathing" greatly increased the burn rate of the igniter wick ).

The rocket left the pad in a flash, staged successfully, and roared out of sight . . . It took us over 2 hours of searching to find the upper stage. All 6 of the ENERJET motors had lit and the altitude was estimated to be 9,000 -10,000 ft, since the launch occurred near Sea Level ( South Florida ).

I suspect that Gary Rosenfield may have made a similar flight or flights, earlier than this one, but I have never heard mention of it. "HPR" is older than many think !

Dave F.