Thoughts and Comments on Current Russian,Ukrainian Conflict/War

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flamethrowers were crucial for the bunkers in Normandy on D Day, and Iwo Jima and Okinawa. they were not going to give up.
 
cls said:
flamethrowers were crucial for the bunkers in Normandy on D Day, and Iwo Jima and Okinawa. they were not going to give up.
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Well, today you could just toss a tiny nuke granade in the bunkers like they used in "Starship Troopers" to clean out a bug den.
 
The Russians call their pump action grenade launcher a flame thrower because it fires thermobaric grenades. They call one of their MLRS a flamethrower too. I was talking about a WWII type. They would clean a bunker out by just going through a slit.
 
shockie said:
I predict a tactical nuke before the end of the year.
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That will certainly spice things up. What would Ukraine do to compel Russia to use a nuke? What should we be keeping an eye out for? Retaking land close to the Russian border? Closing off the land bridge to Crimea? Depleting Russia's fighting resources to the point they can no longer defend themselves conventionally?

What do you predict Ukraine's and its allies response will be?
 
Greg Furtman said:
An interesting video about how Ukraine is destroying so many tanks and armored personal carriers.

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I really hate when they use AI voiceovers that mispronounce obvious words. It’s one thing if the voice sounds like HAL 9000, it’s quite another if they’re trying to make it sound like some guy with a podcast setup operating out of Nowhere-In-Particular, Iowa.
 
smstachwick said:
I really hate when they use AI voiceovers that mispronounce obvious words. It’s one thing if the voice sounds like HAL 9000, it’s quite another if they’re trying to make it sound like some guy with a podcast setup operating out of Nowhere-In-Particular, Iowa.
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That annoys me too. This had a lot of those. “Sabotage“ pronounced “sabot age” was especially galling.
 
Cnorm said:
That will certainly spice things up. What would Ukraine do to compel Russia to use a nuke? What should we be keeping an eye out for? Retaking land close to the Russian border? Closing off the land bridge to Crimea? Depleting Russia's fighting resources to the point they can no longer defend themselves conventionally?

What do you predict Ukraine's and its allies response will be?
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Well, if the tactical nukes that've been shipped over to Belarus were pointed at anywhere, it wouldn't surprise me if one or 5 were pointed at Moscow and on Vlad's orders.
Although that's probably a beyond the range of a typical tactical.

TP
 
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It seems like something is building. I’ve seen a few reports of small Ukrainian offensive around Bakhmut and elsewhere in Donetsk. Could be probing, could be feints, could be the real deal. Nobody knows… Shhhhhhhh…
 
Its not gone well, this just needs to be ended in a cease fire like Hungary wants; just stop the killing. Quit spending our money for Uki Teenagers to 65 year olds to get killed.
 
Art Upton said:
Its not gone well, this just needs to be ended in a cease fire like Hungary wants; just stop the killing. Quit spending our money for Uki Teenagers to 65 year olds to get killed.
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Hungary? That’s your model? American/NATO policy should look more like what Hungary wants?

Be serious.
 
We want the killing stopped, No reason to keep sending jr high kids and 60 old gramps to a meat grinder

Perhaps you do not know but all the millitary aged men are gone now


I know you were not around in Vietnam where your aged folks demanded the War to STOP NOW
 
Art Upton said:
We want the killing stopped, No reason to keep sending jr high kids and 60 old gramps to a meat grinder

Perhaps you do not know but all the millitary aged men are gone now


I know you were not around in Vietnam where your aged folks demanded the War to STOP NOW
Click to expand...
We’ve gone over this before. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt since you weren’t active in the thread then.

smstachwick said:
If you were truly anti-war you would have supported the demands for Moscow to withdraw to the pre-2014 lines of control, and asserted Ukraine’s right to expel foreign invaders. Your current stance is not anti-war, it’s pro-Russia.
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(minor edits)
 
Art Upton said:
We want the killing stopped, No reason to keep sending jr high kids and 60 old gramps to a meat grinder

Perhaps you do not know but all the millitary aged men are gone now


I know you were not around in Vietnam where your aged folks demanded the War to STOP NOW
Click to expand...
And there are those of us who actually SERVED our country and lost brothers-in-arms doing it we have paid the price, now we must do whatever it takes for Ukraine to win that they too may know freedom. Settling for less than you started with is still losing.
 
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Art Upton said:
We want the killing stopped, No reason to keep sending jr high kids and 60 old gramps to a meat grinder

Perhaps you do not know but all the millitary aged men are gone now
Click to expand...
Let’s try dealing in facts. Ukraine has a population of around 43 million. They have around 2 million people under arms (including significant numbers of women). Total military casualties are 100 to 200 thousand depending on who you believe.

In no way are all the military aged men gone.
Art Upton said:
I know you were not around in Vietnam where your aged folks demanded the War to STOP NOW
Click to expand...
We tried the stop now before defeating the Russians before in 2014. 8 years later they were at it again. If we stop now, in 8 years Putin will be back for another bite of the apple. The way to protect Ukrainians is to defeat Russia as fast as possible.
 
There’s a very big difference between Ukraine and Vietnam. You can’t compare the two.

I think the Ukrainian people are as concerned about their own kids and senior citizens as any anti-war American safe thousands of miles away from the war. They don’t want a cease fire. They want to keep fighting and win.
 
Art,
Art Upton said:
I know you were not around in Vietnam where your aged folks demanded the War to STOP NOW
Click to expand...
Vietnam war was futilily and impotently protested by Americans at home for over 15 years before Saigon fell. Protests and votes did nothing. Yeah, score none for representative democracy.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
There’s a very big difference between Ukraine and Vietnam. You can’t compare the two.
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oh sure I can. Both Ukraine and Viet Nam had 1000 year old civilizations, were invaded repeatedly by colonial powers over hundreds of years, who imperiously destroyed the existing culture and language, substituting the colonial written alphabet, destroying tribal boundaries, raiding the natural resources, enslaving the local population and condemning them to abject poverty for generations. But other than that???
 
cls said:
oh sure I can. Both Ukraine and Viet Nam had 1000 year old civilizations, were invaded repeatedly by colonial powers over hundreds of years, who imperiously destroyed the existing culture and language, substituting the colonial written alphabet, destroying tribal boundaries, raiding the natural resources, enslaving the local population and condemning them to abject poverty for generations. But other than that???
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I might have been unclear in what I was talking about. I meant you can’t compare the Ukraine War with the Vietnam War, or US involvement in Ukraine to US involvement in Vietnam, or the Vietnam era anti-war movement to anti-war sentiment regarding Ukraine. It seems like Art was trying to connect the two, and I don’t think the comparison works.
 
ThirstyBarbarian said:
I might have been unclear in what I was talking about. I meant you can’t compare the Ukraine War with the Vietnam War, or US involvement in Ukraine to US involvement in Vietnam, or the Vietnam era anti-war movement to anti-war sentiment regarding Ukraine. It seems like Art was trying to connect the two, and I don’t think the comparison works.
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Agreed.

While that particular comparison does not have a lot of merit, the American perspective on the Vietnam war definitely has some through lines with the situation in Russia. In either case, you will inevitably find guys who:
  • Wish to serve high ideals (defending democracy, opposing Nazism) but buy into their government’s lies about which ideals they’re actually serving
  • Hold lower ideals, like imperialism, and have no qualms about openly serving them
  • Harbor conflicting or hostile feelings about the operations they’re a part of, but feel a solemn duty to their country and their fellow soldiers regardless of their wrongs.
  • Only wish to take advantage of an opportunity presented to them (G.I Bill, clemency)
  • Seek only to fill a nationalist bloodlust
  • Undertake grave risks to avoid becoming a tool of conquest and state-sponsored terror.
  • Feel as if they have no practical choice but to serve.
…and countless variations thereof.

The corollary of this, then, is that there will likely be throughlines between the situations in wartime Vietnam and today’s Ukraine. I’m not going to touch that topic though, that feels more dangerous.
 
Not to pile on, but another significant issue is that Ukraine knows (from hard experience with the Russians) that stopping the fighting does not stop the killing. More Ukrainians died *after* the last war than were lost fighting it.

The Russians, on the other hand, can go home any time.
 
Art Upton said:
We want the killing stopped, No reason to keep sending jr high kids and 60 old gramps to a meat grinder

Perhaps you do not know but all the millitary aged men are gone now


I know you were not around in Vietnam where your aged folks demanded the War to STOP NOW
Click to expand...
Art, I consider you a friend, and I’m confident you despise Putin, but I disagree with you about what needs to be done in Ukraine.
Like you, I was around during Vietnam. It’s a completely different situation, Art.
Our support in Ukraine isn’t prolonging an immoral conflict while sending our own young men to their deaths. Our support is providing hope to a country whose men and women would rather fight for freedom than acquiesce to a brutal and amoral dictatorship. Ukraine is fighting for its own survival. They are in charge of their own destiny, but they need materiel support. We can either continue sending aid to them or we can abandon them to whatever plans Putin has. I suspect that if you polled the Ukrainians they would say that they would rather die fighting.
The people who should be demanding that the war stop are the citizens of Russia and they should be making that demand to Putin.
 
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