the LAUNCH CANADA challenge

Discussion in 'Canadian Rocketry' started by High Desert Rocketry, Jan 28, 2019.

Help Support The Rocketry Forum by donating:

  1. Jan 28, 2019 #1

    High Desert Rocketry

    High Desert Rocketry

    High Desert Rocketry

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    52
    Tyler P and ManiakMechanik like this.
  2. Jan 28, 2019 #2

    ManiakMechanik

    ManiakMechanik

    ManiakMechanik

    Forum Supporter TRF Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    49
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Surrey BC
    If any BC rocketeers are thinking of doing this and need help, I'm in.
     
    Tyler P and High Desert Rocketry like this.
  3. Jan 28, 2019 #3

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    Fly caster

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,757
    Likes Received:
    313
    Location:
    Land of Poutine!
    Any Montrealers who need help, I'll also toss my hat into the ring!
     
    High Desert Rocketry and Tyler P like this.
  4. Jan 28, 2019 #4

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    Fly caster

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,757
    Likes Received:
    313
    Location:
    Land of Poutine!
    Cool, but I'm, initially a little skeptical..

    I read all thru it, and they point out the obvious.. Some aspects they touch on need CAR's involvement!
     
  5. Jan 28, 2019 #5

    Dipstick

    Dipstick

    Dipstick

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2009
    Messages:
    398
    Likes Received:
    51
    Launch sites! The kicker for all of us. I imagine a CF base will get it, as they can offer lodging/food as well. Sure would like to see it happen at our site in Alberta though :)
     
    High Desert Rocketry likes this.
  6. Jan 28, 2019 #6

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    Fly caster

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,757
    Likes Received:
    313
    Location:
    Land of Poutine!
    CFB Trenton!!

    that will gather: Kingston area, Ottawa area, Montreal Area, and Toronto!
     
  7. Jan 28, 2019 #7

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    Fly caster

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,757
    Likes Received:
    313
    Location:
    Land of Poutine!
    hey Bruce, Steve,

    Has CAR ever thought to come up with a 'press kit' for new fields? Something a potential club can use to help their chances when they approach a farmer or farm corporation for field use? its one thing to 'say' CAR does this, does that, has this, has that.. But to have a shiny brochure or web page for said reasons might go a little further..

    Does Tripoli have something? NAR?!
     
    ManiakMechanik likes this.
  8. Jan 28, 2019 #8

    ManiakMechanik

    ManiakMechanik

    ManiakMechanik

    Forum Supporter TRF Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    49
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Surrey BC
    Yes, having something like that would make it a bit easier to approach someone and start a conversation.
     
  9. Jan 29, 2019 #9

    hutch

    hutch

    hutch

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    24
    Seems that this is targeted at Amateur Rocketry/University teams.

    Although the first competition (fly to 10,000 feet) is attainable with high power off the shelf designs and motors.

    Trouble is, I am unaware of ANY field that is currently used in BC where one could reasonably fly to 10,000 feet. (Which brings me to another question - why "feet"? We've been using metric for the past 50 years or so.)
     
  10. Jan 29, 2019 #10

    High Desert Rocketry

    High Desert Rocketry

    High Desert Rocketry

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    52
    I think it would be cool if every providence built something like we did with the FAR site in California and then host the 'Launch Canada' event on a rotating basis...like LDRS in the US.

    https://friendsofamateurrocketry.org/

    We started the FAR site about 15 years ago...some cheap worthless desert land, a shipping container for storage, a small I-bean in a concrete pad for static testing, a launch pad and a wood 'bunker' seen at 5:20 in this video. From days when no one was testing or launching to days now when we sometimes have hundreds. It just takes motivated people to make it happen.
     
  11. Jan 29, 2019 #11

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    Fly caster

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,757
    Likes Received:
    313
    Location:
    Land of Poutine!
    Biggest issue?
    CAR, the governing body is only about 200 members strong (active members, they have more, but only about 200 or so "active")
    CAR & rocketry in Canada is a little more stringent on rules. Not prohibitive, but a little harder (a test for L1, a test for L2)
    CAR does a few large events, but for some, travel is the killer..
    There are only about a dozen or so clubs across the country, most of which do medium power. Yes, there are a few HPR, but they all seem to have a limit of some sort.
    Canada is 1/10 the population of the US..
    Canada is also larger than the US, so the population density is less, much less (the population of Canada is about the same as California.. ~36 million)
    Most of Canada is below the freezing mark 4 months of the year.. Some below 0°F!

    We just don't have the numbers..
     
  12. Jan 29, 2019 #12

    hutch

    hutch

    hutch

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    24
    Interesting, but the first step would be obtaining access to a High power launch site, and then getting a 10,000 foot (or higher) waiver.

    Alternatively, a BC group could travel to one of the organized 2019 high power launches in Alberta:

    Hanna launch, April 6, waiver to 15,000 AGL
    Rock Lake near Lethbridge, June 28- 30 (40,000 AGL)
    Sullivan Lake near Calgary Sept 13-15 (40,000 AGL)

    If this must be students, then travel, accommodation, etc. would need to be organized.

    In order to be Level 1 certified in Canada for HPR, you must be 18 years of age or older. This would seem to exclude this contest from any students in K-12 school, and leave it open only to University teams. I wonder if the organizers of this competition have considered this?
     
  13. Jan 29, 2019 #13

    hutch

    hutch

    hutch

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    24
    It's really too bad that the organizers of this are not doing anything to encourage rocketry at the school level. The Team America Rocketry Challenge (TARC) in the US has been very successful. I've been told though that Canada is not involved, primarily because we cannot get any sponsorship at the federal level from anyone at all... there has been no interest from industry or government. Without this sponsorship, we cannot participate, and Canadian schools are left out.
     
  14. Jan 29, 2019 #14

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    Fly caster

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,757
    Likes Received:
    313
    Location:
    Land of Poutine!
    The way a few in the US do it when that the team is all <18, and have no rocketry certs or experience. Their mentor (us in this case), will have the experience, and the ability to obtain the motor. It would also be our name on the flight card, unless one of the students wishes to peruse their L1 or L2 and has it at the time of the flight.. Or that special ararngements have been made. Also, in some events, the motor is at the table, waiting for the registered team. It's understood that they aren't allowed, that this is a special situation / event, or that special provisions have been made so that they may have access to an M or L motor.. We've had a few US teams come to CRMRC.org for their 'shake-down' flight. Arrangements have been made, we (the LCO & RSO) look over their rocket & watch them do what they need to . We then push the button for them. usually a good flight, sometimes bad..


    And, I agree, I don't think the contest organizers really understand the hurdles / lack of launch facilities a lot of us have in regards to rocketry in Canada.. Clagary definitely has an advantage over Thunder Bay.. It's fine for CFB Cold lake to host the event, but how is McGill or UNB supposed to get there? The $30K will cover their airfare & stay.. barely! And for one flight based on simulations. And, assuming they win! Just about every uni team in the US (for the NASA challenge) have a field capable of a mile high within a day's drive of their university. Canada, not so much.. (UBC to Lethbridge is a good 8-12hr drive!)
     
  15. Jan 29, 2019 #15

    hutch

    hutch

    hutch

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    24
    I"m going to check in with my local (University of Victoria) student club to see if they have any awareness/interest in this. They have typically flown at Spaceport America site in New Mexico. In 2016, UVic took 3rd place out of 40 teams in the "basic" category. and 1st in the SDL payload category. So they are already heavily involved in activities in the United States - and do not have access to any local flying field.
     
  16. Jan 30, 2019 #16

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    There is one test composed of a Transport Canada -Requirements to Launch HPR in Canada knowledge and general rocketry knowledge. Must be done to complete L1 along with a successful cert flight.

    Canada and the US are about the same size landmass wise, but Canada has waaay less population as you say. I see references which say differently (landmass) but none of them quote actual landmass. If you look at a flat map, yes one would say we are bigger but all maps are distorted (Mercator projection) to make flat and lines straight. 9.9 Million sq Km vs 9.8 million sq Km seems to be the consensus.

    Also to launch at CAR/ACF launches flyers must follow the certification process, BC teams are doing this and launching at CAR/ACF launches along with a big number of the Quebec flyers from their universities. Currently to launch under the transport Canada guidelines folks must use commercial made motors which is a hurdle to the universities. There is a review of the current TC guidelines underway so things may change slightly but there will still be a need to test and document thrust profiles of motors prior to a launch. TC current guidelines also recognize Hybrids (N02) but not other liquids so that will also need to be hammered out.

    There is a Junior certification program (My son went through this and was one of the youngest at the time) http://canadianrocketry.org/cert_level_1-3.php (look for Junior certifications). There are restrictions and a responsible adult required.

    Hope this helps
    David
     
  17. Jan 30, 2019 #17

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    Nope no "press kits", something to look at. The Calgary Club has done this by way of an information package for prospective landowners but first and foremost is the clubs relationship to the landowner not CAR/ACF. The "sell" is about the people relationship between the landowner and those who will be organizing the launch and maintaining the relationship.

    David
     
  18. Jan 30, 2019 #18

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    North America aircraft uses feet and flight levels (based on feet/barometric). Maybe the influence of the US as we do have to coordinate cross boarder/near boarder flights.

    We submit authorizations in feet and receive them back in feet/flight levels (past 18,000 feet or so). So this keeps with standards NA standards at least.

    David
     
  19. Jan 30, 2019 #19

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    Fly caster

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,757
    Likes Received:
    313
    Location:
    Land of Poutine!
    Thanks David, I kinda forget about Alaska!! And I was implying 'the lower 48' as that's where the bulk of the population is..

    the L1 TC test I think throws a lot of people off. The need for 100%. And, it seems to be applied half hazardly.. (The questions on how it's applied, and to who, and for what launches..)

    I think many will say that having something from "the governing body" and something that explains what exactly the governing body covers can go a long way than asking potentials to 'go look at a web site', and then search for the pertinent info that applies to them. Most won't. But a page, in point form, can, and will.. This just further shows that there is an organization behind the hobby, not just "a bunch of boys wanting to use some land to blow stuff up".. it just gives more credibility to the cause.

    Speak to Bruce, I just had a bit of a conversation with him on this very subject.

    and this thread may also help..
    https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/growing-the-hobby.150634/
     
  20. Jan 30, 2019 #20

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    I am pretty sure this is not the case. All CAR/ACF tests written come through me and there are none that do not have the TC component with it. If you are talking about recognizing certs from other organizations I have not processed any during my term so no issues there either.

    I may be dense, what do you mean "what does the governing body cover"

    David
     
  21. Jan 30, 2019 #21

    Nytrunner

    Nytrunner

    Nytrunner

    Master of Rivets

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    4,779
    Likes Received:
    921
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    I think what HDR (op) is suggesting is the establishment of a site/organization like FAR where certifications are not required for projects like this.
     
  22. Jan 30, 2019 #22

    hutch

    hutch

    hutch

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ah, that makes sense. I really appreciate the knowledge from folks like you here.
     
  23. Jan 30, 2019 #23

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    In Canada, under Transport Canada guidelines certifications are required

    So one could ask what those requirements are and who can authorize the meeting of those qualifications. Currently CAR/ACF, TRA and NAR are recognized due to the certification reciprocity agreement. Others might be able to add there own qualifications or as some universities have done bypass Transport Canada and use military bases who take ownership and responsibility of operations in their "space" for these projects.

    I can't comment on that much except it has been done in the past (no certifications for a project that CAR/ACF would require a certification process to be followed). TC and the military have some sort of agreement about the use of the space for military operations. Is this skirting the process? Guess when an incident happens we will find out.

    Not saying that changes can't happen but from what I have seen TC is about ensuring safety for the public (observers, participants and flyers). Our conversations pretty much hinge on that aspect when addressing changes.
     
    Steve Shannon likes this.
  24. Jan 31, 2019 #24

    Tyler P

    Tyler P

    Tyler P

    Nom-nom-nom... TRF Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2018
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I read that to mean the ability to show what the governing body of rocketry in Canada has oversight of. So we can show the landowners that we're not just a bunch of yokels out to blow stuff up and that we actually have an oversight system with rules and the like.
     
  25. Jan 31, 2019 #25

    hutch

    hutch

    hutch

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2010
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    24
    I guess if these guys are looking at launch fields at CFB's (Canadian Forces Base), they figure they can get around any Transport Canada rules. Finding a Canadian launch site is the whole key to this. Maybe that's what it's really all about.
     
  26. Jan 31, 2019 #26

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    CAR/ACF has three committees providing oversight for various areas
    • Range Safety (CRSO Chair)
    • Design Review Committee (DRC) ( Technical Safety Reviews (TSR), Advanced High Power (AHP) and Level 4 certifications (L4CC)
    • Motor Certification Committee (MCC)

    Launch safety oversight via the RSO (Range Safety Officer) program. Basically the RSO makes sure we are following our rules and that of TC, report on occurrences that fall short, then fix or avoid those situations. Also the L1-L3 certification programs fall under this umbrella. A lot a details missed but sums things up.

    Design Review Committee provides oversight for three areas the TSR's for flight above 35,000 feet, just a third eye to where we do not have a pile of experience, L4CC provides oversight for flyers conducting their first flight in the M-O impulse ranges (all have certed on M's no N's or O's) and AHP is for flights beyond the 40960Ns level which has not happened yet in Canada but this will happen someday and we need a process to validate/oversight these flights.

    Motor Test Committee provides independent verification of motor performance and safety. Basically we have a pretty good idea a particular motor will perform to lift that big ass rocket off the pad and be pretty sure what altitude it will reach. We are bound by altitude limitations on all our fields so knowing helps ensure we stay under what we are authorized for.

    David
     
    Steve Shannon likes this.
  27. Jan 31, 2019 #27

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Crayok

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2017
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Calgary, Canada
    Yes, there are not a lot of launch options for Universities who are designing motors, particularly when if they start using liquids beyond NO2. While LC doesn't say that, the picture of the F1 engine from the Saturn seems to indicate more complex liquid systems might be on the table. As noted most locations have very low ceilings and will not be much use except maybe as a training ground for students, which would be great of course.

    Yes we need more areas to launch such as the Spaceport at Canso in Nova Scotia . May be ideal for some and those that have $$ for rental. Or a big desert, salt flats or something. I guess the prairies also fits in there.

    David
     
  28. Feb 1, 2019 #28

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    dr wogz

    Fly caster

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2009
    Messages:
    4,757
    Likes Received:
    313
    Location:
    Land of Poutine!
    ..
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  29. Feb 10, 2019 #29

    midpower_madness

    midpower_madness

    midpower_madness

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    21
    This is accurate. Claim the launch as a "munitions test". LOL!
    Actually, in Kamloops area there could be several that would fit the bill. We've flown up to 6000 feet here on the Island on minimum diameter G powered rockets. No issues.
     
  30. Feb 10, 2019 #30

    midpower_madness

    midpower_madness

    midpower_madness

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2016
    Messages:
    135
    Likes Received:
    21
    It's not a numbers issue - its an issue with our values and drive to make real change. We overly litigious to the point of stupid... and it scares off new blood.
    What I see is an issue with how the hobby is introduced to new flyers. The CAR/ACF is a virtual unknown to anyone in the regular hobby field because they don't do any advertising to youth groups. Where is the spirit of learning and modelling of innovation for our youth? It doesn't exist in Canada. UVIc, UBC and other Universities have to head to the US to fly because - as they put it, flying in Canada is overly complex. Not so in the US. In the USA you have the NAR/TRA advertising the heck out of events and getting the ball rolling. Meanwhile, educators in Canada are left on our own to find locations and blaze trails and when we get a CAR/ACF membership it doesn't do anything for us unless we want a high power certificate. So why pay the money when I can go South of the boarder and get advice from an active community that communicates with the world.
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page