The politics of incentives

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Tyeeking

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So, if you grew up to less than ideal parents, had less than ideal schooling at one of our many underfunded school districts and were plopped out into the real world with no safeguards or family support and you're planning on exercising your free will to avoid wage slave jobs... how do you support yourself with no marketable skills? Go back in time and get born somewhere better? Move to a place with better jobs (hard to do when you're broke)? Some people don't really have a choice and the market takes full advantage.
You learn a skill. Having less than ideal parents, going to an underfunded school, being plopped out into the real world does not stop someone from learning how to weld, how to drive a commercial truck, how to be a pipe fitter, how to be an HVAC technician, etc . . . all of which are jobs that pay 6-figures and are seeking people.
 
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Tyeeking

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Reader's Digest Condensed Version: "Slavery is wrong, but those people probably deserve it." If that's the way you want to point your moral compass, go right ahead, man.
Actually the Readers Digest version is exactly what I said not you putting words in my mouth. Did you even catch the part where I said that forcing prisoners to work is wrong?

As I said, I don’t have a lot of compassion for those that prey on the weak in society. They are not victims, they are predators.

If you see it differently by all means point your own moral compass in a different direction.
 

KC3KNM

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You learn a skill. Having less than ideal parents, going to an underfunded school, being plopped out into the real world does not stop someone from learning how to weld, how to drive a commercial truck, how to be a pipe fitter, how do be an HVAC technician, etc . . . all of which are jobs that pay 6-figures and are seeking people.
Yeah, it's absolutely that easy for everyone.

Hell, if none of those work out they could just learn to code...
Actually the Readers Digest version is exactly what I said not you putting words in my mouth.

As I said, I don’t have a lot of compassion for those that prey on the weak in society. They are not victims, they are predators.

If you see it differently by all means point your moral compass in a different direction.
Exactly, don't prey on the weak... take the high road and ignore them completely while benefiting off the systems that take advantage of them! Compassion!
 

boatgeek

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Actually the Readers Digest version is exactly what I said not you putting words in my mouth. Did you even catch the part where I said that forcing prisoners to work is wrong?

As I said, I don’t have a lot of compassion for those that prey on the weak in society. They are not victims, they are predators.

If you see it differently by all means point your own moral compass in a different direction.
I was just under the impression that if something was wrong, there was no situation that would make it right. Ah, well, I suppose I'm just too soft-hearted. Javert would be proud of you.

I can see that I'm not going to change your mind, so I'll stop replying on this section of the thread. No sense in wasting both of our time.
 

Tyeeking

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Ah, well, I suppose I'm just too soft-hearted. Javert would be proud of you.
Sorry if I don’t give a crap what a fictional character in literature may or may not think of me. I’ll leave that to you soft-hearted types.
 

KC3KNM

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Who said it was easy? Why be so patronizing towards those that don’t get the perfect start in life? You don’t believe that can do challenging things?
You certainly made it appear that all you have to do to succeed in life is to learn to be a plumber or drive trucks... my mistake for assuming that such a sure, simple answer to a complex problem wasn't just a bullshit response. We all just need to work harder and we'll all make it!

It says a lot that you view acknowledging that others start off in a bad spot and can have a harder go at life as patronizing.
 

Tyeeking

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It says a lot that you view acknowledging that others start off in a bad spot and can have a harder go at life as patronizing.
Your intimating that it is too hard for folks that get a rough start in life to learn a skill that leads to a well paying job is what I find patronizing.
 

dr wogz

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You learn a skill. Having less than ideal parents, going to an underfunded school, being plopped out into the real world does not stop someone from learning how to weld, how to drive a commercial truck, how to be a pipe fitter, how to be an HVAC technician, etc . . . all of which are jobs that pay 6-figures and are seeking people.
and that is assuming you have the $$ and the time (and support) to invest in a 1 or 3 years program to get said skill. It also assumes you've made the plans for the next 2-5 years, and that you've sent in your application in time for the following semester [which in some cases can be 6 months to a year before actually "going"]..

some need a job now, to support their "escape", and the time / money / support just never comes.. 1 year become 2, and that soon becomes 5... yet the same job, the same paycheck (despite the COLA raise) and watching those with 'papers' come & go above you.. "If only I had the time to go [back to] school.. "
 

KC3KNM

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Your intimating that it is too hard for folks that get a rough start in life to learn a skill that leads to a well paying job is what I find patronizing.
Not quite, I'm asserting that everyone on minimum wage collecting food stamps and working at McD's or Walmart isn't lazy and there's a lot more to breaking out of poverty than just joining a trade.

What's patronizing is the idea that anyone can just go do something and make six figures despite their circumstances. I'll admit there's comfort in the idea that people are less successful than me because they didn't work as hard. It took a lot of growing and introspection to realize that's a joke and success and stability are due to many factors we can't control. I hope you can get there one day and realize that this is much more complex than you seem to be willing to admit. There's a lot of folks who can't just "free will" their way out of poverty.
 

dr wogz

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Banks.
Banks force you to use their services.. for the most part that is. And if you don't use a bank, you have no credit history, and can't move ahead..

does that count?!
 

boatgeek

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Banks.
Banks force you to use their services.. for the most part that is. And if you don't use a bank, you have no credit history, and can't move ahead..

does that count?!
Don't get me started on credit checks. We never had credit cards and paid off our mortgage a few years ago, so we have no debt. Which means that our credit scores have started declining. Because obviously if you've paid off all of your debts, you can't be trusted to pay off another one. :rolleyes: When we went to rent a car a couple of months ago, they wanted a quick credit check to rent using a debit card. That failed, so they wouldn't rent it to me unless I laid down the company credit card to cover the rental and then switch payment back to my debit card.
 

Tyeeking

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and that is assuming you have the $$ and the time (and support) to invest in a 1 or 3 years program to get said skill. It also assumes you've made the plans for the next 2-5 years, and that you've sent in your application in time for the following semester [which in some cases can be 6 months to a year before actually "going"]..

some need a job now, to support their "escape", and the time / money / support just never comes.. 1 year become 2, and that soon becomes 5... yet the same job, the same paycheck (despite the COLA raise) and watching those with 'papers' come & go above you.. "If only I had the time to go [back to] school.. "
Nobody said it was easy. Neither is stagnating in a low skill job.

Want to make more . . . then make yourself more valuable. It involves sacrifices and trade offs to attain something of value.
 

Tyeeking

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Banks.
Banks force you to use their services.. for the most part that is. And if you don't use a bank, you have no credit history, and can't move ahead..

does that count?!
Weird. I never had a bank force me to use their services. Society has certainly made it easier to navigate the complexities of life by having a good banking relationship and fortunately competition is such that I have lots of banks competing for my business but I’ve never had one force me to use their services. Perhaps your life experience has been different.
 
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smstachwick

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Not quite, I'm asserting that everyone on minimum wage collecting food stamps and working at McD's or Walmart isn't lazy and there's a lot more to breaking out of poverty than just joining a trade.

What's patronizing is the idea that anyone can just go do something and make six figures despite their circumstances. I'll admit there's comfort in the idea that people are less successful than me because they didn't work as hard. It took a lot of growing and introspection to realize that's a joke and success and stability are due to many factors we can't control. I hope you can get there one day and realize that this is much more complex than you seem to be willing to admit. There's a lot of folks who can't just "free will" their way out of poverty.
This is the problem with the combined emphasis on individual achievement and American exceptionalism. They produce the notion that the ones who beat statistical odds did it with just a few more hours of work, a better attitude, better ideas, etc., and they’re representative of true Americans, and the ones who didn’t beat the odds were lazy, unpersonable, and/or stupid, and thus aren’t true Americans or are otherwise unworthy of support.

There isn’t any concern for how entire populations are effectively stripped powerless, and efforts to break that powerlessness instead of merely escape from it are met with scorn.
 

dr wogz

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Weird. I never had a bank force me to use their services. Society has certainly made it easier to navigate the complexities of life by having a good banking relationship and fortunately competition is such that I have lots of banks competing for my business but I’ve never had one force me to use their services. Perhaps your life experience has been different.
well, maybe not "forced", but society expects you to have one..

a check or a paycheck - needs a bank
credit history - need a bank
a loan - need a bank


try "growing" without one..
 

Tyeeking

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well, maybe not "forced", but society expects you to have one..
To twist a phrase “a difference with quite a bit of distinction”.

Society expects a lot of things. That’s not altogether bad.
 

KC3KNM

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This is the problem with the combined emphasis on individual achievement and American exceptionalism. They produce the notion that the ones who beat statistical odds did it with just a few more hours of work, a better attitude, better ideas, etc., and they’re representative of true Americans, and the ones who didn’t beat the odds were lazy, unpersonable, and/or stupid, and thus aren’t true Americans or are otherwise unworthy of support.

There isn’t any concern for how entire populations are effectively stripped powerless, and efforts to break that powerlessness instead of merely escape from it are met with scorn.
Yeah, but who has time for concern for other people when there are unrealized gains in the market?

I felt we were getting past the American exceptionalism crap, but it’s getting whipped back up again. Nationalism dressed as patriotism seems to be really hot right now, very in style with certain groups. We’re going down a dark path for sure.

But hey, at least it’ll be warmer and a little more exciting for a bit.
 

Titan II

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Yeah, but who has time for concern for other people when there are unrealized gains in the market?

I felt we were getting past the American exceptionalism crap, but it’s getting whipped back up again. Nationalism dressed as patriotism seems to be really hot right now, very in style with certain groups. We’re going down a dark path for sure.
Although I completely disagree with everything you say, I will not go there as this is clearly political. Why can't you, and others of your ilk, knock it off.
 

smstachwick

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Although I completely disagree with everything you say, I will not go there as this is clearly political. Why can't you, and others of your ilk, knock it off.
I seriously doubt that your position is literally against the forum rules to articulate, I think you just lack either the words or the logical grounds to do so effectively. Neither is a particularly good look.

But given the demonstrable harm that is actively being inflicted on vulnerable populations by market policies, might I ask that you, and others of your ilk, knock it off?
 

ksaves2

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Nobody said it was easy. Neither is stagnating in a low skill job.

Want to make more . . . then make yourself more valuable. It involves sacrifices and trade offs to attain something of value.
Agreed. People blow off high school stay home and before you know it, they're not qualified to do anything.
They're stuck in dead end jobs by a poor choice. So that means the rest of us are to support them?

It all boils down to get an education or get into an apprenticeship program. With an apprenticeship program, one is still expected to be able to read, write and do basic math.

Back in my high school days in the 70's there were a pile of pre-apprenticeship courses one could take to prepare them for good blue collar job programs if they didn't like pure academics. Still had to master basic read'in, writ'in and arithmetic. Those who blow off a basic education are ham-stringing themselves. Who's fault is that?

Walmart is not the best place to work. Sometimes they cut employees hours on purpose so they don't have to pay them full time benefits. Only works when there are alot of people seeking work there. Kurt
 

KC3KNM

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Back in my high school days in the 70's there were a pile of pre-apprenticeship courses one could take to prepare them for good blue collar job programs if they didn't like pure academics. Still had to master basic read'in, writ'in and arithmetic. Those who blow off a basic education are ham-stringing themselves. Who's fault is that?
My HS also had great votech and elective options. That said, far from every school has those programs and their quality varies greatly. Whose fault is that?
 

CalebJ

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My HS also had great votech and elective options. That said, far from every school has those programs and their quality varies greatly. Whose fault is that?
Very few of the ones that had them twenty years or more ago have them at all now.
 
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