Thoughts and Comments on Who Sabotaged the Russian Nord Stream 1 & 2 Pipelines

[Peartree]

So far, the German elites are apparently okay with this. But if the German people were to learn the truth, there could be social unrest in Germany and NATO. Remember, their industrial output is suffering with shortages and high fuel costs.

Its worth remembering that high German fuel prices were spiking even before the Nord Stream explosion due to Germany's decision to shut down, defuel, and dismantle all of their nuclear power plants after Fukushima. Shutting down their reactors as a response to a Japanese earthquake, despite not having active seismic fault lines seems to have been an overreaction. Particularly so in choosing to do so before adequate renewable generation came online. Their plan all along was to switch to renewable. Gas was never intended to be a major energy source permanently but was a stopgap as they shuttered their nuke plants. If you want to find the root cause of high German energy prices, you don't need to leave the borders of Germany. They had a big problem before Nordstream and their persistence on the abandonment of nuclear power before securing replacement sources, even after Nordstream, is sufficient cause. The Nordstream explosion was just one more thing that exacerbated an existing problem but it neither the root cause of the problem nor the only exacerbating issue.

 

[boatgeek]

Invoking God? I thought religion was taboo on the forum. Where's the thread for that??

But as for our motive, I reiterate, it was economic. But it cannot become public without very severe political and economic consequences. We as Americans may carry the burden of shame and guilt until the time of judgement, both individually and as a nation. Some crimes will remain forever secret. Fortunately, the Nord Stream sabotage will not.

It's an expression. You may have heard of it. You may also have noticed that God in general is regularly invoked on this forum. The moderation line appears to be drawn at proselytizing and/or "X is better than Y", though I don't know that I've seen anyone test it.

You have a truly amazing ability to skip past the inconvenient things when you respond. Was Hersh accurate when he said that Stoltenberg was cooperating with US intelligence in high school? Do any of the other gross errors in Hersh story make you any less likely to believe the rest?

 

[rharshberger]

It's an expression. You may have heard of it. You may also have noticed that God in general is regularly invoked on this forum. The moderation line appears to be drawn at proselytizing and/or "X is better than Y", though I don't know that I've seen anyone test it.

You have a truly amazing ability to skip past the inconvenient things when you respond. Was Hersh accurate when he said that Stoltenberg was cooperating with US intelligence in high school? Do any of the other gross errors in Hersh story make you any less likely to believe the rest?

Actually the poor reporting and failure to validate the facts with reputable sources or even to investigate the sources information, renders that article as trash IMO.

 

[teepot]

I'm sitting here shaking my head. You know if you don't like it here [USA] you are free to leave.

 

[smstachwick]

I'm sitting here shaking my head. You know if you don't like it here [USA] you are free to leave.

What prompted this?

 

[kuririn]

What prompted this?

I took it as disgust with people believing that the US engaged in an act of war based on speculation and ZERO evidence, and an article that is full of holes.
But teepot can clarify, I don't speak for him.

 

[kuririn]

What seems to be lost in the shuffle are reports that American intelligence warned the German government that there may be an attempt to blow up the pipeline. This was months before the event.
Why would the US warn Germany of an attempt to sabotage the pipeline if it was doing it themselves?
That scenario just doesn't make sense.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/28/politics/us-europe-allies-nord-stream-pipelines/index.html

 

[jderimig]

What seems to be lost in the shuffle are reports that American intelligence warned the German government that there may be an attempt to blow up the pipeline. This was months before the event.
Why would the US warn Germany of an attempt to sabotage the pipeline if it was doing it themselves?
That scenario just doesn't make sense.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/28/politics/us-europe-allies-nord-stream-pipelines/index.html

So the Germans were prepared for it when it actually happened and to get one right.

 

[smstachwick]

This article by two authors with some impressive credentials suggests that American intelligence conclusions are correct about 3 times out of 4.

It also makes clear the need for intelligence blunders to stop being used as political punching bags. Strange as it sounds, the best way to get accurate, useable intelligence is to apply reasonable standards, i.e. to allow analysts room for error, or to recognize that the answer can sometimes be unknowable or unforseeable at a specific time.

I’m paraphrasing, of course. I do recommend opening the link, it’s an easy 5-minute read.

 

[kuririn]

So the Germans were prepared for it when it actually happened and to get one right.

Like I said, it doesn't make sense.

 

[jderimig]

Like I said, it doesn't make sense.

Exactly! Which supports the US was behind it.

 

[jderimig]

Like I said, it doesn't make sense.

Also the warnings you cite were only reported by Der Spiegal using unnamed sources. Perhaps they were the same sources that Mr Hersh has. Both equally credible. You are citing speculation and possibly misinformation. Bad on you.

 

[kuririn]

Also the warnings you cite were only reported by Der Spiegal using unnamed sources. Perhaps they were the same sources that Mr Hersh has. Both equally credible. You are citing speculation and possibly misinformation. Bad on you.

Did you bother to click on the link I supplied?
That is not a rehash of the Der Spiegel article.
It cites two inside intelligence sources that corroborate the article.
No speculation or misinformation.
Hersh cited one anonymous source and as boatgeek pointed out his article is full of errors.
So bad on you.

 

[smstachwick]

Also the warnings you cite were only reported by Der Spiegal using unnamed sources. Perhaps they were the same sources that Mr Hersh has. Both equally credible. You are citing speculation and possibly misinformation. Bad on you.

Are we really going to turn this into a sourcing (or in your case, non-sourcing and non-sequitur) war?

 

[jderimig]

Did you bother to click on the link I supplied?
That is not a rehash of the Der Spiegel article.
It cites two inside intelligence sources that corroborate the article.
No speculation or misinformation.
Hersh cited one anonymous source and as boatgeek pointed out his article is full of errors.
So bad on you.

"Inside intelligence sources" LOL. So those imaginary intelligence sources are more credible than Seymour Hersch's?

There was only 1 western leader who openly spoke of disabling the Norstream pipeline. It wasn't Zelensky, nor Putin, nor Merkel, nor anyone on the continent. There's that. I am not claiming that the US was behind it but it certainly cannot be ruled out. You are others are emotionally ruling that out it seems based on nothing

 

[jderimig]

I will proffer that its highly likely US intelligence knows who did it. Why haven't unnamed intelligence sources leaked THAT? Who is the US government protecting?

 

[kuririn]

"Inside intelligence sources" LOL. So those imaginary intelligence sources are more credible than Seymour Hersch's?

There was only 1 western leader who openly spoke of disabling the Norstream pipeline. It wasn't Zelensky, nor Putin, nor Merkel, nor anyone on the continent. There's that. I am not claiming that the US was behind it but it certainly cannot be ruled out. You are others are emotionally ruling that out it seems based on nothing.

No, I am not ruling anything out.
I am stating the circumstances pointing to the most likely scenario.
The fact is, nobody knows.

I will proffer that its highly likely US intelligence knows who did it

Based on what?
Evidence or speculation?
The investigation is still ongoing.
Only if you are predisposed to the narrative that the US did it would an "incompetent" (as you put it) US intelligence service know who did it.

There was only 1 western leader who openly spoke of disabling the Norstream pipeline

He spoke of stopping Nordstream. As did the two administrations before him.
That could mean politically, diplomatically, or economically.
No mention about disabling.
Again, speculation.
Facts matter.

 

[kuririn]

So those imaginary intelligence sources are more credible than Seymour Hersch's?

Two independent sources that corroborate the same story are much more credible than one anonymous source for an article that is full of holes.
And the fact that you label them "imaginary" shows a blatant bias on your part.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I don’t think the US did it. Having the pipeline out of commission may align with some of our interests, but actually taking action to blow it up would be extremely risky for us, and I don’t see Biden authorizing something like that. It doesn’t seem consistent with his approach.

 

[teepot]

It was ET's that blew it up. The swoosh swoosh of the gas going through the pipe would keep them up at night. You see the have underwater bases/base's ? Besides who would want to live next to a dangerous pipe bomb.

 

[afadeev]

It was ET's that blew it up.

Or ... wait for it ... could it have been the Ruskies all along !?

Nord Stream: Report puts Russian navy ships near pipeline blast site:

• "Russian ships able to perform underwater operations were present near to where explosions later took place on the Nord Stream pipelines"
• "Denmark's Defence Command has confirmed a separate report that a Danish patrol boat called Nymfen took 26 photos of a Russian submarine-rescue ship in the area days before the explosions. The Information website said the SS-750 had sailed from Kaliningrad and was close to Bornholm island on 22 September 2022."
• "ships are believed to include the Russian naval research vessel Sibiryakov, the tugboat SB-123, and a third ship from the Russian naval fleet that the media outlets have not been able to identify by name. These were so-called "ghost-ships", which had their transmitters turned off. The broadcasters, however, say they were able to track their movements, using intercepted radio communications the vessels sent to Russian naval bases."

Nord Stream: Report puts Russian navy ships near pipeline blast site

A documentary reports Russian naval ships were located near the site of the Nord Stream explosions.

www.bbc.com

Sorry, Dotini, do take your time to ask Kremilin how to spin this.

 

[kuririn]

Or ... wait for it ... could it have been the Ruskies all along !?

Nord Stream: Report puts Russian navy ships near pipeline blast site:

• "Russian ships able to perform underwater operations were present near to where explosions later took place on the Nord Stream pipelines"
• "Denmark's Defence Command has confirmed a separate report that a Danish patrol boat called Nymfen took 26 photos of a Russian submarine-rescue ship in the area days before the explosions. The Information website said the SS-750 had sailed from Kaliningrad and was close to Bornholm island on 22 September 2022."
• "ships are believed to include the Russian naval research vessel Sibiryakov, the tugboat SB-123, and a third ship from the Russian naval fleet that the media outlets have not been able to identify by name. These were so-called "ghost-ships", which had their transmitters turned off. The broadcasters, however, say they were able to track their movements, using intercepted radio communications the vessels sent to Russian naval bases."

Nord Stream: Report puts Russian navy ships near pipeline blast site

A documentary reports Russian naval ships were located near the site of the Nord Stream explosions.

www.bbc.com

Sorry, Dotini, do take your time to ask Kremilin how to spin this.

Comrade, those were our fishing wessels.
Bottom fishing for European flounder.
Dah, that's it, dah.

 

[afadeev]

Comrade, those were our fishing wessels.
Bottom fishing for European flounder.
Dah, that's it, dah.

 

[boatgeek]

Comrade, those were our fishing wessels.
Bottom fishing for European flounder.
Dah, that's it, dah.

[tangent]
I had the "pleasure" of doing some work on Russian fishing boats that came over to the US for modern fishing equipment and paint in the late 90's. Horrifying boats*. It was also clear that the priorities for the boats were intelligence gathering, employing lots of people (in shipyard and in operation), and catching fish, roughly in that order. The radio room was bigger than the pilothouse, they had more antennas than a ham radioman who won the lottery, the fish holds were a third the size you'd expect.

The best example of this is the fuel lines from the service tanks to the engines. The service tanks were in the very tip of the bow (where you're not supposed to put fuel because of the risk of spills in a minor collision). The pipe ran from the service tank *through* the potable water tank, and then through the sewage tank. The potable water tank had ocmmon bulkheads with both fuel and sewage tanks, which has all of the contamination risk you'd expect. Once the fuel supply pipe got into the main engine room, they solved all of the nasty fitup problems by using pieces of hose for turns instead of pipe elbows. Still gives me the creeps.
[/tangent]

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

[tangent]
I had the "pleasure" of doing some work on Russian fishing boats that came over to the US for modern fishing equipment and paint in the late 90's. Horrifying boats*. It was also clear that the priorities for the boats were intelligence gathering, employing lots of people (in shipyard and in operation), and catching fish, roughly in that order. The radio room was bigger than the pilothouse, they had more antennas than a ham radioman who won the lottery, the fish holds were a third the size you'd expect.

The best example of this is the fuel lines from the service tanks to the engines. The service tanks were in the very tip of the bow (where you're not supposed to put fuel because of the risk of spills in a minor collision). The pipe ran from the service tank *through* the potable water tank, and then through the sewage tank. The potable water tank had ocmmon bulkheads with both fuel and sewage tanks, which has all of the contamination risk you'd expect. Once the fuel supply pipe got into the main engine room, they solved all of the nasty fitup problems by using pieces of hose for turns instead of pipe elbows. Still gives me the creeps.
[/tangent]

Yum. Potable fuel and sewage.

 

[MidOH]

What seems to be lost in the shuffle are reports that American intelligence warned the German government that there may be an attempt to blow up the pipeline. This was months before the event.
Why would the US warn Germany of an attempt to sabotage the pipeline if it was doing it themselves?
That scenario just doesn't make sense.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/28/politics/us-europe-allies-nord-stream-pipelines/index.html

Plausible deniability. And why the heck not, nobody can stop us anyways.

We're currently manufacturing attack subs with the capability to sit on underwater phone lines and tap into them. And other assorted underwater line mischief.

 

[Tyeeking]

Plausible deniability. And why the heck not, nobody can stop us anyways.

We're currently manufacturing attack subs with the capability to sit on underwater phone lines and tap into them. And other assorted underwater line mischief.

We actually did that back in the Cold War. I read a great book about how the US used submarines to tap underwater cables that the Soviet Union used to communicate with their bases on the Kamchatka Peninsula.

 

[kuririn]

We're currently manufacturing attack subs with the capability to sit on underwater phone lines and tap into them. And other assorted underwater line mischief.

Russian have had that capability since the cold war.
And the Baltic Sea is a stone's throw from the Kola Peninsula where their spy sub base is located.

How Russian Spy Submarines Can Interfere With Undersea Internet Cables

Russia’s ability to meddle with undersea cables has raised concerns on many occasions in recent years. Here is how the submarines involved operate, based on previous incidents which are only now being talked about.

www.forbes.com

 

[afadeev]

We're currently manufacturing attack subs with the capability to sit on underwater phone lines and tap into them. And other assorted underwater line mischief.

That makes no sense at all - we can and do tap lines without resorting to the subs.
Most of the under-sea lines enable the data connectivity within the developed/Western world. Underwater line mischief by us on our lines makes about ZERO sense.
Sources?

Russian have had that capability since the cold war.
And the Baltic Sea is a stone's throw from the Kola Peninsula where their spy sub base is located.

Now THIS makes more sense.
There are tons of reports of Russians actively mapping OUR undersea infrastructure: data, power, carbohydrates:

NATO warns Russia could target undersea pipelines and cables

Moscow is ‘actively mapping’ gas pipelines and internet cables, top intelligence official says.

www.politico.eu

Plausible deniability. And why the heck not, nobody can stop us anyways.

There folks out there who just plain hate America, and want to bad-mouth US at every turn. For personal, or state-sponsored reasons.
Many of those "leaks" originate in Russia and China.
Some of them get repeated by gullible types on this side of the ocean.

a

 

[rharshberger]

Russian have had that capability since the cold war.
And the Baltic Sea is a stone's throw from the Kola Peninsula where their spy sub base is located.

How Russian Spy Submarines Can Interfere With Undersea Internet Cables

Russia’s ability to meddle with undersea cables has raised concerns on many occasions in recent years. Here is how the submarines involved operate, based on previous incidents which are only now being talked about.

www.forbes.com

So have we btw, check out Operation Ivy Bells circa 1971.