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cwbullet

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That Physician is an educated idiot. Proving the old saying "We are all idiots, only on different subjects." In this case, he obviously has zero experience with real world usage in the medical field with marijuana, only collecting data from the anti-marijuana statistics crowd. He further has ZERO Chronic pain issues or suffers from Severe depression. "We all believe things that are wrong"- a statement NO one can argue with.
The problem is he is mostly right. So would you be willing to have brain surgery from a surgeon that just gotten high? Tell me yes and you might want to look in a mirror before you start calling other an idiot.
 

hobie1dog

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The problem is he is mostly right. So would you be willing to have brain surgery from a surgeon that just gotten high? Tell me yes and you might want to look in a mirror before you start calling other an idiot.
A reply would be worthless.
 

KC3KNM

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The problem is he is mostly right. So would you be willing to have brain surgery from a surgeon that just gotten high? Tell me yes and you might want to look in a mirror before you start calling other an idiot.
I still find it odd how every time cannabis comes up you push the idea that everyone that uses it uses it 24/7.
 

hobie1dog

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At least you acknowledge the problem and it lies within. Zero pain is not a realistic expectation. Pain is part of life.
2 questions. simple Yes or No
Do you have to deal with debilitating chronic pain yourself?
Have you used marijuana for it?
 

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I still find it odd how every time cannabis comes up you push the idea that everyone that uses it uses it 24/7.
It is not about 24/7. It is about how do we tell if someone is impaired. You can’t until a mistake occurs. I am an expert on credentials nurses and physicians and occupational medicine. I do he employment related phsicals for multiple high risk professions. I have seen the adverse outcomes from driver, pilots, truck drivers, physicians, and nurses. You cannot test for it and your cannot know until they make a mistake. It is myth that cannabis is not impairing or addictive. As soon as it is fully legal, you will be part of mob scream for me to keep you safe in the hospital or on the road. It is all fun and games till someone removed the wrong leg or organ.
 

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Do you deal with debilitating chronic pain?
Have you used marijuana for it?
I am 55% disabled on my last rating and will likely be 100% when I retire in 2 years, Yes, I do have chronic pain, but I do not need to resort to mild altering substances to control it. I have found other means to control it since my ankle reconstruction surgery.
 

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Guys, I am not trying to pick a fight. I am for a limited legalization for the product. We just need to think through the ramifications, protect our youth, and find some way to test for impairment that is reliable. I will never use it. I don’t need it. I drink coffee and a rare alcohol containing beverage. My job will not allow me to do anything more. It is the responsible thing to go when you have to set the example.
 

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It is not about 24/7. It is about how do we tell if someone is impaired. You can’t until a mistake occurs. I am an expert on credentials nurses and physicians and occupational medicine. I do he employment related phsicals for multiple high risk professions. I have seen the adverse outcomes from driver, pilots, truck drivers, physicians, and nurses. You cannot test for it and your cannot know until they make a mistake. It is myth that cannabis is not impairing or addictive. As soon as it is fully legal, you will be part of mob scream for me to keep you safe in the hospital or on the road. It is all fun and games till someone removed the wrong leg or organ.
Ok, first off... who said cannabis wasn't imparing? I'm not sure I'd be using it if it weren't. 😅

I'm not sure about you, but from the number of times I've had to show up on a Saturday in my blues back in day because someone drove drunk (despite being able to test for it) makes me think we should be having a conversation about getting rid of alcohol while we're at it. However, I've gotten harassed at multiple shop functions in the AF about not drinking, both from NCOs and officers. Pretty cool culture around alcohol in the military that we gloss over. I've experienced zero of that regarding cannabis when I got out (though, I don't hang around "stoners" so that that for what it's worth), and everyone I've worked with that has used has been responsible about it. I'm sure you'll claim that folks can use alcohol responsibly (despite the idiots that don't), so what's the difference here? I've seen the adverse outcomes from alcohol use, yet you seem to post about what you're drinking fairly often with no qualms.

Do you breathalyze every surgeon before they operate? Do you test for opioids? How about sleep deprivation?

I can promise you that no one will be screaming for you to save us from cannabis.


Also, seems like the NIH doesn't share your views that weed is the devil. Before you claim I'm advocating that we drive stoned... I'm not. It's just a good example that it's not quite as impairing as the "legal" substitute (or at least on par), but anyone who doesn't have a personal vendetta against it knows this.
 

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Do you breathalyze every surgeon before they operate? Do you test for opioids? How about sleep deprivation?

I can promise you that no one will be screaming for you to save us from cannabis.


Also, seems like the NIH doesn't share your views that weed is the devil. Before you claim I'm advocating that we drive stoned... I'm not. It's just a good example that it's not quite as impairing as the "legal" substitute (or at least on par), but anyone who doesn't have a personal vendetta against it knows this.
I don’t have to test every surgeon. We randomly breathalyze. We have a zero percent acceptance. You test positive, your career is likely over at our facility.

I never said “weed is evil”. I said we need to have a measured response and not just legalize and live with the outcome. NIH? Now that is is about as unbiased as the WHO or CDC. You have to read the funding and review the writer. There is probably a political agenda behind it.
 

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I don’t have to test every surgeon. We randomly breathalyze. We have a zero percent acceptance. You test positive, your career is likely over at our facility.

I never said “weed is evil”. I said we need to have a measured response and not just legalize and live with the outcome. NIH? Now that is is about as unbiased as the WHO or CDC. You have to read the funding and review the writer. There is probably a political agenda behind it.
So, if they aren't picked up by the random tests, I could have a drunk surgeon? What's stopping folks from operating high on opioids? Do you ensure they've gotten enough sleep? The point I'm getting at is that you continually bring up how everyone's getting stoned and removing legs and flying airplanes, but you've provided zero data. I certainly think people would be less likely to get away with smoking weed in a career where it isn't allowed (assuming consistent drug testing) as you'll pop positive for a considerable amount of time after using. Until instant tests become viable, just ban that career field from using cannabis, much like we already do. Not sure why that's unreasonable.

Nearly as unbiased as yourself, apparently.
 

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What's stopping folks from operating high on opioids? Do you ensure they've gotten enough sleep?
I can't speak for surgeons, if we report to work with inadequate rest or any signs of impairment, we can be sent home.
 

KC3KNM

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I can't speak for surgeons, if we report to work with inadequate rest or any signs of impairment, we can be sent home.
Exactly, which is why I find Chuck's arguments to be more straw men than anything else. If you're impaired to the degree he's claiming it'll be obvious, coupled with drug testing you'll pop positive for cannabis long after you use. Not much different than being sleep deprived, on opioiods, benzos, etc. If someone is going to go against their patients/customers/passengers interests to use a drug, keeping cannabis illegal isn't going to change anything. Just the same old garbage that's been repeated since the 60's.

I'm just sick of "So would you be willing to have brain surgery from a surgeon that just gotten high?" thrown into every thread even tangential to cannabis. I'm not sure where this group of surgeons that toke up before surgery are, but I'd like to meet them.
 

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So, if they aren't picked up by the random tests, I could have a drunk surgeon? What's stopping folks from operating high on opioids? Do you ensure they've gotten enough sleep? The point I'm getting at is that you continually bring up how everyone's getting stoned and removing legs and flying airplanes, but you've provided zero data. I certainly think people would be less likely to get away with smoking weed in a career where it isn't allowed (assuming consistent drug testing) as you'll pop positive for a considerable amount of time after using. Until instant tests become viable, just ban that career field from using cannabis, much like we already do. Not sure why that's unreasonable.

Nearly as unbiased as yourself, apparently.
I have supervised physicians for nearly 22 years and have been an executive for half of it. Our physicians and surgeons are randomly selected for drug tested for alcohol or drugs. It is a readiness issue to be able to respond to war. If you are not prescribed or taking more than the recommended dose of opiates, you can be reported to the state licensing board. Being clean is a condition of employment for both civilians and the military.

We have zero persistent problems. Our testing is very sensitive for drugs and the breathalizer is what it is. The military has the most advanced testing in the world. I have had staff to report to work on pot, Ambien, and alcohol in the past. None work for our organization long. I had non-clinicians test positive for banned substances this year. They were separated from the military or civilian service expeditiously. We have more tolerance today. They are given a chance to get help with more frequent testing. Rarely is the treatment of substance use successful. Most will relapse.

I am sorry that I cannot give you the data. Any data I have is not releasable.
 

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Exactly, which is why I find Chuck's arguments to be more straw men than anything else. If you're impaired to the degree he's claiming it'll be obvious, coupled with drug testing you'll pop positive for cannabis long after you use. Not much different than being sleep deprived, on opioiods, benzos, etc. If someone is going to go against their patients/customers/passengers interests to use a drug, keeping cannabis illegal isn't going to change anything. Just the same old garbage that's been repeated since the 60's.

I'm just sick of "So would you be willing to have brain surgery from a surgeon that just gotten high?" thrown into every thread even tangential to cannabis. I'm not sure where this group of surgeons that toke up before surgery are, but I'd like to meet them.
The problem is that there may be no more testing if it is not properly vetted in the legalization process. We have to have a proper implementation plan and some trusted professions have to have limits. The point of the brain surgeon straw man comparison. It is every bit real. If you can't test, it will happen.

There are reasons why many organizations will make a driver, pilot, or doctor urinate in a bottle after a fatal mistake. If it is truly 100% legalized for all, what will be the basis for testing? I am all for decriminalization and limited legalization, but I do not want my staff impaired.
 

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It is not about 24/7. It is about how do we tell if someone is impaired. You can’t until a mistake occurs. I am an expert on credentials nurses and physicians and occupational medicine. I do he employment related phsicals for multiple high risk professions. I have seen the adverse outcomes from driver, pilots, truck drivers, physicians, and nurses. You cannot test for it and your cannot know until they make a mistake. It is myth that cannabis is not impairing or addictive. As soon as it is fully legal, you will be part of mob scream for me to keep you safe in the hospital or on the road. It is all fun and games till someone removed the wrong leg or organ.
You make yourself sound important yet you have typo's everywhere.!!! Take another hit bro....
 

KC3KNM

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I have supervised physicians for nearly 22 years and have been an executive for half of it. Our physicians and surgeons are randomly selected for drug tested for alcohol or drugs. It is a readiness issue to be able to respond to war. If you are not prescribed or taking more than the recommended dose of opiates, you can be reported to the state licensing board. Being clean is a condition of employment for both civilians and the military.

We have zero persistent problems. Our testing is very sensitive for drugs and the breathalizer is what it is. The military has the most advanced testing in the world. I have had staff to report to work on pot, Ambien, and alcohol in the past. None work for our organization long. I had non-clinicians test positive for banned substances this year. They were separated from the military or civilian service expeditiously. We have more tolerance today. They are given a chance to get help with more frequent testing. Rarely is the treatment of substance use successful. Most will relapse.

I am sorry that I cannot give you the data. Any data I have is not releasable.
It is not about 24/7. It is about how do we tell if someone is impaired. You can’t until a mistake occurs. I am an expert on credentials nurses and physicians and occupational medicine. I do he employment related phsicals for multiple high risk professions. I have seen the adverse outcomes from driver, pilots, truck drivers, physicians, and nurses. You cannot test for it and your cannot know until they make a mistake. It is myth that cannabis is not impairing or addictive. As soon as it is fully legal, you will be part of mob scream for me to keep you safe in the hospital or on the road. It is all fun and games till someone removed the wrong leg or organ.
These comments seem contradictory, no? What instant tests do you use for drugs other than alcohol?

I understand that testing for impairment is an issue, but you seem to gloss over the same issues for other substances that you harp on for cannabis.

The problem is that there may be no more testing if it is not properly vetted in the legalization process. We have to have a proper implementation plan and some trusted professions have to have limits. The point of the brain surgeon straw man comparison. It is every bit real. If you can't test, it will happen.

There are reasons why many organizations will make a driver, pilot, or doctor urinate in a bottle after a fatal mistake. If it is truly 100% legalized for all, what will be the basis for testing? I am all for decriminalization and limited legalization, but I do not want my staff impaired.
Again, not sure why banning it for use in certain career fields until a viable test is created isn't even on your radar.

What's stopping people from driving drunk? As far as I know, no one is caught driving drunk until something happens. If you can't pass a field sobriety test, why shouldn't you be tested for weed and dealt with based on the results?
 

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Do you want me smokin a joint coming at you at 70 mph with an 80,000 lb truck ??
 

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You make yourself sound important yet you have typo's everywhere.!!! Take another hit bro....
Make yourself feel important by insulting. If you can't make a legitimate discussion, you make a personal attack. We all know where you come from.
 

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These comments seem contradictory, no? What instant tests do you use for drugs other than alcohol?

I understand that testing for impairment is an issue, but you seem to gloss over the same issues for other substances that you harp on for cannabis.


Again, not sure why banning it for use in certain career fields until a viable test is created isn't even on your radar.

What's stopping people from driving drunk? As far as I know, no one is caught driving drunk until something happens. If you can't pass a field sobriety test, why shouldn't you be tested for weed and dealt with based on the results?
You pee in a cup. We test for nearly every drug that can be tested for including some

The problem is that testing for THC does not indicate impairment. You have to bar it for trusted jobs or else you have to live with potential impairment. It is not a notional risk. There are plenty of journal articles to document the uptick in states with legalization.

I develop my ethics on impairment in medicine in Germany. I saw surgeons go to lunch and have beer. I saw physicians see patients with too little sleep. I now lecture on the topic of impairment to our staff twice a year. When my COVID gig is done, I will probably take a CIV gig as a Chief Medical Officer reviewing Risk Management cases and setting the standard for young clinicians.
 

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Blah blah blah. Dude, take a step back. You are wrong as your paragraphs just sink to the bottom.
What makes you a subject matter expert? High times magazine?
 

cwbullet

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No more than if you were sucking on a bottle of beer or popping sleeping pills.
That I will agree with but you are making an equivalency argument. If two drivers kill two families, one had THC and the other has a beer, neither would excusable nor less of a crime.
 
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KC3KNM

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You pee in a cup. We test for nearly every drug that can be tested for including some

The problem is that testing for THC does not indicate impairment. You have to bar it for trusted jobs or else you have to live with potential impairment. It is not a notional risk. There are plenty of journal articles to document the uptick in states with legalization.

I develop my ethics on impairment in medicine in Germany. I saw surgeons go to lunch and have beer. I saw physicians see patients with too little sleep. I now lecture on the topic of impairment to our staff twice a year. When my COVID gig is done, I will probably take a CIV gig as a Chief Medical Officer reviewing Risk Management cases and setting the standard for young clinicians.
Every drug including some?

Yes, that’s what I proposed in the post you replied to. Until more accurate testing becomes available, I don’t see anyone arguing to allow pilots to toke up. Not sure if you read posts you reply to, or already have what you want to say locked and loaded, but it does get tiring.

We’re all very proud of you Chuck, but repeatedly posting your credentials and poor arguments while ignoring anything that goes against your beliefs isn’t conducive to a proper discussion. It’s very clear you have a bias against cannabis for some reason that you don’t share with other substances. That’s fine, we all have our fair share of bias. What is concerning is when someone in a position such as yourself makes these contradictory arguments, ignores personal bias, provides no data to back anything up and then flaunts said position as though it’s some kind of trump card. Not great qualities for a leader.

What makes you a subject matter expert? High times magazine?
“Make yourself feel important by insulting.”


That I will agree with but you are making an equivalency argument. If two drivers fill two families, neither is excusable.
The point was the original argument is a very poor one. We could replace that joint with any impairing substance illicit or not and the point stands.
 

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You cannot test for it and your cannot know until they make a mistake.
You are delusional to think you cannot detect in advance but can tell AFTER an accident that it was causal.
 

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When I was working at OU Industrial Engineering back in the mid 90's, one of the hot topics was "readiness to perform". The idea being that you can design physical and cognitave tests to measure quantitatively whether an individual was capable of performing a job. We had two experiments go up on shuttle flights, part of the International Microgravity Laboratory 1 & 2. Those were computer-based tasks. We had others that were physical. We also studied drug interactions. We tested caffine (regular and decaff coffee) and benedril. The effects from both were measurable, and at a surprisingly low dosage.
 
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