Tholian Web Spinner

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
I saw where this idea had passed through the forum some years ago with very little to offer on any construction attempts, just a few ideas passed around. After tracing and scaling the photos I Googled up, I can see why no one wants to mess with this one. It’s not your average scratch build bird.

The finished model would be 28" tall, and I've already printed off my 1/2 scale templates. I’ll work on any details after building a prototype/boilerplate should this prove to be a worthy build. I’m really not going the distance with this one unless I can get some sort of stability factor harnessed and find a place for the chute.

My idea will be 3 canted 18mm motors on the outer most areas of the design, ( 24mm have already been considered ) and a BT4 for a launch lug through the center of the model. This should be wide enough to fit a 3/16” rod without torquing it, should only one or two motors ignite.

As always, any ideas you guys have on this would be welcome. I’m blindingly jumping into this one, but I’m certain it would look really good on the launch pad.

Tholian Profiles.jpg
 

dhbarr

Amateur Professional
Joined
Jan 30, 2016
Messages
7,359
Reaction score
1,784
Brass threaded lamp rod worked extremely well for my through-lug for the summer buildoff. I will be using it again, I am certain.

Also a nice way to add nose weight exactly where you want it.
 

LW Bercini

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Messages
2,618
Reaction score
137
Location
Macon GA
Brass threaded lamp rod worked extremely well for my through-lug for the summer buildoff.
And building onto this idea...

Rear ejection. The Motor tubes feed into a core tube that surrounds the brass lug. A simple "nose block" inside the rear "cone-shape" fits the core tube. Laundry can be stored in the space between the core tube and the body walls.
 

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
And building onto this idea...

Rear ejection. The Motor tubes feed into a core tube that surrounds the brass lug. A simple "nose block" inside the rear "cone-shape" fits the core tube. Laundry can be stored in the space between the core tube and the body walls.
Rear ejection already crossed my mind, but if you look at the bottom and top view of the above pic, you'll notice the lack of space available for a "core tube". That idea does have some merit though, providing I can customize the area under the panels that cover the central joint section. I'll produce a diagram showing the only customizable (word?), space I seem to have available, shortly.
 

MCriscione

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
296
Reaction score
0
This looks awesome and makes me want to make one or something like it. I look forward to following your build.
 

neil_w

Doldrum dweller
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
12,023
Reaction score
4,903
Location
Northern NJ
Yes, laundry does seem to be the big challenge here, beyond the modeling task of sculpting something like that. With 3 canted engines it should be an extremely cool rocket.

Stability will be interesting, CG is going to want to be very far back. Can't quite tell if base drag will do the trick here, or if the three... uh... fin-like thingamajigs will do more.

Subscribed, naturally.
 

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
I feel pretty certain a great lot of nose weight is going to happen here. Regarding a central core tube, here's what I figure I have to play with. Then again, maybe a sort of "door panel" that pops out of the side, or even a whole "side section eject door", where a significant part of the mid section blows open?

Tholian Profile & Aft.jpg
 

MCriscione

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
296
Reaction score
0
I feel pretty certain a great lot of nose weight is going to happen here. Regarding a central core tube, here's what I figure I have to play with. Then again, maybe a sort of "door panel" that pops out of the side, or even a whole "side section eject door", where a significant part of the mid section blows open?
I vote for "splits into thirds for independent recovery" just to complicate matters. :wink:
 

LW Bercini

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Messages
2,618
Reaction score
137
Location
Macon GA
maybe a sort of "door panel" that pops out of the side, or even a whole "side section eject door", where a significant part of the mid section blows open?
Ooh. Been there, done that. Those are a PITA. :bang:

On a separate note, I have an idea to improve stability (thus requiring less nose weight): elongate those "plates" that are to the exterior side of the motor tubes. If you let them extend further back, you will get some CP improvement. Within aesthetic reason, of course!
 

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
I vote for "splits into thirds for independent recovery" just to complicate matters. :wink:
OH HELL YEAH! "Calling all rocket scientist and engineers!"

Ooh. Been there, done that. Those are a PITA. :bang:

On a separate note, I have an idea to improve stability (thus requiring less nose weight): elongate those "plates" that are to the exterior side of the motor tubes. If you let them extend further back, you will get some CP improvement. Within aesthetic reason, of course!
I could see that helping. I also see getting scorched by motors, which I'd like to stay as hidden as possible. FWIW, I'm not a'feared of the extra noes weight. And I'd really like to stick with as little design modification as I can.

I figure, if I build the prototype as a tool for figuring out how to construct the interior for the laundry, it should help a lot down the road for actual construction. GEEZ...where oh where is that guy that does those wonderful exploded drawings you see in auto repair books!

Just so anyone knows, this is NOT a build thread. It's a design thread. SO, the better we get this designed, the more likely I'll have a build thread to offer. I am, btw, going to post some pics of the prototype construction here and there.
 

neil_w

Doldrum dweller
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
12,023
Reaction score
4,903
Location
Northern NJ
OH HELL YEAH! "Calling all rocket scientist and engineers!"
Wait, do we get to vote on what you should do for this design? Will you be bound by the results of the vote? If so this thread just got 10x better.
 

burkefj

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,442
Reaction score
1,002
or it could peel open like a pod and have drag recovery like a saucer....

Frank
 

neil_w

Doldrum dweller
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
12,023
Reaction score
4,903
Location
Northern NJ
or it could peel open like a pod and have drag recovery like a saucer....

Frank
It does look like there are various pieces that could be turned into hinged flaps around the widest part near the base. Where are those voting buttons??? :tongue:

Seriously though, if this thing opened up like a flower at apogee and floated down it would be amazing. Helicopter would be great too.
 

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
or it could peel open like a pod and have drag recovery like a saucer....

Frank
It does look like there are various pieces that could be turned into hinged flaps around the widest part near the base. Where are those voting buttons??? :tongue:

Seriously though, if this thing opened up like a flower at apogee and floated down it would be amazing. Helicopter would be great too.
Keep in mind gentlemen, this bird is about 95% wood and there's going to be a good bit of glue and strengthening fluids involved. I agree with you though. Helicoptering down would be pretty freeking awesome descent.

Here's a crude but close representation of what a rear eject might involve. I'll have to make sure deployment gas is released near the top of the rocket and pass through the CR's ( CH's rather. Centering hexagon ) in order to make it separate. I thought a BT 60 might be enough, but that LL in the center gives me just over 1/2" of space around it with a BT 70 in there. Thoughts?

Tholian Rear Eject.jpg
 

burkefj

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,442
Reaction score
1,002
You could have a sliding ejecting motor pod in one of the angled sections that has a connecting string and pulls the chute out of the center compartment and not have to vent gasses..just a thought, but then you need to be sure that one motor lights....
 

BABAR

Builds Rockets for NASA
TRF Lifetime Supporter
TRF Supporter
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
8,868
Reaction score
3,555
Keep in mind gentlemen, this bird is about 95% wood and there's going to be a good bit of glue and strengthening fluids involved. I agree with you though. Helicoptering down would be pretty freeking awesome descent.

Here's a crude but close representation of what a rear eject might involve. I'll have to make sure deployment gas is released near the top of the rocket and pass through the CR's ( CH's rather. Centering hexagon ) in order to make it separate. I thought a BT 60 might be enough, but that LL in the center gives me just over 1/2" of space around it with a BT 70 in there. Thoughts?

View attachment 301538
It may be simpler to divide this into two parts, sort of like the top of your drawing.
The "body" of the rocket (the three forward pod thingies) could open up and either helicopter or airbrake recovery. A challenge with this is that normally you would use pull bands to open the rotors or brakes, these kind of stick out like sore thumbs (although you could kind of make them webby-like.)
The rear end with the motor mount(s) come down on with a chute. Can get a way with a much smaller chute with this approach.
Wondering if there is any way on this thing to put the three engines up front, sort of a tractor approach. Would greatly help your stability, thinking something along the lines of DaddyIsABar's Tapeworm rocket (at least I think that was his.) Kind of an extreme example.
Cool idea, in any case.
 

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
You could have a sliding ejecting motor pod in one of the angled sections that has a connecting string and pulls the chute out of the center compartment and not have to vent gasses..just a thought, but then you need to be sure that one motor lights....
My track record is about 50/50 with clusters. Makes me wonder why I'm even considering this.

It may be simpler to divide this into two parts, sort of like the top of your drawing.
When you look at the aft view, you really have to question that scenario. It's already going to be a bear to build anyway.I'm not even sure how I'd go about keeping it together for flight if I did that

helicopter or airbrake recovery.
That's already been covered.

Wondering if there is any way on this thing to put the three engines up front, sort of a tractor approach. Would greatly help your stability, thinking something along the lines of DaddyIsABar's Tapeworm rocket.

The tractor method is a really good idea for the right rocket. I'd really be boogering this up a bunch with exposed motors though. I'm trying to keep it as close as possible to the original look.

Keep up the suggestions guys. It's helping me think about all possible avenues. The one thing I don't want to do is put a central motor in. That would make it necessary to put the launch lug in undesirable places. Besides, this concept screams "central lug". There's even a place for it.
 
Last edited:

hornet driver

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 2, 2011
Messages
4,637
Reaction score
7
Might I suggest you make a full scale card stock mock up.Although it would be non flying, having the full scale version in your hand(forget about all the detail stuff) makes it a whole lot easier the visualize where you might put the recovery gear. You would also be able to get a grip on any "gotchya's". You could likely throw it together in a couple of nights. One other suggestion. Use thin wall aluminum tubing for your center mounted lug, I'm using it on my Dragonfly and retrofitting it to my 104. It weighs almost nothing! -H
 

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
Might I suggest you make a full scale card stock mock up.Although it would be non flying, having the full scale version in your hand(forget about all the detail stuff) makes it a whole lot easier the visualize where you might put the recovery gear. You would also be able to get a grip on any "gotchya's". You could likely throw it together in a couple of nights. One other suggestion. Use thin wall aluminum tubing for your center mounted lug, I'm using it on my Dragonfly and retrofitting it to my 104. It weighs almost nothing! -H
I already printed a 1/2 scale of everything and mounted it to the card stock. Tomorrow I'll piece it together and do just what you said. The "mock-up" is being used for said "gotchas" and to assist the internal construction. I'll need that much to see what's going to work and what's not. I think the smaller scale version will hold together with tape better than a full size. I'll be able to cut it and piece it back together with variable ideas. I don't want to glue anything I might want to pull apart.
 

Screaminhelo

Shade Tree Rocket Surgeon
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Messages
934
Reaction score
4
Ha, I have been playing with the same design recently! My thoughts center around the primary structure consisting of bulkheads and stringers, much like a balsa airplane. I haven't settled.on where the LL should go but I have considered putting along side of a central tube and using a bit of artistic license to work the openings into the exterior detail. This would leave a lot of room for the laundry.
 

Cabernut

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Messages
1,384
Reaction score
3
I'm a fan of the rear-eject + cord pull idea. The motors only separate the bottom half, the bottom half then pulls the cute out via a kevlar cord. That way if not all motors lit, then as long as it separates, you'll get a chute.
 

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
I haven't settled.on where the LL should go but I have considered putting along side of a central tube and using a bit of artistic license to work the openings into the exterior detail. This would leave a lot of room for the laundry.
Not sure I'm following you on this. Hard to know what you mean.

I'm a fan of the rear-eject + cord pull idea. The motors only separate the bottom half, the bottom half then pulls the cute out via a kevlar cord. That way if not all motors lit, then as long as it separates, you'll get a chute.
I think we're on the same page here.
 

sandeja1

Lifetime Supporter
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Oct 3, 2014
Messages
294
Reaction score
75
For what it is worth, here is an .ORK file that I found a while back. I think it came from TRF itself actually. This is NOT my work and I would gladly give credit to whomever created it if I could remember. I look forward to reading more of the conversation about how to do this build!
 

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
For what it is worth, here is an .ORK file that I found a while back. I think it came from TRF itself actually. This is NOT my work and I would gladly give credit to whomever created it if I could remember. I look forward to reading more of the conversation about how to do this build!
Thanks, but no thanks. This is nothing but a 3 FNC model with a central motor, to resemble the Web Spinner. I saw this in a previous posting from years ago. I don't remember who made it either, but it's definitely not what I'm aiming for.

I already have a build concept going on, and what I'm trying to achieve, is a working chute deployment and maybe some good tips/ideas on interior construction. My model will be way over the top to the likes of this ork file.

Thank you anyway.
 

Screaminhelo

Shade Tree Rocket Surgeon
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Messages
934
Reaction score
4
The artistic license would be to disguise the LL openings as part of the exterior detail of the model. The forward hole could masquerade as some sort of an opening for weapons and the rear hole disguised as a vent of some sort.
 

Gary Byrum

Overstable By Design
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
6,330
Reaction score
196
Location
Lincolnton NC
The artistic license would be to disguise the LL openings as part of the exterior detail of the model. The forward hole could masquerade as some sort of an opening for weapons and the rear hole disguised as a vent of some sort.
The aft part seems easy. The reality of this whole project whacked me up side the head this morning though. I keep drawing on my side view forgetting there's interior stuff in my way. The pic sorta splains it. On the left is an aft view of all 3 major sections, They all join in the center. The drawing on the right is my effort putting a centering hexagon in with a central core tube. As if the entire thing was empty and available.

The bottom line is, this is way tougher than I thought it was going to be.

Tholian Aft 1.jpg
 
Top