# The Moon

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#### AlexM

##### Well-Known Member
Today in physics, we watched a documentary about the moon conspiracy theory. Personally, I think the whole hoax idea is a load of crap, but some of the evidence is kind of compelling. Things such as:
The flag was waving in a vacuum.
No stars in the background.
No blast crater on the moon.

However, some things kind of dispell that whole theory. Things like:
The impossibility of keeping the enormous amount of people quiet for 40 years.
They say the astronauts went into space, but orbited for 8 days

#### BlueNinja

##### Well-Known Member
Hmm. The flag may have been waving due to maybe just being placed... my guess. Other than that, the three things you listed are kind of interesting.... I'm sticking with the "It really happened" view however.

#### thomasrau

##### Well-Known Member
I love those theories, too bad the flag was held up by a wire frame, no mysterious "lunar wind" had anything to do with it. The brightness of the surface dictated using exposure settings on the camera that kept the stars from appearing. There was a small "blast crater" under the lander, and when the Eagle (apollo 11) took off the ascent stage "blew over" the flag which was planted too close to the lander.

#### Mike

##### Well-Known Member
A bit of Googling soon throws up pretty rational explanations.

#### JStarStar

##### Well-Known Member
The flag had wires inserted in it to hold it up vertically and give the illusion of waving. They didn't want to put up a flag on the moon and just have it hanging there limp.

The only time the flags are actually seen "waving" are in the film clips taken out of the LM window at ascent liftoff from the moon, as thomasrau notes.

As the ascent stage engine fires up and starts expelling a large amount of exhaust gas the flag can be seen flapping as the ascent stage lifts off and the flag moves out of the window frame. It was the exhaust gas rushing out from around the base of the LM that caused the gusts which made the flag flap around.

The stars are not visible because of the extreme brightness of the sun reflecting off the lunar surface makes it impossible for the human eye, or many instruments, to adjust and isolate stars in the black sky.

The conspiracy theories are a complete load of crap and any physics teacher who would even discuss them credibly, shouldn't be teaching physics. The discussion of these theories should consist of a horse laugh, and five words: "These theories are all nonsense."

And by far, most important, as everyone has noted, how impossible it would be to get thousands and thousands of people all to cooperate on a coverup.

#### illini

##### Well-Known Member
Go see the bad astronomer for good explanations for these and several related items.

#### rstaff3

##### Oddroc-eteer
I must admit I enjoy a good conspiracy theory, but seldom adhere to them

Besides all the scientific explanations, the arguement that you couldn't have kept it quiet is just as good. You'd have had to pull the wool over the NASA employees and contractors too. And there wasn't CGI.

#### Chuck Rudy

##### Well-Known Member
No stars are visible because, for lack of a better explanation, the astronauts were always on the 'day' side of the moon. Much like we can't see stars durning an earth day, one can not see stars during a lunar day. Plain and simple.

#### hokkyokusei

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by AlexM
Today in physics, we watched a documentary about the moon conspiracy theory. Personally, I think the whole hoax idea is a load of crap, but some of the evidence is kind of compelling. Things such as:
The flag was waving in a vacuum.
No stars in the background.
No blast crater on the moon.
None of this "evidence" is compelling.
Presumably your physics teacher was testing you on your knowledge of physics by seeing if you fell for any of it?

#### rabidsheeep

##### Well-Known Member
there were also two more things i found interesting when we watched something similar

some crazy dude took photos of area 51, which some people think was the film spot for all of this, and it seems that the exact footprint of neil armstrongs boot is in the facility.

i think its a fake picture or some stupid mistake.

another was alittle more realistic...

it seemed the crossheirs in a picture were actually behind some object, giving the effect that they were edited on afterwards

somone wanna explain that?

#### JStarStar

##### Well-Known Member
In some ways this is kind of amusing, but in other ways, it's not.

Here's a particularly good quote from the Bad Astronomy site, by author Phil Plait:

(Conspiracy theorist Bill) Kaysing says that the Apollo 1 fire that killed Roger Chaffee, Ed White and Gus Grissom was no accident. Grissom was ready to talk to the press about the Moon hoax, so NASA killed him. Kaysing says NASA also killed other people who were about to blow the whistle as well.

This is so disgusting I have a hard time writing a coherent reply. Kaysing has no grasp of basic physics, photography or even common sense, but he accuses NASA of killing people to shut them up. That is a particularly loathsome accusation.

#### DynaSoar

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by JStarStar
In some ways this is kind of amusing, but in other ways, it's not.

Here's a particularly good quote from the Bad Astronomy site, by author Phil Plait:

The "moon hoax" didn't happen until 2.5 years after he died. There's only one way he could have known. Obviously they killed Grissom to keep the time machine secret quiet.

#### solrules

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by DynaSoar
Obviously they killed Grissom to keep the time machine secret quiet.
And the water-powered car!

#### DynaSoar

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by AlexM

The flag was waving in a vacuum.
No stars in the background.
No blast crater on the moon.

The flag "waving" illusion only happens if you speed up the film. It was swinging like a pendulum because there was no air to stop it. If you speed the film up that much, Neil and Buzz and bouncing around like Energizer bunnies on crack, faster than would be possible in Earth gravity. You can't have it both ways.

The light level setting on the camera to prevent burning (which Apollo 12 still overloaded by accidently pointing it at the sun) didn't allow the stars to show. An easily replicable effect.

The "blast crater" was seveal meters wide and 2 cm deep. Not much of a crater to see.

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
The term for what you guys are doing is called, "Preaching to the Choir".

#### phaar

##### Well-Known Member
Rabidsheep, that is the exact same one we watched (I am in Alex's physics class). There were some good points, I admit, but most were finding fault in something there could not be fault in...if that made sense. For example, they said that the cameras the astronauts had were very hard to aim and take good pictures. After explaining this, they proceeded to say that "all" the pictures taken were perfect and how could this be. Well, why would NASA release images of the ground or the sky? It would be a waste of time to release such images. Most of the points given could be refuted. All that they said could have easily been made up.

#### dragonshiprider

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by JStarStar
In some ways this is kind of amusing, but in other ways, it's not.

Here's a particularly good quote from the Bad Astronomy site, by author Phil Plait:
Yeah I love arguing with the "flat earthers" whenever Yahoo does a space story.One of my faves was the lady who jumped on one night and insisted that the whole moon shot was a big lie because Neil would not swear on the bible to it.She just couldn't grasp why someone like him would get so ticked over some obsessive freak jumpin' out of the woodwork and shoving a bible in his face and calling him a liar and a con.JFYI for those who don't know the story Neil punched the guys lights out.
Also,one of my favorite charity cases is this guy from somewhere in Europe who can't figure out how a spaceship goes on such a long trip with such little gas.No lie the guy believes that spaceships run on Chevy 350s or something.Honest!He also can't understand basic things like compasses and compressed oxygen and such.That's o.k. though because at least he's not stupid enough to believe all of that bull about spaceships.Besides according to him the Van Allen belt will fry anything we ever send up.He actually said that one day and I backed him into a corner with cell phone satellites and the reflective dish on the moon that astronomers use to take laser measurements of the moons distance.Personally I think the guy needs to spend a few months at a Holiday Inn Express!

:kill:

#### jflis

##### Well-Known Member
wohoo! man, this thread got deep in a hurry! LOL

The flag was waving in a vacuum.
No stars in the background.
No blast crater on the moon.

These "facts" hold the least water of them all. There is not one "fact" that holds water, for that matter. *but* they do tell a compelling story and that's why people keep listening. I just hope none of these people ever run for office

The flag wasn't waving in a vacuum. It was vibrating due to the astronaut putting it up. As soon as he let go, simple oscillation damppened the motion.

No stars were seen because in the full sun the shutter speed on the cameras were so fast that they didn't register. (try it out. Go out side with your automatic camera on a BRIGHT sunny day and take a picture of a SNOW WHITE house. Now, take note of the shutter speed. Now, *set* your camera to that same shutter speed and go out that night and take a picture of the night sky. Guess what? )

No blast crater on the moon: A "blast crater" or any crater for that matter, is made when something *hits* something else. When you launch a rocket on the earth the ***VAST*** bulk of what is *hitting* the ground underneath is the air that has been pushed by the exhaust, not the exhaust itself. The only lunar soil that would be disturbed is that soil that was acutally HIT by physical particles *in* the exhaust stream. (if you note the lift off shots of the lunar modula ascent stage, you can see their ain't much left after burn )

ANd you know the worse part? The folks preaching these "facts" to you *know* all of this. but their story is more fun to tell so they keep telling it

ahhh, that was fun

#### Gus

##### Well-Known Member
I don't find the moon hoax theory funny, I find it offensive.

Truth matters.

#### hokkyokusei

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Gus
I don't find the moon hoax theory funny, I find it offensive.

Truth matters.
Exactly.

And whenever I see people lying about stuff I _know_ about on TV, I think:

"Why should I believe them when they talk about stuff I _don't_ know about?"

#### illini

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by hokkyokusei
Exactly.

And whenever I see people lying about stuff I _know_ about on TV, I think:

"Why should I believe them when they talk about stuff I _don't_ know about?"
Well said. That's the bottom line right there. Credibility is what it is all about. It is hard to earn and easy to lose. The moon hoaxers have none. Those involved in Apollo...tons.

#### Chilly

##### Well-Known Member
Last year Buzz Aldrin was confronted in public by one of the more infamous moon-hoaxers. Having had enough of his blather, Buzz did what any stand-up guy with truth on his side would do...he knocked the guy on his @.

Sometimes words fail in the face of complete stupidity.

#### thomasrau

##### Well-Known Member
Those that believe the moon missions were a hoax should just all join the flat earth society and leave the rest of us alone.
Anyone that has witnessed the might of a Saturn V launch would never, ever, doubt its ability to deliver men to the moon. I was lucky enough to witness Apollo 17 from the viewing area at the cape, Dad knew how much the space program meant to me and took me to see the last of the Apollo moon missions. The best present a ten year old ever got.

#### Chilly

##### Well-Known Member
Amen brother. I was a couple years younger and didn't see any moon missions in person, but saw the last Saturn V (Skylab) and one of the Saturn IB mission launches, I think it was Skylab 2.

The mother of a friend of mine back in high school was one of those moon-hoax believers. No one could talk any sense into her. That's the nature of conspiracy-minded people.

#### DynaSoar

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by thomasrau
Those that believe the moon missions were a hoax should just all join the flat earth society and leave the rest of us alone.
bah. Amateurs. The Flat Earthers are frequently also Hollow Earthers. No focus. The REAL conspiracy minded belong to the Stop Continental Drift Society. I mean, what's it going to do to the property values in San Francisco when Anchorage is a suburb?

#### illini

##### Well-Known Member
*groan*

...and its not just that some people are conspiracy minded. It is that they are just plain unable to think objectively, to reason with the evidence and draw conclusions. These people seem to think they can live in their own little universe, denying the inconvenient facts that intrude on their world view, and justify it under the banner of relative truth. Moon hoaxers are one thing, but you find people who are unable to reason everywhere. Sometimes it seems relatively innocuous, but lack of reason applied to one thing indicates a propensity to be illogical about many other things as well. How can a society function when nobody can think and tell the difference between fact and fiction, right and wrong??

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
How can a society function when nobody can think and tell the difference between fact and fiction, right and wrong??
So...do these people know where the WMD's are hidden?

Oh...sorry...did I say that out loud?

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
So...do these people know where the WMD's are hidden?
WMD's ?????????

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
WMD's = Weapons of Mass Destruction.