Too much ejection charge?

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pr_rocket04

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I just ordered some packs of Estes E9-8's for my Swarm Junior 12x24mm which should arrive soon. I'm only using a cluster of six for the first launch, but I thought about possible airframe failure due to a large ejection charge. I realize all the motors will not pressurize the chamber at the exact same moment, but has anyone ever had a failure due to a charge too big? I would just like to know so I can find plugged motors if it's much of an issue. Thanks.
 
Originally posted by pr_rocket04
I just ordered some packs of Estes E9-8's for my Swarm Junior 12x24mm which should arrive soon. I'm only using a cluster of six for the first launch, but I thought about possible airframe failure due to a large ejection charge. I realize all the motors will not pressurize the chamber at the exact same moment, but has anyone ever had a failure due to a charge too big? I would just like to know so I can find plugged motors if it's much of an issue. Thanks.

I haven't. But I have seen one motor of a cluster pop the top, then the others go off and jerk the bird sideways after the chute was out. I was amazed the (plastic Estes) chute didn't shred.

You are talking about up to 12 grams of BP going off (1 gm per E motor, according to Estes).

Is it enough? Too much? Depends on the size of the bird. Here's a page about BP charge sizing including tables and calculators: https://www.info-central.org/recovery_powder.shtml
 
In my lastest cluster was 4x E9-6's, I never had a problem, the airframe was 3". And I was suprised by the lack of damage to the inside of the airframe after the bird was recoverd, just 2 or 3 scortch marks :rolleyes:
Karl
 
i just flew my Hydra VII clone on 7 motors, all with ejection charges. the estes bt60 handled it without a problem.

one thing i did was to leave the gaps between the motors open to bleed off some of the pressure.
 
make your shock cord long and you should be fine. once the initial pressure is released, it will just make a huge pop. no damage. make sure your NC isnt uber tight though.
 
Even with as many as 12 ejection charges going off in a short period of time with a fully loaded Swarm Jr, they will not go off at *exactly* the same time--a good thing in this case!

You could alleviate the problem by using some plugged motors OR you could use motors with different delay times. Using motors with different delay times may not work for your application though if you really need the full 8 seconds delay. *IF* it were closer to 6 seconds, you could "mix 'n' match" 6 & 8 second delays to allow plenty of time for the ejection charges without overstressing the airframe.

Look forward to seeing pics of you launching the Swarm Jr too! :D

HTH,
 
I wouldn't recommend having different delays or having more then 1 non plugged motor. After the first motor pops the chute comes out, so does the wadding. Then when the other ones pop they could burn the shock cord. BUT THEN THERE IS ALWAYS KEVLAR!!! hehe, I used 3 grams on my 4" by 30" section of a rocket. It had a tight chute and the nose came off like a projectile. a gram more and it would of destroyed the rocket. That is a 4" rocket with 3 grams, a small rocket with 12 is a problem. If it is a good size rocket I would use 2 or 3 motors normal and the others pluged. I believe there is a trick were you can take the ejection charge out.
 
I had a 4 18mm fatboy and i always use different delays as a back up . It saved it several times like the chute hung up and started to fall then the other delays went off then deployed the chute saving my FatBoy. When I say I had a Fatboy It was eaten by a very very tall tree:(
 
Originally posted by jraice
I believe there is a trick were you can take the ejection charge out.

This is a really bad idea. We are not supposed to be fooling around with the insides of these motors, in any way, shape, or form. It is dangerous if you do not know what you are doing, and it is dangerous if you DO know what you are doing. Let's not encourage anyone to try this.

There is absolutely no reason to worry about over-pressurizing the insides of a rocket just because you have a bunch of ejection charges. Chances are pretty close to infinitely small that all the ejection blasts will occur simultaneously---you have a better chance of winning the lottery. And once the first ejection pops, the remaining charges are just dumped through the open front of the body tube.
 
I don't like to use shock cord (either the elastic straps or the old/new rubber bands) in the portion of the recovery anchor system that actually goes inside the body tube.

I use either Kevlar or nylon cord to attach to the motor mount or to the inside of the BT. Whatever I happen to use, I soak with a good slather of glue to penetrate the cord insides and to cover it well. Glue the cord before you build and you can reach all of it for this treatment.

I protect the cord this way because it helps make it more resistant to the momentary heat load (flux, in engineer-talk) if there is one big thick fiber with minimal surface area, as compared to many threads woven together where hot gas can get into the middle. A coating of Elmers-type glue does little to restrict any small stretch that the cord makes, but if you are really worried about it you could use another glue like silicone rubber.

Using a tether to attach to the rocket allows you to have a point outside the rocket to clip on a shock-absorbing cord, or to make replacements. It also moves the shock cord farther out the front to a zone where ejection gasses have dissipated and weakened, and do not scorch the shock cord nearly as badly.

Anyway, when the ejection gas passes through the insides of the rocket it is only there for a moment. The heat load is related to (proportional to?) ejection gas temperature, but the absorption of heat into the airframe and anchor is (I think) more related to the duration of exposure. And once the first charge goes off and the BT is empty, subsequent ejection charges go by even faster.

To protect the insides of the BT you can swab it with thinned Elmers (remember to sand lightly afterward). If you want to strengthen it significantly you can swab the insides with CA (ditto the sanding thing). Both will add significant resistance to the heat of ejection gasses.

To protect the tether cord even more, you can pull it taught so it runs straight out the front of the BT and lays against the inside wall. Add a covering/fillet of glue reaching all the way back to the anchor point but remember NOT to glue the front few inches (so you can fold the tether back and still insert the NC).

For really small rockets (BT5 and 20) where it's hard to work inside the BT, put the anchor point on the outside of the rocket. Prep for flight by inserting ejection wadding first, then the recovery device and shock cord, then pull the tether tightly up the outside of the BT and tuck it under the NC.

There are LOTS of ways to build for durability and for reliable recovery system operation, WITHOUT having to dig into motors to try to disable ejection charges.
 
I also use kevlar. In my cluster of 4x 24mm rockets, I used 100kg Kevlar and it held up perfectley.

Over-pressurization is not a worry. Before the tube blows, the nosecone will be out to realease the pressure inside.

Karl
 
i definately wouldnt try taking out the ejection charge. first of all, it violates the NAR safety code, so when you fly it, you can say goodbye to that insurance coverage. second of all, its quite dangerous, as BP is rather easy to ignite. third of all, there's a reason why they make em plugged, this is the reason. lol. i dont think it would be a problem, but if you do, then go with half and half. half plugged, half 8's.
 
Yep, just be sure that when you plug them, plug them with Epoxy (15/30min). And make sure that the Resin & Hardner are throughly mixed like normal. To make sure that it will hold up, leave it for atleast 2hours for it to fully cure, and you've got yourself a plugged motor :)

Karl
 
I've used hot glue before on C motors to plug them, but I'll probably still use epoxy on the E's.
 
I'd like to share a bit of philosophy that Daveyfire shared with me at ROCStock XX:

"Blow it out or blow it up!"

There ya go.

Jason
 
Or you can just buy the plugged E9-P's made for rocket gliders.
 
that is such a bad idea, 1 gram of BP is sufficient to blow that casing up if the nozzle is nice and snug. i would not recommend it if you value your fincans.
 
You could plug the motor tubes (all but one) so that it ejects the motor casing, but doesn't pop (For shorter delays, or burn it for longer ones) the 'chute. This way, you can also mix different kinds of 24mm motors. Just be sure that you put the longest burn time in the non-plugged tubes or this :kill: will happen to your rocket!
 
Some of these suggestions are really making this waaay more difficult than it needs to be.

Over pressurization will NOT happen....repeat it will NOT happen even with the 12 BP motors in question.

The most basic example I can use to explain this is packing a tightly fit spit ball into a drinking straw (the spit ball simulates the nose cone)....send a quick burst of air through the straw....(notice what happens).....now send 11 more quick bursts of air through the straw (see how easy air passes throgh the straw with the spit ball gone?).

As for torching the recovery cord.....it would show little more wear than if it had just flown 12 flights......use a kevlar anchor....or a stainless fishing lead if you are really scared.

The bottom line (and thing to remember) is that the 12 ejection charges will NOT fire at the same time....nothing against Estes...but so many variables are at play here that you are all but guaranteed that they will not fire together.

Good Luck,

Westy
 
There is one advantage to my way, though.You can launch it on 3 motors if it is a really windy day:D so that it won't get :kill: !!!
 
I actually just removed the ejection charges from the E's, the simplest way yet! It's going to use an altimeter deploy instead. Thanks for the info guys.
 
Originally posted by Westy
The bottom line (and thing to remember) is that the 12 ejection charges will NOT fire at the same time....nothing against Estes...but so many variables are at play here that you are all but guaranteed that they will not fire together.

If you can even get all 12 motors to light...
 
I have never had a problem with clustered ejection charges. In my thumper (which is a little different than estes) I used the ejection charge (1 gram in each) in all 5 motors of my rocket. They went off about the same time, but it will not make any difference! I had a fat boy with 3 E9-6's, and everything was fine, no burning.

You dont need to change anything!
 
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