Thoughts and Comments on Who Sabotaged the Russian Nord Stream 1 & 2 Pipelines

[user 30299]

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We know who did this . . . .

 

[Funkworks]

 

[cwbullet]

The blasts to Nord Stream 1 and 2 could have easily been placed to cut off all gas from those pipelines. Instead it was placed at a link that allows Russia to still pump gas to Nord Stream 2 through a different link. So I think it was Russia:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/putin-russia-increase-gas-supplies-europe-91375321

I think this was done by Russia and now they get to try come out like a ”hero” instead of a “zero”

 

[jazzviper1]

It was those rotten smurfs!!!!!!

 

[Peartree]

Can know because they have investigated, although close, is not the same thing as do know because they have investigated. But it is very far from the same thing as they cannot know because they have investigated. In my humble opinion, Sweden, Denmark and Germany do know who did it, but cannot say for reasons you may care to outline.

Ah, I think I see where we diverge. You use the phrase, "have investigated." Past tense.

Everyone else is using the term "are investigating." Present tense.

The only investigation that seems to be mostly finished is Germany which, quite honestly doesn't have much to do except check to see if anyone inside their own borders might have done it. They're not using their navy, or submersibles, or anything at all off shore.

"Have investigated" *might* imply that someone knows the answer. But maybe not.

Many of your assertions essentially say that because the local police have opened an investigation into last week's murder, they must know who the killer is and are covering it up. Nevermind the twenty year old cold cases that never found enough information to reach an arrest, let alone a conviction.

Opening an investigation is often a very long ways from convicting a suspect.

 

[Dotini]

In another odd, disturbing and unconfirmed report, it is said that undersea communication cables between Shetland Island and the UK have been cut. Supposedly there is a major oil terminal on Shetland.

 

[CalebJ]

I love well sourced news and clear citations like "it is said".

By who? When? Based on... what?

 

[kuririn]

In another odd, disturbing and unconfirmed report, it is said that undersea communication cables between Shetland Island and the UK have been cut. Supposedly there is a major oil terminal on Shetland.

A fishing boat accidentally damaged a communications cable.
Nothing to see here, move on.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...0?shareToken=fc8e15be0cc2a17a4ba0ce20968bae02

 

[bwayne64]

I'm glad to see it was an accident. Every escalation of this mess is making me spend more money. Well at least I'll have plenty of food and energy for the next hurricane, lol.

 

[Dotini]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/12/21/russia-nord-stream-explosions/
The Washington Post reveals the great mystery and problem of who is responsible for the sabotage of the Nordstream pipeline. We might ask where is Sherlock Holmes when you need him? A better question may be qui bono?

snippet:

After explosions in late September severely damaged undersea pipelines built to carry natural gas from Russia to Europe, world leaders quickly blamed Moscow for a brazen and dangerous act of sabotage. With winter approaching, it appeared the Kremlin intended to strangle the flow of energy to millions across the continent, an act of “blackmail,” some leaders said, designed to threaten countries into withdrawing their financial and military support for Ukraine.

But now, after months of investigation, numerous officials privately say that Russia may not be to blame after all for the attack on the Nord Stream pipelines.
“There is no evidence at this point that Russia was behind the sabotage,” said one European official, echoing the assessment of 23 diplomatic and intelligence officials in nine countries interviewed in recent weeks.

 

[CalebJ]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/12/21/russia-nord-stream-explosions/
The Washington Post reveals the great mystery and problem of who is responsible for the sabotage of the Nordstream pipeline. We might ask where is Sherlock Holmes when you need him? A better question may be qui bono?

There's option A (your approach) of implying an answer without evidence...



Or there's option B, which is directly referenced in the article but you chose not to quote - we just don't know:

Some went so far as to say they didn’t think Russia was responsible. Others who still consider Russia a prime suspect said positively attributing the attack — to any country — may be impossible.

 

[jderimig]

There's option A (your approach) of implying an answer without evidence...



Or there's option B, which is directly referenced in the article but you chose not to quote - we just don't know:

Or option C,
It is exactly known who is responsible but disclosing that information to the public may cause inconvenient consequences.

 

[CalebJ]

That's fair. But 'we', i.e. the people reading this thread certainly don't know.

 

[jderimig]

In the spirit of considering all possibilities and open mindedness, the latest investigative report from Pulitzer prize winner Seymour Hersh, who is -not considered a whack job. Hersch has a history of having good sources within the intelligience and military services.

https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream

 

[cls]

Seems plausible... But I'm naive...

 

[Dotini]

Judge Napolitano and others think the putative US bombing of the Nord Stream pipelines was an unconstitutional act of war not only against Russia but also against Germany.









According to Hersh, the US persons primarily responsible for this attack are Jake Sullivan, Anthony Blinken and Victoria Nuland.

 

[rharshberger]

Judge Napolitano and others think the putative US bombing of the Nord Stream pipelines was an unconstitutional act of war not only against Russia but also against Germany.









According to Hersh, the US persons primarily responsible for this attack are Jake Sullivan, Anthony Blinken and Victoria Nuland.

Surely our State Department, and military both would know better than to actually attack another countries assets when we are not yet at war with them. Its one thing to eliminate terrorist leaders (but only slightly) but to attack a major nation states assets is pretty much an act of war. I could be wrong but I don't think the USA attacked Nordstream, that would be extremely stupid (I dont give this administration high marks for international statesmanship though either, or common sense).

 

[Dotini]

Surely our State Department, and military both would know better than to actually attack another countries assets when we are not yet at war with them. Its one thing to eliminate terrorist leaders (but only slightly) but to attack a major nation states assets is pretty much an act of war. I could be wrong but I don't think the USA attacked Nordstream, that would be extremely stupid (I dont give this administration high marks for international statesmanship though either, or common sense).

A sitting US Senator, Mike Lee of Utah, has said on Twitter that he can’t immediately rule out the idea that the US blew up the Nord Stream natural gas pipelines that connect Russia and Germany. He went on to say that, if true, "we've got a huge problem".

 

[jderimig]

Why hasn't Sweden released any forensic info on the investigation yet? What information or who are they protecting by not being transparent. I am skeptical of Hersch's story but this behavior is fertilizer for similar hypotheses.

 

[jderimig]

Surely our State Department, and military both would know better than to actually attack another countries assets when we are not yet at war with them.

It happens all the time covertly.

 

[rharshberger]

It happens all the time covertly.

Maybe, but this instance it was very blatant, and as Tom Clancy character Judge Moore says " the chances of a secret being blown is the square of the number of people who know it" (or something like that).

 

[jderimig]

Maybe, but this instance it was very blatan, and as Tom Clancy character Judge Moore says " the chances of a secret being blown is the square of the number of people who know it" (or something like that).

Agree, then it would be in the administration's interest to get some of the Swedish investigation leaked to debunk this. Unless some doubt is the goal.

 

[Dotini]

Low-end source reports The Times of London reporting Germany, even Sweden, believes the US might have sabotaged the Nord Stream pipelines.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...pipeline-russia-uk-west-ukraine-war-wv99ds7tx

 

[Dotini]

Now high-end sources (egghead elites?) pivot from Hersh’s subsequent interview with Berliner Zeitung, (Google translation) and dig deeper into the consequences of the pipeline sabotage.

Hersh's statement:

Spoiler: Seymour Hersh's disturbing statement

Hersh said in his Berliner Zeitung interview:

“What I know is that there is no way this war is going to end the way we [the U.S.] wants it to end … It scares me that the president was ready for such a thing. And the people who carried out this mission believed that the president was well aware of what he was doing to the people of Germany. And in the long run, [they believe] this will not only damage his reputation as president, but also be very harmful politically. It will be a stigma for the U.S.”.

https://strategic-culture.org/news/...-elite-us-may-be-biggest-loser-in-war-russia/

 

[cwbullet]

It happens all the time covertly.

Covertly? Our country can't keep a secret for this long.

 

[user 30299]

Now high-end sources (egghead elites?) pivot from Hersh’s subsequent interview with Berliner Zeitung, (Google translation) and dig deeper into the consequences of the pipeline sabotage.

Hersh's statement:

Spoiler: Seymour Hersh's disturbing statement

Hersh said in his Berliner Zeitung interview:

“What I know is that there is no way this war is going to end the way we [the U.S.] wants it to end … It scares me that the president was ready for such a thing. And the people who carried out this mission believed that the president was well aware of what he was doing to the people of Germany. And in the long run, [they believe] this will not only damage his reputation as president, but also be very harmful politically. It will be a stigma for the U.S.”.

https://strategic-culture.org/news/...-elite-us-may-be-biggest-loser-in-war-russia/

Just a little "spoiler" on the Strategic Culture organization:

"The Strategic Culture Foundation (SCF) is a Russian think tank based in Moscow (founded in 2005) that
primarily publishes an online current affairs magazine of the same name. SCF is regarded as an arm of
Russian state interests by the United States government." (Wikipedia)

 

[cwbullet]

Just a little "spoiler" on the Strategic Culture organization:

"The Strategic Culture Foundation (SCF) is a Russian think tank based in Moscow (founded in 2005) that
primarily publishes an online current affairs magazine of the same name. SCF is regarded as an arm of
Russian state interests by the United States government." (Wikipedia)

It sure reads like Russian propaganda.

 

[jderimig]

Covertly? Our country can't keep a secret for this long.

And in this case it didn't. It might turn out.

 

[Peartree]

I would not be shocked to find that American interests had a hand in this but I would be surprised. What I mean is that it isn't impossible, but I do find it to be somewhat unlikely. Our government is know to occasionally press the boundaries of the law, but we were founded as a nation of laws and we generally see ourselves as the guys in the white hats that follow, and enforce the law. To become a deliberate, and flagrant, law breaker goes farther than I would expect our elected officials to go, and certainly our military would not unless under orders, and even then our military has a strong culture of resisting unlawful orders. Moreover, US citizens and elected officials alike would, or should, expect that, being a nation of laws, were the secret to get out, and it almost certainly would eventually (because no one can keep a secret) all of those in the chain of command, from top to bottom, would likely be prosecuted.

That said, given the proliferation of arms globally, and the enormous profits to be made, is there potential for corporate interests to do something illegal? This would go to a new level of corporate espionage, but corporations doing illegal things is so common that no one is surprised by such actions any longer. Granted, such a thing on a global stage would be hard to hide but we have entered a space where corporations have the global reach and the financial backing that was once exclusive to governments, so I wouldn't say that such a thing is impossible.

In the end, I still think that the Russians are the favorites if I were to give odds.

 

[jderimig]

I would not be shocked to find that American interests had a hand in this but I would be surprised. What I mean is that it isn't impossible, but I do find it to be somewhat unlikely. Our government is know to occasionally press the boundaries of the law, but we were founded as a nation of laws and we generally see ourselves as the guys in the white hats that follow, and enforce the law. To become a deliberate, and flagrant, law breaker goes farther than I would expect our elected officials to go, and certainly our military would not unless under orders, and even then our military has a strong culture of resisting unlawful orders. Moreover, US citizens and elected officials alike would, or should, expect that, being a nation of laws, were the secret to get out, and it almost certainly would eventually (because no one can keep a secret) all of those in the chain of command, from top to bottom, would likely be prosecuted.

That said, given the proliferation of arms globally, and the enormous profits to be made, is there potential for corporate interests to do something illegal? This would go to a new level of corporate espionage, but corporations doing illegal things is so common that no one is surprised by such actions any longer. Granted, such a thing on a global stage would be hard to hide but we have entered a space where corporations have the global reach and the financial backing that was once exclusive to governments, so I wouldn't say that such a thing is impossible.

In the end, I still think that the Russians are the favorites if I were to give odds.

What law would have be broken exactly?

Do you remember Stuxnet? Totally a US operation targeting the destruction of Iranian property on Iranian soil.