The Future of this hobby.....

[HHaase]

Kids don't do catalogs. Dids do YouTube, TikTok, Reddit, Snapchat, etc. When my daughter saw DudePerfect! do a rocketry episode, she couldn't wait to come running and show me. I leave my Sport Rocketry magazines all over the house and I doubt she knows there are pages on the inside. Does the NAR have a different magazine for junior members?

I've been kicking around the idea of doing a rocketry themed YouTube channel focusing on reviews, getting started, all that stuff. The problem is that I'm a bit over-committed to my over-sized list of hobbies.

 

[samb]

Yeah, Just from my "never ran a hobby business" perspective I thought the resources put into printed catalogs by the new owners might have been better used elsewhere. But again I don't have any information on the return on that investment.

 

[Bill S]

I'm strongly considering buying a few beginners kits and a stack of catalogs to give away at the club launches I attend. Anyone have a suggestion as to which kits would be best? I was considering these current kits:

Alpha III
Dragonite
Phantom Blue (Almost ready to fly)
Generic
Heatseeker

I see that the 2020 Estes catalogs are out of stock, so I can't buy them (though I can scrounge up a couple extras from orders this year to give out).

 

[NateB]

Maybe try reaching out to other similar hobbies, do joint events and work on outreach together? There is a lot of room for shared interest between RC clubs, aviation clubs, and pyro clubs. We have had kids who were part of an aviation day camp visit our hangar who were talking non stop about launching the rockets they built that morning in a day or two when everything was dry.

I also know from casual discussion that Young Eagles groups are also trying to reach a younger crowd. Our local RC field has the same concerns. Maybe by working together the hobbies can be shared by more people.

 

[jqavins]

The average age in this hobby has gone way up...

But are we certain of why, arithmetically? Is it because there are fewer young people in the hobby, or because there are more old ones? Or some of each? My impression is that there are a lot more old and middle aged rocketeers than there used to be, which certainly would push the average age up, all else being equal. So how much has the youth involvement really dropped? The magnitude and type of the problem has to be known before solutions can be discussed.

Assuming that declining youth involvement is really the major problem it's made out to be, I have yet to hear anyone mention what I suspect could be part of it: peer pressure. Model rockets are seen as nerdy, and not in the cool way.

How many of our adult flyers have even flown a model rocket (other than to fix something up for one of their kids) in the past couple of years?

Ever? Most of them. Recently? At least half of them. At any given launch I'm attending? About half of them.

How many adult flyers have you met who react dismissively towards model rockets, or that they're only toys for kids?

Somewhere between zero and zilch.

As a final comment, remember that the forecasting of doom has been a leading "hobby" throughout the world by millennia, and these forecasts are very rarely accurate.

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

This is not a criticism, all clubs could do a better job at outreach. If you go to a launch, you can clearly see we are at risk of becoming a dying hobby.

My last launch club had a whole scout club there with egg lofters. They launched at least 15 times, loved every one of it. Last year, before the COVID pandemic, the summer launches had Scouts, 4H clubs, and the Civil Air Patrol kids. They outnumbered the adults by at least 2-to-1. So at least here there's plenty of kids getting involved.

My wife is a history teacher, but works for a STEM magnet school. They asked her if she would help orchestrate some launches, and she is happy to do so - she's started building rockets with me, and is learning all the launch equipment, NAR rules, and so forth. Unfortunately they don't have a field large enough to do any launches. And right now no one wants to bus kids anywhere else due to the virus. Maybe next year...

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

Kids don't do catalogs. Dids do YouTube, TikTok, Reddit, Snapchat, etc.

This. Put this in huge font and bold it.

KIDS DON'T CARE ABOUT CATALOGUES.

If you want to get more kids interested, you have to get them involved in the places they go. That can be the clubs and organizations they're involved in, or for many kids, the media they consume.

 

[cwbullet]

My last launch club had a whole scout club there with egg lofters. They launched at least 15 times, loved every one of it. Last year, before the COVID pandemic, the summer launches had Scouts, 4H clubs, and the Civil Air Patrol kids. They outnumbered the adults by at least 2-to-1. So at least here there's plenty of kids getting involved.

My wife is a history teacher, but works for a STEM magnet school. They asked her if she would help orchestrate some launches, and she is happy to do so - she's started building rockets with me, and is learning all the launch equipment, NAR rules, and so forth. Unfortunately they don't have a field large enough to do any launches. And right now no one wants to bus kids anywhere else due to the virus. Maybe next year...

Good to hear. I hope we can get our locals involved more. Scouts are not as popular as they once were. I am hoping for a resurgence.

 

[samb]

... in a hobby of 12k participants ...

Ok, wait a minute. Where are you getting this number from ? I'm getting a sense from several of your comments that you have some insider information related to the hobby business, right ?

 

[dr wogz]

Estes catalogs up here (Canada) are sold, not free. But the local hobby shop has one tied to a string so you can look thru it.. To get a catalog in the mail, you need to make the effort to: search for the source (estes.com), put your info into the boxes, and press send. A few weeks later you get one, but their interests have then probably shifted.

On the same token, you can look at other hobbies. As I mentioned, look at R/C flying. When I started, kits were the only real way to get into the hobby (buy a kit, build it, finish it, then go fly it). ARFs came along, then park flyers & foamies. The new big thing now is quad copters & FPV racing. Neat, but not my thing. As for R/C kits, very very very few out there now. (Great planes has pretty much dried up, SIG is probably one of the only manuf. still producing kits in any volume..)

And, apart from Micheals & Hobby Lobby, how many hobby shops are left? Ones that deal with "hobbies" as we call them: R/C planes, cars, plastic models, train sets, rockets, ship building etc.. How many are now considered 'educational toy shops' and carry very few of these items?

And, remember, this is a very US oriented hobby. Canada has 3 (!!!) decent hobby shops (online mainly) that deal extensively with rocketry. We have NO kit manufs either (except a little motor maker .. Cessaroni or something. ) We did have Sunward & Canaroc at one point.. Estes won't sip to Canada, or anywhere outside the great 48.. Others will, but the cost to ship can be limiting!


And, I think one of the biggest issues is motors. getting motors.. $10 a launch for a D12?! (the D12 2-pack is about $19CAD up here.. and only about 3 places on the island of Montreal sell motors)

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

Estes catalogs up here (Canada) are sold, not free.

I had no idea the difference was so great for Canada. That's a real shame, considering how much open space you guys have!

 

[jqavins]

Sure, there ought to be more.

Oh wait, there are more.

 

[Bill S]

Estes catalogs up here (Canada) are sold, not free. But the local hobby shop has one tied to a string so you can look thru it.. To get a catalog in the mail, you need to make the effort to: search for the source (estes.com), put your info into the boxes, and press send.

I noted in my post that Estes is OUT OF STOCK on 2020 catalogs, so one CANNOT buy them now. I've got some feelers out to a couple vendors who might be able to help me out. Thanks anyways.

 

[dr wogz]

I had no idea the difference was so great for Canada. That's a real shame, considering how much open space you guys have!

LOL!!! yeah, it's all rocks, trees, and lakes though! At least east of the great lakes (western tip of Lake Superior actually) Great for fishing, sucky for rocketry. Canada does have a dessert (a few actually) and we do actually have a rattlesnake in one dessert!!!) But they are minuscule, nothing like AZ / NV / NM!!

Canada is larger than the US, but only about 1/10 the US population, so there is a lot of "in between" major centers. My next biggest city is Ottawa, barely a million people; A 2 hr drive. Then Toronto, Canada's largest city is a 6hr drive for me. then Winnipeg is a 2 day drive from Montreal! Seeing a launch by the guys out west (Lethbridge, Calgary, etc..): 3 days minimum driving.. Might as well drive to KS, TN, or MD or..

Canada also has CAR, the Canadian equivalent to NAR & TRA, that adds a further bit of contention / confusion. (And is mainly based in the west: Alberta) We only have about a dozen launch sites across the entire country.

(I fly out of VT it;s closer, easier, and just less of a hassle than flying in Canada. But, with the border closures, I haven't burnt BP or AP since December. Yet, I've paid my club & NAR dues for the year)

 

[PXR5]

There are plenty of launch sites around for small motors.
School yard sports fields are everywhere.

My Astronomy Club does outreach at school yards, and before it gets dark we launch some small rockets the kids love it
The key here is showing Dad that it's easy safe fun

 

[Fattbank64]

IMO kids' interest in rocketry will increase when astronauts step on (fill in the blank). There are plenty of solutions that have been mentioned in this thread however boots on another planetary body would be a big boost.

 

[GlenP]

Some years ago, when my kid was that age, we used our final Cub Scout Pack meeting for the year for our rocket launch and recruiting event for the next year. We give a free rocket for a kid who turned in a new registration to join the pack next year, and would advertise this in the neighborhood school bulletin. Give them something free, but get them invested to participate. Our annual popcorn sales raised enough funds to buy rockets for the whole Pack, and pinewood derby and other activities, and have some extras to give to siblings and the new recruits.

 

[dhbarr]

My kids love reading my catalogs and sport rocketry. The classes I teach love playing with OpenRocket. Every kid I've ever seen at a launch had a huge grin and was shouting and pointing.

Of course my sample group is all biased, but I don't see any problems on the kid-willingness front.

 

[Fattbank64]

I leave my Sport Rocketry magazines all over the house and I doubt she knows there are pages on the inside.

LOL

 

[RoyAtl]

when I said we could do it over a 3 or 4 days, to build, talk, etc.. (roughly 4-8 hours total) she said, no. She was thinking a 1-day, 2 hour max session, and launch the same day.. So, it was quickly dropped.
Pitty.

We used to regularly do 1-day, *3* hour sessions with a local science museum (and they continue to do them once or twice a year on their own), so it is possible. You have to limit the rocket to something like an Alpha III or Astra III. Something that can be built quickly, but illustrates model rocket construction. Hour 1, build and decorate, hour 2, any glue or paint dries, talk about all types of rocketry, hour 3, launch! (with the museum, we interleaved sessions so group 2 builds while group 1 talks, then group 1 flies, while group 3 builds and group 2 talks, It worked well.

At our launches currently, if a scout or youth group wants to do it, we have them come out two hours before the club launch starts, they're told to have their rockets built (usually a session the night before), their rockets get a once over (repairs and corrections are made) and they have an opportunity for two flights each, then they can stick around once the club launch starts.

I did get approached by one teacher to do a school event, but she didn't know the firs thing, nor know how to approach the subject, the local school board pushed the idea, but gave little to no support for said adventure.

As for land, I used to fly R/C. my go-to club was shut down by the provincial government, because we were "using agricultural land for other purposes" (it really was the way to strong arm us to give up the field for near future developments.)

yea, there was a local RC club with a beautiful field and clubhouse, nice paved runway and everything, that had to give up its field due to pressure from county government that was being pressured by a local developer. Sucks.

 

[Steven]

I have given a school teacher an Estes Saturn V and an Apogee Saturn 1b kit to show and teach his kids after school. He's already flown the Saturn V at least twice in the school yard and I haven't seen him since February. He would visit the Starbucks just two blocks away from the school I have been building my Saturn V from. I have also given away several starter sets to kids who would show up with their parents at Starbucks. If the worst were to happen and model rocketry becomes a dinosaur, I've other hobbies I'm always in and out of. Drag racing, drumming, RC aircraft, cooking, control line models, free flight models and general model building. Always have back up plans. It's not the end of the world.

 

[_kestrel_]

I've read through this thread and applaud the clubs and individuals that are doing outreach. Thank you!

This past year, I was asked by a local 7th grade teacher if there were any activities that I could think of that tied in with Newton's Laws. Of course I do, rockets. One catch, we live in a district with pretty stark differences in family income. I didn't want this to become another opportunity to highlight that gap by having the kids order what they wanted (or could afford) out of a catalog.

My family got busy, I designed a simple rocket that has a 3d-printed nose cone and fin can that simmed great with an A8-3. Our printer at home ran for over 350 hours to get the parts done. We ordered piles of BT-20 tubes and built a jig to cut them to length. Motor stops and A-motors showed up. A gallon of Titebond should be enough, right? We found rubber bands that made OK shock cords. We designed tools to aid in assembly. All up, the rocket "kits" that we built cost about $0.95, another $1.80 for the motor. In one day, we built over 120 rockets in the classroom and 2 days later every kid in 7th grade got to launch a rocket they built. I didn't wait for somebody else to do outreach. I didn't complain that others and corporations weren't doing enough. I rolled up my sleeves and did the work, along with my wife and my kids. I'm not saying this to get praised for doing it - didn't ask for any then and won't when we do it next year with the 7th and 8th graders (going to miss this year because of Covid). If you want to see change, be the agent of change. Own it.

My goal with launching rockets wasn't necessarily to move the hobby forward. It was to maybe encourage somebody who didn't think they could do "science." I don't know if it changed anything, but I do know that i overheard 7th grade girls and boys talking about rockets in the hallway, If I can help be that spark for one kid, it will all be worth it. If not, they still got to build and launch a rocket. All of that for less than my Level 2 kit and motor cost...

 

[jqavins]

My goal with launching rockets wasn't necessarily to move the hobby forward. It was to maybe encourage somebody who didn't think they could do "science."

And yet you may have done both.

I don't know if it changed anything, but I do know that i overheard 7th grade girls and boys talking about rockets in the hallway, If I can help be that spark for one kid, it will all be worth it.

People often say things like that, "If I can help just one..." And I have no doubt it's sincere. Well you may well have helped sparked more than one, whether for "doing science", or for rocketry, or both. And you're just going to have to libe with that.

 

[JPalmer621]

One thing I have seen is when the parent gets the kids old enough they become a BAR and teach the children about rockets. Then when the kids become parents it starts over again but grandad is still launching. I like all the new technology that our hobby has started using from flight computers, chute releases, GPS, 3D printing and more. As far a site location I see it is a problem but maybe look at other choices. I was able to talk with the state fair office and we use there parking lot (a grassy field) It is good for low and mid power rockets and we are in the middle of the town. Keep your options open when you look for new sites.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

I’ve musta thrown away about 6 catalogs this year when they include one in each order.

It usually takes two weeks for my Estes order to arrive. The one from late last week only took 4 days. Weird...

 

[Mustang67]

From my personal experience, a club with a dedicated team focused on outreach can make a huge difference. However you need a good team of 4 and consistency to the program. Think of it as a pop warner football team. Need some good staff that are willing and able to donate their time, get the locals interested and start to drive the program forward. Take your foot off the gas pedal for too long and you will loose a fair amount of the progress/momentum you have made. This is why I believe you need a good four club members to drive an outreach program. With four or more you can share the work load and less likely to get so quickly burned out. You can reach out to local businesses for donations for the program, might get some free local airtime to advertise a local build and fly work shop. Build one weekend, fly the next weekend kind of thing.

Then there is the whole retention piece and conversation... Just stay the course, try to be consistent... Every April or May you have your local build party.. ect.. etc.

 

[jadebox]

I am rather optimistic for the following reasons:

Estes's new owners; the popularity of the Team America Rocketry Challenge, NASA Student Launch Initiative, and other competitions; excitement among kids about space exploration; seeing lots of young people, boys and girls in about equal numbers, at our local launches; watching as membership in NAR hit record levels; seeing the hobby progress through innovation; and noting that it has been a couple of years since the last doom and gloom thread on TRF when they used to appear more regularly.

 

[msjohnso]

Now, the initial market for rockets seems to be parents buying rocket sets for their 4-6 year olds. These kids are developmentally capable only of seeing these products as toys, and when they lose interest they will compartmentalize their experience as "playing with toys." Note: I realize there is a tiny sub-set of these kids whose parents are themselves involved with rockets as a hobby and those kids will see things differently.

A little later, we introduce kids through Scouting, but this is as a checkmark activity to a badge. not as a hobby.

Thanks to TARC, there is now another intro to the hobby at around 14, but it is introduced primarily as a team project as a means to a specific goal, not as an ongoing hobby.

In our clubs now, we're mostly adults and many of us feel that *our* hobby is high power and we give short shrift to model rockets. How many of our adult flyers have even flown a model rocket (other than to fix something up for one of their kids) in the past couple of years? How many adult flyers have you met who react dismissively towards model rockets, or that they're only toys for kids? So what happens? The kids that do show up to fly rockets are partronized, or at worst, ignored.

Interesting observations...all the more so because I recall an NAR Board meeting in Phoenix, on the order of 20 years ago, where G. Harry and Bill Stine were our guests. Both talked about the 'numbers game' that rocketry vendors play - that they need to bring in as many young / new rocketeers as possible, because we didn't then (and still don't, IMO) know what the 'markers' were that distinguished a one-shot 'rockets as toys' flyer from the ones who would become our dedicated hobbyists, building rockets of all sizes and earning those multi-decade NAR membership pins. So, if we can't figure out how to market to that core group early, it is important to capture as many folks as possible with the RTF, ARTF, and starter sets. The more folks we bring in through that initial 'funnel,' the more of the core 'lifers' we will find. I've said it before and I'll say it again...Harry Stine had an annoying habit of being right - about a lot of things. [This is something I have told all 3 of his kids - and they all understood exactly what I meant.]

So - EVERY avenue we can open up to bring rocketry to kids (and their parents) is important!

 

[PayLoad]

This thread has evolved beautifully, and is a real eye opener. It was never a criticism of anyone, but an expression of grief observing where the hobby I love is going.

Then I thought of this one simple thing - when I was a kid, building model cars was big. Do they even sell model cars anymore?

 

[Steve Shannon]

“The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated.“
I think it was Oscar Wilde who made that phrase famous, but it applies to rocketry as well. I constantly hear about the need to attract more members or the hobby will die. The fact is that we’re not in a decline. Both NAR and Tripoli have grown considerably. NAR, which is focused more on youth activities as a Model Rocketry organization topped 7,000 members and appears to be well on its way to 8,000. Tripoli, which is more oriented towards adult and research activities, is above 4,700 members this year. It was at 4500 last year. That’s not massive growth, but neither is it a death spiral.

But what we do see could be a harbinger of things to come. It has become much more difficult to find places to launch in the more populated areas of the United States, especially the east and southeast, but also some areas in the west. Urban sprawl coupled with drought and elevated temperatures have resulted in fewer launch sites and launch opportunities. Our hobby is unable to overcome urban sprawl, drought, or elevated temperatures, so we must figure out how to work within the constraints that result. I intended to introduce my grandchildren to model rocketry this year and I’ve already decided on the inclusion of water rockets, at least initially. I can launch them even during a drought.

This year is an anomaly in many ways. Economics will result in some people dropping out and we must try to make it easier for people to rejoin. Tripoli halted revoking cert levels for one year and we’re talking about how to permanently improve our policy. In late 2019, Tripoli also reduced the cost of youth and student memberships to only $10. Colleges are more involved in rocketry than anytime in my memory and we felt this was a good way to reduce the economic barrier.
So, I believe the initial premise is wrong in the same way as the blind men coming to conclusions after feeling different parts of the elephant. Although there are some regional challenges, rocketry is growing, rather than dying. We all have a role to play in keeping that growth alive by introducing young people and helping them get started. Placing the responsibility on someone else never works. There has never been a more dedicated Estes President since Mr. Estes.