The Future of Rocketry or the Demise of it.

[CPUTommy]

I had an interesting conversation the other day with another rocketeer, And while thinking about it last night im convinced im right.

Theroy: We are our own worse enemys and are acually helping the sport/hobby of rockets to diminsh right before our eyes.

Facts: My buddy and I are planning on buying reloadable motors, I tell him, We will call aerotech and place a bulk order and at least save on shipping. He says to me, No XXXXXXX has them for 4 dollars cheaper. I look at him and say your kidding me right? His response was no.

I tried to explain to him that 4 dollars is not "what your saving" its acually what your INVESTING into a company who supplys motors, casings, etc.. For some reason he could not understand why I would want to spend the extra 4 dollars. He is in no way hard up or poor, Nor is he frugal to the point of being cheap..

I can only think that if someone got ahold of a bulk of balsa, body tubes and plastic nose cones from china, and put together a kit similar to say an estes or quest, and shiped them out for x amout, thats directley hurting the sport. The person doesnt have the means to mass distribute or have access to the bigger stores etc.

I started building rockets when I was 12 and they were all estes kits, Imagine if that was not an option for the next generation of kids? Imagine only being able to buy motors "online" and not from a great company. Those things will directley have an impact on our hobby, maybe not in a week or a year, but eventually it will.

I personally am giving my money to the company I feel is going to help the future of rocketering. I will always buy an estes/quest kit when I see one that catches my eye, I will alwalys order my motors from Aerotech because they have proven themselves to me. I will do what I can to RE INVEST in the companys who I feel are worth it. Special parts, and out of the norm stuff is exempt as each thing is diffrent than the "whole" of my point.

Please understand, I dont work for estes or aerotech, Im not "Specifically" saying buy one brand or another, These two are my own personal choices at the time. The hobby shop I frequent has both mfg kits as well as BP motors. I want to give back to the younger generations and provide them the same choices I had growing up.

And on one last note, My buddy bought 3 kits "online" and when only 2 kits showed up the first call he made was to me, BLAH BLAH BLAH They shorted me a kit..whaahh whaah wahhh..My repsonse was call em, probably a simple mistake, His response, They dont have a phone number, only email.... I could only laugh and instead of saying to him "I told you so" My response was, That wouldnt have happend it you bought it from a "real rocket company"

3 days later, No response to his email.

Tom

 

[eggplant]

When you buy an Aerotech motor, Aerotech always makes money on it, no matter which supplier it comes from...

 

[CPUTommy]

Understand totally, But id rather ensure aerotech has a "better" bottom line than company XXX...... who only retails the motors.

Investement as I understand it.

1. In finance, the purchase of a financial product or other item of value with an expectation of favorable future returns. In general terms, investment means the use money in the hope of making more money.

2. In business, the purchase by a producer of a physical good, such as durable equipment or inventory, in the hope of improving future business.

 

[dasein668]

When you buy an Aerotech motor, Aerotech always makes money on it, no matter which supplier it comes from...

Though they do make less. On the other hand, it keeps the vendors in business which is a good thing. I have the same thing with my brewery: I make much more money per bottle of beer that you buy directly from me at the brewery. No distributor or retailer taking a cut. On the other hand, without my distributor and retailers, I wouldn't sell nearly as much beer or reach as many customers. Which is better for me? In the long term, having my customers buy beer from a retailer.

 

[plastic_gorilla]

I buy motors from my LHS - they have a good stock and it is worth my while to keep them in business.

 

[nukemmcssret]

Though they do make less. On the other hand, it keeps the vendors in business which is a good thing. I have the same thing with my brewery: I make much more money per bottle of beer that you buy directly from me at the brewery. No distributor or retailer taking a cut. On the other hand, without my distributor and retailers, I wouldn't sell nearly as much beer or reach as many customers. Which is better for me? In the long term, having my customers buy beer from a retailer.

What is the name of your brewery? I am a hombrewer and BJCP Certified Judge, I belong to the Central Florida Homebrewers. Maybe your beer is distibuted here in Central FL! That would be cool!

 

[Disaster_Guy]

I don't think that the arguement should be to buy direct from the manufacturer but rather what vendor you spend with. I buy at least 20% of my building supplies and estes motors and special order some AT SU MPR motors from my LHS (even though they are more expensive than what I can get a lot for online (where I get most my stuff) because I want them to still be there when I need stuff at the last minute. This is the same reason that I will by reloads from vendors at a launch, I want to make sure they show up in the future when I news that last minute part or motor.

 

[10fttall]

I started building rockets when I was 12 and they were all estes kits, Imagine if that was not an option for the next generation of kids? Imagine only being able to buy motors "online" and not from a great company. Those things will directley have an impact on our hobby, maybe not in a week or a year, but eventually it will.

Huh? Do you realize how contradictory this is? You only want to buy from big, strong, hefty companies...but only buy directly from them? You do understand that a big, strong, healthy company relies on distributors and retailers to get their product out in volume? And you don't want somebody getting a bunch of cheap materials from China, so you're going to stick with Estes? Hmmm.

The hobby shop I frequent has both mfg kits as well as BP motors.

Wait, you buy things from a hobby shop? I thought you wanted to invest in the companies, why not buy straight from Estes? Estes is losing money every time the hobby shop buys wholesale and sells for profit at a markup. My goodness man, you are killing Estes with every purchase! When oh when will you stop these needless attacks on our hobby?

 

[Pat_B]

I have a different viewpoint on this. It used to be understood by many that a manufacturer would not compete with its resellers. The resellers can easily go out of business if they are undercut by the companies they are buying their products from.

What I've noticed in the hobby industry is that it's becoming more commonplace for manufacturers to compete with their resellers. It works if the mfg's keep their prices at their 'suggested list price' (like Estes) and allow the resellers to go below that. But if the mfg's decide to undercut the resellers then that's extremely unethical in my viewpoint.

It's the best of both worlds by supporting resellers. You are keeping more companies in business, allowing for a wider geographical distribution of products, and the manufacturer is still making a cut of the money.

I wouldn't feel bad about Aerotech in particular. NAR spent hundreds of thousands of their members dollars fighting the BATF for which Aerotech benefited greatly- all without thanks to the NAR members from AT.

 

[Csinclair]

If Aerotech was hurting because of the costs of its distribution chain, they would eliminate it, and force everyone to buy from them.

Usually the opposite happens: A company manufactures a product, and tries to sell direct to the consumer only, and realizes it can sell more with a distribution chain.

 

[Highpowerrocketyahoo]

With all due respect to the OP, I don't think you have a good grasp on basic economic principles and growth marketing. I mean seriously...

 

[CPUTommy]

I pay around 20 bux for a pack of 3 E9's from my local hobby store, Can I get them cheaper online? You betcha. Will I ? Nope....Id rather give my money to the hobby store so that they stay in business. Can I get the same estes kit online for a few dollars cheaper? im sure of it.. I chose not to.

Can my LHS provide me with RMS motors? Nope, Can I purchase them for a little bit more from the MFG? Yes, Can I get them cheaper from some "online" store, im sure of it.

I chose to give that little extra money to the MFG to keep them going.


I just have a diffrent outlook on where and who gets my $

and by the way, I own two small companys, If I didnt charge a fee, I wouldnt be able to provide a service. Are there people who come into my shop and say I can get it cheaper online, Yup, every day. I send them on there way, and wish them luck.... but a majority of the time they find there way back to me and usually end up paying MORE in the long run.

Tom

For all of you who save a pennie or two, good luck with that, hope it works out for ya.

 

[troj]

To me, the vendors I most like to support are those who show up at launches -- most clubs are in better shape when they have a vendor who attends launches, making products available on-site.

Second, I like to support those who have a fair price, and who treat their customers well. Note that "fair" does not mean "cheap". I have no problem paying for good service.

My list of who I order from is short. At the same time, my list of who I order from, I'm confident I'll be treated well and get a fair price. Most of the HPR vendors are also folks that I deal with at the field.

-Kevin

 

[Highpowerrocketyahoo]

Ditto

 

[cdondanville]

I own two small companys, If I didnt charge a fee, I wouldnt be able to provide a service. Are there people who come into my shop and say I can get it cheaper online, Yup, every day. I send them on there way, and wish them luck.... but a majority of the time they find there way back to me and usually end up paying MORE in the long run.

By your logic shouldn't all these people be cutting you out and buying from the MFG? I am confused.

 

[CPUTommy]

Sure, they sure can, Some do. When they have a problem and come to me, Im not going to support a part that someone else made money off of. I send them back to deal directley with whom they purchased the part from.

Example: happend a month ago, A customer needed a new motherboard, I gave him a price and he came back with one he bought online for 15 dollars cheaper. The motherboard was DOA and didnt work, and he wanted me to deal directley with who he purchased it from. I refused and told him, your dealing with the seller and to top it off your paying me for my time it took to install the bad board as well as for the second board.

People pay me because I provide a service.

I make little on parts, but will support that part if they purchase it from me. Its like buying a reloadable motor from an online store, and having it blow up. The online store is more apt to say sorry, where as the mfg will say, Sorry here is what we can do for you.

Gotta pay if you wanna play. And ive learned that if you deal directley with the MFG (intel for example) they stand behind there product and will go out of there way to fix a problem, where as a wholesaler will provide little to no after the sale support. There isnt enough profit in the part to even Think about dealing with anything.

In the long run, saving a few pennies acually cost you more. Ive learned that lesson enough to not make the same mistake.

Tom

 

[Csinclair]

You are contradicting yourself.

Your saying its better to cut out the Vendor, and buy from the MFG because the MFG makes more money that way.

Then in the very next post you say you are a vendor, and people need you to provide support.

Which is it? Run all the vendors out of business, or support the vendors so that they are there to support you? What is your position?

 

[Csinclair]

For some reason I missed your last response, so parts of my previous post have already been answered.

Your service related business does not really compare to someone selling re-loads. Like I said in my previous post... If aerotech was hurting by selling wholesale to Vendors, they would stop. The fact is they do better when they have a distribution chain to provide support to their customers

 

[CPUTommy]

The simple answer is give your money to the right people.

People you want to succeed, Not just the cheapist, but the best.

When it comes to me personally, I would rather purchase directley from aerotech for reasons ive explained, And I also spend my money at the local hobby store to keep them in business. I could buy BP motors online cheaper but would rather spend the extra money to keep the hobby store in business.

Id rather give my money directly to aerotech because I personally like them as a company. Could I purchase cheaper ? YES.. Will I.. NO...Will I eventually purchase from another motor company like AMW.. Most likley... Will I look for the absoulte lowest price, definatley not.

Obviously MFG's need a supply chain and in that chain there needs to be profit all the way down the line or that chain would cease to exhist.

Im refering to finding a part, motor, kit online from some "company with a website" and the lowest price. Do resellers provide support and help the mfg with supplying product? 100%

Im positive there are vendors reading this, and can understand the point im trying to make.

Again, Saving a few pennies or dollars usually costs you in the long run one way or another.

Tom

 

[luke strawwalker]

Sounds like you like throwing your money away... cest le vis... whatever floats yer boat...

Companies don't sell ANYTHING at a loss except under extreme circumstances like going out of business, fire sales, etc...

Believe me if you can get whatever from a cheaper vendor online, it's because his overhead is lower and he's passing the savings on to you to get more sales volume and make a higher profit, versus selling at a higher price, selling less, and pocketing the profit. Whatever he paid to the company providing the parts or motors at wholesale, the wholesale price is set to cover their costs of production and a healthy profit, and yet still leave a margin for the distributor and retailer to make a profit. NOBODY is selling at a loss unless they're just unloading everything because they're going out of business for whatever reason.

I work in ag, and I've worked in retail sales, and I can tell you, that the markups throughout the supply chain ASSURE a healthy profit all the way up the supply chain to the final purchaser, elsewise the supplier would go out of business. Most people would be TOTALLY shocked and amazed at the markups on stuff as it moves through the supply chain. When I worked retail, we would be selling silk blouses or whatever imported by the BOXLOAD from SE Asia-- it was my job to pull them out of the boxes, take the plastic wrapper off each one, and put it on hangars going onto the sales floor (when I wasn't unloading trucks at the dock). Those blouses that retailed for $40-50 bucks would sit on the floor awhile til they were 'out of style' or whatever and go on sale, then red-tagged or whatever and finally sold at 70% off, even up to 90% off... BUT the company was STILL MAKING A PROFIT (though not much) selling them for $7-10 each... the rest was PURE PROFIT when sold at $70 each...

Don't feel bad for retailers and companies... if they're a successful business, they have a good handle on their overheads and inputs and production costs and figure out exactly how to price things to balance between demand and profit. Bulk suppliers, like us farmers producing meat animals and grain and cotton and other 'commodities' are held hostage on both ends-- having to buy inputs from a "retail supply chain" and selling "wholesale in bulk" what we produce, and have to pay the retail selling price when we buy and are forced to take whatever the buyer offers at selling time... it's a pretty tight squeeze sometime...

Later! OL JR

 

[10fttall]

Do resellers provide support and help the mfg with supplying product? 100%

The reseller does not matter unless you're talking about used products! If I'm buying an Estes kit from xyzrockets.com, Estes still supports me if something is missing. It is still considered a new product. The same thing goes for Aerotech. It's not like these websites have gone and robbed the Estes warehouse. This system is in place because ESTES WANTS IT! If they didn't, they wouldn't do it.

But, as has been said before, it's your money. If you choose to spend more of it than you have to, so be it. I just think you're being a bit dramatic (and a little incomprehensible) with your economic assertions of doom for rocketry over the practice of...buying rockets.

By the way, it is now 2011. Online retailing has been a widespread practice for many years. In fact you say you are a computer guy. So why do you always put "online" in quotes, as if to deride the practice? There's nothing wrong with just saying -my friend bought rockets online.

 

[CPUTommy]

I guess your missing my point. Im talking about giving my money to the company I want to survive.

To me, Its my money and my choices, Do I want to buy Aerotech motor casings over another brand? Yes, Would I go to a webstore and purchase there to save a dollar or two? No..

Its re-investing in what you belive. Will there be online stores? Forever !!! Will some come and go? Absoultey...

Its that simple.

 

[10fttall]

You are certainly entitled to do whatever you feel is best. I don't think it's correct or even logical to say that others are causing the demise of rocketry who buy rockets from places that the rocket manufacturers have authorized to sell their products.

In any case, good luck with the rockets and Merry Christmas!

 

[troj]

The comments about markups are a generalization that doesn't hold true across all product types.

Women's clothing is notorious for profit margin, and furniture is good, as well.

Other areas, such as consumer electronics, have horrible margins - less than 10%.

 

[J Blatz]

TommyCPU-

I think your heart is in the right place. Saving a buck here and there is a large part of why the middle class has disappeared - middle men put the operation into place and then us plebes bought cheap made in China crap, sealing the deal on our own economic demise. "Save money - Live better".
Yeah, sure.

I buy from people when I can, rather than "corporations". It will be a cold day in Hades before I order rocket products online from a company of which I do not know the name of the owner.

That having been said, Estes and Quest kits are mostly made in China. Quest motors are Chinese in origin, and I am not sure where Estes is having their motors made nowadays. There may be no lesser evil here.

I buy Semroc whenever possible. If there was a hobby store here, I would urge them to stock, but there isn't, so I buy direct and I hope that they make a good living because their product and service rocks. Is it cheap, no. Do I care? Not a bit.

AeroTech is another great company - made in the USA, and largely responsible for the fact that there is a high power rocketry hobby.

There are many other great manufacturers and vendors out there, and we should all support them rather than clearinghouse/best price type outfits.



Jason

 

[Csinclair]

I'm beginning to see your point. At first, it seemed as though you wanted to cut everyone out, including the local shops . Now I understand your focusing more on online vendors.

I do shop various online vendors, however, those that I do are local folks, some of which attend the same launches I do. There are not many places catering to Rocketry that are not small really. Mabye E-hobbies and Hobby Link would fall into that category. I stay away from them myself.

The vendors I buy online from include Tim at Wildman, Ken at Performance Hobbies, and CDI on occasion.

 

[CPUTommy]

Jason,

Thank you for understanding my point. Im a rather diffrent person than most, And even my wife finds it hard to understand my point sometimes.

I think you said it much easier and simplier than I attempted to.

Tom

 

[Csinclair]

J Blatz,

Please don't assume because a company is a corporation they are to big. I have a small business, and I am incorporated. Believe me, I am nowhere near what you would call a big business, just a guy and a couple of employees trying to keep our heads above water.

Incorporating just saves a little money at tax time and avoids a small business owner having to buy workmans comp for himself.

 

[CPUTommy]

Incorporating just saves a little money at tax time and avoids a small business owner having to buy workmans comp for himself.

My first business is a C corp and this state REQUIRES the owner to have workmans comp as well as all employees. My second business is Sole Propertieship which means NO COMP !!!!

Was funny, they classified us and my employees as clerical, (it was a low rate) then some guy decieded to change our clasification to sheet metal workers (highest rate possible)

Yeah, Massachusetts is horrible unless your Illegal, or lazy...

Tom

 

[jimzcatz]

Tom, about your support post. As I understand it, after talking with at least 2 retailers, Aerotech requires its dealers to support warranty claims. As I understand it, Aerotech will eventually re-imburse the dealer.