Trajectory Measurement =advanced=

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Hospital_Rocket

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I am hoping there are some RC helicopter fans here who can speak to the functionality of the gyroscopes used in stabilization. I want to start designing a microprocessr based payload that not only measures velocity and altitude, but pitch, yaw, and roll.

My end goal is to build a flight computer that can do two thingd

short term - provide enough data to actually plot the exact trajectory a rocket followed.

Long term - video switch performance statistics over a live video feed so post flight analysis.

I am also considering instrumenting the recovery harness to measure the abuse the shock cord withstands during flight. I would probably place a load cell at one end or the other of the shock cord.

A final consideration is measuring the pressure generated by the deployment charge before the BT opens up.

Any thoughts or ideas?

A
 
Just a comment on the tension and pressure sensors. You can get an "S" strain sensor and that should work great for measuring deployment. A pressure tranducer should be more than sufficent for measuring the pressure of a BP charge in a body tube. I would be interested in the results.

Edward
 
Biggest hing I am concerned about is the shock a recovery harness endures as the parachute deploys. A lload cell normally has a specific range and I would be concerned that if I sized it to the spike of the initial deployment, any other measurements may be lost in the noise.

Time to do some research...
 
interesting , how would you set up the load cell to measure tension, pull?

we use them alot at work but they typically measure by compression. sounds like a nice test bed rocket have any designs yet?
 
Originally posted by stymye
interesting , how would you set up the load cell to measure tension, pull?

we use them alot at work but they typically measure by compression. sounds like a nice test bed rocket have any designs yet?

Since it measures "strain", it measures both positive and negative loads. Whwn I pick up my digital scale by the platten it measures its own weight for example.

Merry Jerry
 
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
I would be concerned that if I sized it to the spike of the initial deployment, any other measurements may be lost in the noise.

Why not use two sensors, in series?
The 'big' one could be sized to pick up the opening 'chute loads.
The second 'small' one could be protected by a mechanical lock to hold off all recovery system loads until some amount of time (five seconds?) elapses from deployment. Then a mechanical release would allow a smaller sensor to monitor suspension loads during descent.
You could do this as simply as using an igniter (on a time delay) to burn through a cord to enable the second load cell.
 
Under consideration. My initial plan is to have the load cell mounted to the bulkhead plate that makes up the coupler that jouns the sections. the harness would mount to the load cell. The concern I have is if I have a smaller load cell, I have to make sure it is not destroyed when the parachute inflates.

Another instumentation Idea I am considering is an LVDT or Linear Variable Differential Transformer. With this, a spring, and weight Hook's constant, and a little arithmetic, I should be able to measure instantaneous acceleration/velocity, and altitude throughout the flight. It would be a different measurement technique that using a baromentric sensor.
 
H8-1

Your three axis measurement system is exactly what I had in mind. The
ADXRS150 Angular Rate Sensor (or something like it) is probably the heart of some of those model helicopter gyros. As I don't have PCB fabrication available to me, doubt that wire wrap would be the best rocketry solution, and my wive would kill me if I drug home a bottle if Ferric Chloride etchant.

I did not stop to think there would be a good solid state accelerometer as well. I origionally thought to base ny acquisition system on some small embedded microprocessor like a 6502, however, aaain my lack of fabrication facility gets in the way. I'm snooping for some PC104 Bus uComputer subsystems to handle the data storage tasks.

Still thinking it over.
 
HR, these days you can get more than enough microprocessor & memory to work on small batteries. a PC104 & batteries would require an L2 bird to fly, at least! if you want to start small check out PIC processor systems. if you are more comfortable with higher level code, check out Systronix's TINI embedded Java (!) systems. they come on a DIMM, have lots of flash, lots of parallel, serial, analog I/O - perfect for your application.
 
Al

You can buy an AED RDAS with additional x and y acclerometers, a GPS, a wireless transmitter, and install 3 hall effect probes in a x, y, z orientation on the additional channels.

https://home.iae.nl/users/aed/rdas/rdas.htm

https://home.iae.nl/users/aed/rdas/gps.htm

https://www.aeroconsystems.com/electronics/mad.htm

This should provide 3-axis acceleration vectors, earths magnetic field reference vector, barometeric altitude and gps altitude and speed, all in real time. You should be able to totally define the vehicle dynamics with this data.

https://www.tern.com isa great source of low cost, small microcontrollers that would be great for super high powered rocket data acquisition systems if the RDAS is not sufficient.

A strain gauge used for weighing is perfectly adequate to measure deployment loads to the few hundred hz range. If you have a good bridge amplifier, you should be able to get at least 12-bit resolution.

The costs of professionally manufctured PCB is so low it hardly pays to do it yourself. As Zack points out, ExpressPBC is quick and cheap and their free software is easy to use. You can also download a limited version of Eagle PCB software for free for non-commercial use. You are restricted to EuroCard sized boards, but that's plenty for a flight computer. Eagle generates industry standard gerber files, so any PCB vendor can read it. The PCB industry is operating in a dog eat dog mode so the prices are really cheap.

Bob Krech
 
I have been out of hardware design waaaay too long. Last time I did a four layer prototype PCB, it cost over $1000. :)

I have beeen considering a PIC,. In fact I've been closely following a great thread on a PIC based wireless remote launch system. I think the author is a guy named Robert DeHate.

As usual Bob, you have given me some serious homework to read, The advantage to using a strain gage would be to create a really light subassembly. The downside is the wiring and encapsulation to protect it.

As to the PC104, I was hoping to avoid one of my least favorite activities, writing and debugging code. I could buy a canned data aquisition system from someone like National Instruments (LabView comes to mind).

I have considered that my design thoughts so far need a M to get them off the pad.
 
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
As to the PC104, I was hoping to avoid one of my least favorite activities, writing and debugging code. I could buy a canned data aquisition system from someone like National Instruments (LabView comes to mind).

I have considered that my design thoughts so far need a M to get them off the pad.

Al

I hate LabView. Too much overhead. I use DATAQ hardware and software for my paying job when I want to just collect data, and want to keep it simple.

Check out https://www.dataq.com/index.html for a dynamite stand-alone 16 channel data logger that requires zero programming.

Specifically https://www.dataq.com/products/hardware/di710.htm

DI-710-ULS* Low-cost, portable, USB data acquisition system featuring 16 single-ended or 8 differential analog inputs, a maximum sample rate up to 4800 samples/second, maximum sample rate up to 14400 samples per second to memory card, and programmable gain ranges of 1, 10, 100, and 1000. Includes USB and Power cables, software, and documentation.

DATAQ Data Acquisition To Go - Complete portability in a small (5.4375"D × 4.125"W × 1.5"H), lightweight (14 oz.), self-contained package with built-in signal connectors. Use the DI-710 with desktop, transportable, notebook, or laptop computers or over an installed Ethernet or as a stand-alone data logger. I'm sure if you took it out of the case it would be much more compact and lighter, and fit in a 4" rocket.

What sold me on DATAQ is the software. Just like Adobe, they give you a full-blown Browser, and a lower acq rate Data Reader. You simply set it up like a strip chart recorder, and take the data. You look at the data just like a strip chart recorder, except that you can put real world calibrations into the files (but you don't loose the volts values). Even better, the Browser makes .CSV files that directly import into EXCEL. For short change, they have an add-in for their reader that imports the data into EXCEL real-time as well.

Check it out.

Bob Krech
 
Henry8minus1

You asked. "When you suggest using the Hall Effect probes, I am assuming that you will detect the earth's magnetic field and thus be able to correlate the rocket's direction based on this. Is this correct?"

That's correct. My idea is quite simple. Why not use the earth's magnetic field as an absolute reference point. If you are not going more than several miles in any direction, the vector of the earth's magnetic field shouldn't change very much, and if you can track it, you have an inertial reference point external to the rocket to correlate the rockets dynamics as measured by the accelerometers which are referenced to the rockets axises, but not to a terrestial reference. Electronic compasses use 2-D Hall effect sensor to find magnetic north, and the Magnetic Apogee Sensor uses a 1-D Hall effects sensor to measure tilt, so combine both into one system and you have a pretty simple inertial refererence system that should be accurate to a few degrees.

Robert Galejs, a fellow member of CMASS and an MIT faculty member, used Hall sensors to detect apogee. To save a lot of typing, I'm going to refer you to a number of references on the required hardware and physics and mechanics on the following websites.

https://aeroconsystems.com/electronics/mad.htm

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...LD:2003-40,GGLD:en&q=magnetic+apogee+detector

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/rocket_payloads.asp

A Philips KMZ51 1-axis sensor mounted in the axial (z-axis) oriention would be used to measure the dip in the magnetic field which is proportional to the the vertical tilt angle of rocket and a KMZ52 2-axis sensor mounted perpendicular to the central axis (x- and y-axis) would be used as a flux gate compass to find magnetic north. By mathematical manipulation of the magnetic vectrors, it is possible to determine the attitude of the rocket with respect to the earth's magnetic field as a function of time which then yields the pitch and roll rates of the rocket. Once this is determined, it is straightforward to correctly interpret the 3-axis accelerometer data to obtain the true Vx, Vy, Vz components of the flight and by integration you can determine Dx, Dy, Dz as a function of time which is the trajectory.

The method could be extended to greater distances by recursively calculating the magnetic field variation as a function of the calculated Dx, Dy and Dz.

The relevant Philips datasheets and app notes on electronic compasses are found here.

https://www.semiconductors.philips.com/cgi-bin/Inquiro/Search.pl?query='Electronic%20compass%20design%20using%20KMZ51%20and%20KMZ52'

I hope this was not too terse.

Bob Krech
 
Henry8minus1

Phipips make a lot of good semiconductor products but getting information on them and where to buy them is like pulling teath.

I would suggest you e-mail Philips to locate their distributors. If you register on their website, you can probably get one or two free samples for development purposes.

There are comparable Honeywell IC but Honeywell is outrageously expensive (probably got to use to dealing withUncle Sam.).

https://www.ssec.honeywell.com/magnetic/products.html

These are pretty good reference sites on magnetometers.

https://magnetometer.captain.at/mag-magnetoresistive.php

https://www.pacificsites.com/~brooke/Sensors.shtml

Bob Krech
 
Since you did mention R/C helicopter Gyro's I wanted to give you some basic info which may indicate why they may or may not be good for your needs. I hope it's usefull information.

The latest thing going in heli gyros is AVCS (Angular Velocity Control System) rate gyro designs, several manufacturers, similar function.

Older heli gyro's were designed to counteract engine torque, but when you flew around the tail would trail behind the helicopter (similar to an airplane) without having to feed a control input into the gyro. Input from the remote control adjusts the travel of the tail rotor servo. The older style has become less popular because it doesn't suit the new style of 3D Flying(29 meg video DL) . (Watch the tail)

With an AVCS / heading-lock gyro, the gyro maintains the heading it was initialized with, or left at after the last control input from the radio... Control input from the radio only controls yaw rate, and is not directly linked to the travel of the servo. For the most part, the few exceptions are explained below. This means you can flip or roll the helicopter, fly it upside down, whatever you like, and as long as you don't touch the tail rotor control, the gyro will do it's best to maintain the current position. If you want the tail to follow the heli you have to feed the control in yourself in a turn.

For helicopters it works very well when coupled with high performance servos. With a high end servo, the response time is around .06 seconds for 60 degrees output gear travel with 47.2 oz-in of torque at a 70Hz update rate

There are certain aspects which affect the ability of the gyro to maintain a heading lock. One is a solid minimal slop control system utlizing ball links and no/low flex control rods such as carbon fiber tubes with machined metal ends.

Another issue is appropriate gain settings, if the gain is too high it will get into a feedback loop causing a 'wag'. If it is too low it will not enact enough control which, in a heli, will cause the tail to drift, not sure how it would affect a rocket. These systems work well in heli's going 75-85 Mph, even backwards.

The other issue is vibration, the better isolated the gyro is from vibration the higher you can set it's gain. Since there are no pistons, shafts, blades, paddels, or gears which may be off balance in a rocket and considering the fact that motor thrust is along the vertical access of the rocket, not the yaw access, it may not be a huge issue.

The final consideration is that some gyros do require an input from a radio reciever, or a micrcontroller emulating the pulse train it expects to see from a reciever. Futaba makes a few flavors the GY240 has gain adjustability onboard, but no travel adjustment. The GY401 has travel and delay adjustments (usually set to 0 for a heli) on the case, but requires and external signal on the 'gain' lead to get it into heading hold mode. There are higher end models, but the features may not be too usefull on a rocket.

Is this for you? I guess that would be for you to decide, specs on these Gyro's can be found at www.futaba-rc.com

I apologize for the long post, it's one of the few areas in this forum I can contribute usefull information to.
 
Jon,

After looking at the data sheets of a couple of the helicopter gyros I have a question for you. Is it possible to get the actual angular velocity rates from these gyros, or do they only give the control output (for the servo)? Is there a way to hack in to get the angluar velocity? It sounds as if you have experiance with these and you may know.

Thanks,

Jeff
 
With the wires which are available the most you would be able to gather is the correction input which the gyro was feeding out to the servo as a varying PWM signal.

If you were to pop the top off the gyro I'm sure you could track the actual accelerometers output line, perhaps behind the filter/op-amp if existant (might be an SPI interface though, in which case this is a 'moot' point).

I'm attaching a photo of a uncovered gyro so you can see what's inside component wise. If you have the programming and electronic skills necessary you could probably just buy the gyro chip singularly and work out your own system. I have built 2-axis accelerometer data recorders to some success with the ADXL line from Analog Devices and an Atmel µc chip, it took me about a couple of months to figure it out from scratch and looking through existing Analog to digital code and libraries, I imagine gyroscopes would be similar unless you use one with a serial digital output.

Here's the pic: 228KB (Blurry, my camera doesn't do close pics well)
https://www.thaltech.com/jonshelis/pics/misc/gy401innards.jpg

EDIT:
I thought I should provide more info on the servo output. As an additional note about the 'corrective' PWM signal the gyro sends to the servo. It's a standard servo pulse width. Center being around around 1.5ms and 1ms and 2ms being the end of travel in either directions.

When this type of gyro corrects it uses the gain setting to determine how far to drive the servo ouput for a certain movement off center.

The more off-center the gyro is, the larger the control input is to the servo. As the tail of the helicopter begins to go near the gyro's 'center' position, the gyro reduces the throw in either direction until it is back to around 1.5ms in the middle.

All in all it is allows for a very natural and smooth operation and correction of the tail. The output resolution from the gyro in standard mode is 70hz, in DS mode(Digital servo) it's 270hz. I believe the resolution is 1024 positions, so 512 steps on either side of center. It will reach the endpoint position before at around 20-30 degrees of rotation either way.
 
Originally posted by vjp
Spark Fun sells Analog ADXR gyro chips mounted on breakout boards (the **** things are too tiny to work with otherwise); they produce a voltage output proportional to the turn rate.

Go to https://www.sparkfun.com click "Sensors" and scroll down to "ADXRS Gyro Breakout Board".

The data sheets for the ADXR chips are at https://www.analog.com/en/subCat/0,2879,764%5F801%5F0%5F%5F0%5F,00.html

If you go directly to Analog.com you can get an evaluation board for cheaper than Sparkfun ($50 compared to $65). The board is configured in an 20 pin DIP package for ease of use.
 
Originally posted by JPC
With the wires which are available the most you would be able to gather is the correction input which the gyro was feeding out to the servo as a varying PWM signal.

If you were to pop the top off the gyro I'm sure you could track the actual accelerometers output line, perhaps behind the filter/op-amp if existant (might be an SPI interface though, in which case this is a 'moot' point).

I'm attaching a photo of a uncovered gyro so you can see what's inside component wise. If you have the programming and electronic skills necessary you could probably just buy the gyro chip singularly and work out your own system. I have built 2-axis accelerometer data recorders to some success with the ADXL line from Analog Devices and an Atmel µc chip, it took me about a couple of months to figure it out from scratch and looking through existing Analog to digital code and libraries, I imagine gyroscopes would be similar unless you use one with a serial digital output.

Here's the pic: 228KB (Blurry, my camera doesn't do close pics well)
https://www.thaltech.com/jonshelis/pics/misc/gy401innards.jpg

EDIT:
I thought I should provide more info on the servo output. As an additional note about the 'corrective' PWM signal the gyro sends to the servo. It's a standard servo pulse width. Center being around around 1.5ms and 1ms and 2ms being the end of travel in either directions.

When this type of gyro corrects it uses the gain setting to determine how far to drive the servo ouput for a certain movement off center.

The more off-center the gyro is, the larger the control input is to the servo. As the tail of the helicopter begins to go near the gyro's 'center' position, the gyro reduces the throw in either direction until it is back to around 1.5ms in the middle.

All in all it is allows for a very natural and smooth operation and correction of the tail. The output resolution from the gyro in standard mode is 70hz, in DS mode(Digital servo) it's 270hz. I believe the resolution is 1024 positions, so 512 steps on either side of center. It will reach the endpoint position before at around 20-30 degrees of rotation either way.

Thanks for the detail on how these work. It looks like a helicopter gyro won't work for what I want to do. If I use gyros I will go the Analog Devices route.

Jeff
 
Because this thread came back to life, I started to do some more thinking about making a platform for trajectory measurement, and I actually started writing things down. I have attached a simple block diagram of my current thoughts. This design is still in its infancy and I will have a lot more work to do to make it work, but wanted to put this out and see if anyone has some thoughts or suggestions.

The idea really started to come together when I found a 3-axis magnetometer by PNI on a integrated easy-to-use module for $50.
More info here:https://www.pnicorp.com/productDetail?nodeId=cMM3
The idea of using magnetic field sensors was discussed earlier in this thread, and this sensor provides the perfect solution. Ideally I would like to have 3-axis accels, 3-axis magnetic field, 3-axis gyro, and a gps receiver. But I can leave out the gyros and gps and save quite a bit of money. I am considering designing in the gyros and gps so it can be added on later. If I use gyros I will use Analog Devices ADXRS300 chips.
Info Here:https://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,ADXRS300,00.html
I have looked at a couple of gps modules, but haven't decided on one if I choose to go that route.

For the Accelerometers I can't decide between ones from Analog Devices or from Freescale Semiconductor. I have used the ones from Analog Devices in the past, but they have stopped giving them as samples. Freescale has some nice accels including a 3-axis one (this would allow everything to be on one board), and will give samples.
Info on Analog accels:https://www.analog.com/en/subCat/0,2879,764%5F800%5F0%5F%5F0%5F,00.html
Info on Freescale sensors:https://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/homepage.jsp?nodeId=011269
I will go with a Freescale pressure sensor to get altitude.

For memory I will put in a SD memory card socket. For communication I will use a USART to USB conversion chip. Both of these are available from Sparkfun Electronics. https://www.sparkfun.com

I will design in the capability to have telemetry, but probably won't populate it until later. I have found a nice RF module by XEMICS.
More info:https://www.xemics.com/internet/products/development_tools/products.jsp?productID=93&expand=9

For the microcontroller I will use one of Microchips's dsPIC30 chips, because I have the development tools for them.

For power I am considering using a step-up converter that would allow me to use a single AAA or AA cell. I am a little apprehensive of this approach because I have not done this before and would hate for things not to work because I didn't get the power supplies right. If I don't do this I will power everything with a 9V battery or Lithium Ion Polymer cell and a linear regulator.

This project is still on the back burner until I finish a robot I am currently working on for a competition this fall, but I think I will start laying out a schematic soon. Let me know what you think, and I will keep you all updated.

Jeff
 
I was checking out the Sparkfun link which VJP posted and they sell a 3-axis accelerometer device(chip), one less component to worry about. I was somewhat surprised as I had never heard of this company before but they have a lot of handy items to play with all in one place, particularly the telemtry downlink modules look interesting.

It sounds as if you have a great DA system laid out Jeff, good luck with it once you get some time for it.
 
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