The End of Semroc?

[Zeus-cat]

I was going to post this over at YORF, but I am having login problems.

The model rocketry business is not only big enough for Ests and all these little guys, but I don't think I would still be flying if it were not for Semroc and some of the other vendors. I log all my flights in a spreadsheet so I compiled some statistics based on my flights since Jan 1, 2009.

Rocket made by flights
clone (OOP Estes) 11
Estes 10
Fliskits 6
Launch Pad 16
Scratch build 33
Semroc 3
Total 79 flights

Motors used
Estes A-E 78
Aerotech 3
Total 81 (several cluster flights which is why motors used exceeds launches)

Only 13% of my flights have used rockets produced by Estes, but 96% of the flights were made on Estes motors.

It is the wide varity of kits and hardware from various vendors that has kept me interested in flying rockets. On 28 of those flights with Estes motors I launched a Perfectflite altimeter. Most of my rockets now use Nomex chute protectors from Sirius Rocketry. Even the Estes kit I just finished was modified with a Kevlar shock cord from Semroc.

I just finished a scratch build rocket that will use Estes motors. At the same time I finished an Estes Sidewinder kit that I modified to a 24mm mount. Again, it will fly mainly on Estes motors. I am building a Fliskits Alien8 that will fly on Estes motors. I am also building a scratch build rocket that will fly only on Aerotech RMS motors. I ALWAYS launch at least one Estes powered rocket to test the wind before I launch an RMS powered rocket. So even flying another vendors motor gets me to fly at least one (probably 5 or 6) Estes motors!

If I had to solely rely on Estes for my rocketry needs the number of my launches would have been a lot lower. The bean counters and the lawyers representing Estes need to realize that many of us use the vendors to enhance our rocketry experience and not to replace Estes. Take a good look at the numbers above and you will see that getting rid of Semroc and other vendors will not increase the amount of Estes products I buy, it will decrease it.

 

[Der Red Max]

It's hard to believe that we would be talking about a bully in the rocket world, but that's what i'm seeing.

If you were look at it as "a bully in the business world" would you still be just as amazed?

 

[CharlaineC]

Im rather disappointed in Estes and hobbieco. For many reasions but this recent action is just a begining. I have a strange and uncomfortable feeling that their are other people who are helping to keep classic estes patterns alive in rocketry for us loyal to them. Patterns that without their help, would be naked,or missing those parts we no longer can gain from estes. This may for them be a so called use our name proudly campaign. But their shurly is a byfar better means to do this, seeing that as we all well and know, they have known about this being done for years and loved and relished in the glory of their proud history being maintained. I fear that the others who have been aiding to keep these classic designs alive are soon to be in the same boat. Carl and all others who have been helping to keep their designs alive are in my thoughts. I refuse to state names only for fear that my post might aid estes and hobbico in their quest to do this to those others.
char

 

[Scott Evil]

Why would a corporation spend $100(s)K+ on their legal crew to attack $10K of market share annually?

Do the upper end folks at Hobbieco know how much money they are throwing away and still have a good consience about it?

 

[karmicavenger]

Wake up little people. We don't mean anything to corporate America. We are only meaningful to small mom & pop biz that know you by name. I can't believe that there are those of you standing up for Estes/Hobbico. Frankly, I was hoping Estes would just fade away. Do they even produce anything on our soil???? There product is junk and everbody knows it but we have very little choice in the LPR so we keep our mouths shut and buy what they tell us to. Scratch build your own kits.

Want to make a difference.........voice your opinion LOUDLY, support Semroc and let Estes/Hobbico know what you think about this.

IT IS OUR HOBBY NOT THEIRS!

Sending bad Karma to you Drinkerbiddle & Reath. May your third eye hurt from the outpouring of negative thoughts sent by all.

 

[rrobe99999]

I agree with many of the opinions here, but I am optimistic that Semroc could still have a great business W/O infringing on any Estes/Cox Copyrights. I rarely buy kits anymore, and just buy parts to make my classic clones. Semroc also has a great line of their own kit designs which is how they started out the 1st time. I would like to see them turn out some more new original designs. I know they are a small company and cannot bring in huge money, but it would be great if they could compete with Estes by offering better new designs and having a superior product line-up. I would love to see Semroc kits beat Estes kits in NAR competetions. I also think Semroc could expand more into MPR and HPR with some original old school styled designs. I hope everything works out for them, and would hate to see them go out of business. I guess I should go place a huge order just in case.

 

[SSenesy]

Order placed. We can't afford to lose any more great vendors/magazines/etc!

Support Semroc!

 

[shreadvector]

Why would a corporation spend $100(s)K+ on their legal crew to attack $10K of market share annually?

Do the upper end folks at Hobbieco know how much money they are throwing away and still have a good consience about it?

Simple.

If you do not defend your intellectual property from unrestricted use by a small company (I did not say "any use", I said "unrestricted use"), then when you have to go to court to stop a huge corporation from making clones you may lose the case.

If it is as simple as including a proprietary rights paragraph in the instructions and a small statement on the advertising and product card/pacakaging stating that the design is copyright Estes/hobbico and used with permission. There may be a small royalty fee or there may *not* be if the agreement states that they will allow them to make the clones as long as there is no plan to mass produce and market them by Estes/Hobbico. if they plan to do so, they can advise them in a pre-determined period of time to wind down clone production.

The real fear may be that if they do not protect their intellectual property then a Chinese firm could flood the US market with rockets called "alpha" or "Space Plane" or any other name used by Estes or Centuri in the past or a model that is identical in looks but with a new name.

Just because the previous owners did not do this (and some have stated theories that he just did not care about classic or 'real' model rockets so he had no interest in protecting them), does not mean that the designs and names do not belong to Estes.

I am confident that it will be extremely mutually beneficial to work this out in writing so that everyone is properly protected and everyone can benefit. As I said in another response, I would not be surprised to see a link on the Estes website that points you to SEMROC to get authorized copies of classic Estes and Centuri designs that are currently out of production by Estes.

See, words like "currently out of production by Estes" indicate that they might mass produce them in the future.

I expect to see words like "reproduced under license from Estes/Hobbico." with the additional wording about copyright.

An written agreement will protect SEMROC if and when Hobbico has to take legal action against the imported or domestic mass marketed clones that could represent a threat to their business and the jobs of the Estes employees.

Ever take a look at the launch pad and controller made and sold by "SKY" ?
https://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00GemtCRQBJEqc/Model-Rocket-Kits.jpg

 

[dragon_rider10]

If you were look at it as "a bully in the business world" would you still be just as amazed?

Not really. I think this speaks to a lot of our frustration. How many of us see rocketry as big business? The Quest / Estes rivalry will never get to the level of say Coca Cola / Pepsi. As we all know, many of the players in this industry are hobbyists at heart, and rightly so - with vendors assembling kits in batches of dozens, not thousands. When Bill Stine and Vern Estes were forging the way in the beginning, I believe they were of the same character. That is what made their efforts successful. Somewhere along the way, and I don't know the whole history of it, Estes went 'big-time'. That's when a different mindset crept into the company and now, we find ourselves with a corporate 'giant' throwing its weight around. Pushing the little guys into corners which shouldn't exist.

 

[Swampworks]

Our VP called their VP, worked out a deal, then called the lawyers and told them to shut up and write it down.

If this were done more often, the world would be a much more pleasant place.

[With luck and common sense, there are people who can tell the lawyers to be sensible.

"Tell" being the operative word.........Personally, I don't believe the word sensible should be allowed to be used to describe most lawyers.

 

[shreadvector]

Not really. I think this speaks to a lot of our frustration. How many of us see rocketry as big business? The Quest / Estes rivalry will never get to the level of say Coca Cola / Pepsi. As we all know, many of the players in this industry are hobbyists at heart, and rightly so - with vendors assembling kits in batches of dozens, not thousands. When Bill Stine and Vern Estes were forging the way in the beginning, I believe they were of the same character. That is what made their efforts successful. Somewhere along the way, and I don't know the whole history of it, Estes went 'big-time'. That's when a different mindset crept into the company and now, we find ourselves with a corporate 'giant' throwing its weight around. Pushing the little guys into corners which shouldn't exist.

G. Harry Stine, not Bill Stine.

Not Coke and Pepsi, but maybe Coke and C&C or Coke and Faygo?

 

[dragon_rider10]

G. Harry Stine, not Bill Stine.

My apologies, I knew I should have looked that up before i threw in names...

 

[BEC]

Do they even produce anything on our soil??

Absolutely - as a minimum, every Estes rocket motor ever made.

This whole situation stinks and I just spent more than I'd originally planned (when the sale was announced) on Chinese motors from Quest as part of my own "vote with my wallet" action.

I'm still pulling together my direct support of Semroc in the form of another order even though I have a big backlog of unbuilt kits and a good supply of parts and little room for more.....

I sincerely hope that this plays out along the lines that Fred Shecter described in post 98.

 

[shreadvector]

My apologies, I knew I should have looked that up before i threw in names...

Well, you could have made a rallying speach:

https://www.entertonement.com/collections/5057/John-Bluto-Blutarsky

 

[kenobi65]

I placed an order with Semroc last night for a half-dozen kits, to show my support. Fingers continue to be crossed.

 

[hutch]

It's been said before, but the best solution here is:

Rick Piester, currently Vice President of Proprietary Products, Hobbico, Inc. must first call off the lawyers. They work for him.

Second, he should give Carl a personal call, apologize for how this was handled and arrange a meeting.

Third, he should come to a reasonable accommodation with Carl, that will allow Estes/Hobbico to retain it's intellectual property, and will allow Carl and Semroc to continue to run his excellent business and support the hobby. There are MANY win-win scenarios here.

Fourth, Rick should direct the company lawyers to draw up paperwork that reflects the decision of the Vice President of Proprietary Products.

 

[Pem Tech]

I'm relieved to see Carl posted yesterday. With the medical issues this stress and strain does not help....
Hope you and the family are holding up as well as can be expected.

And speaking badly of attorneys and law firms....
We had ours crawfish on us yesterday, after working with them for several months. Called me yesterday 30 minutes before finalization and said they couldn't take our case.

Lousy *@#:&!

Yeah, I got your Drink&Bitter&Death right here...
:bangbang:

 

[jbuscaglia]

Well, you could have made a rallying speach:

Is that anything like a speech?

 

[shreadvector]

Is that anything like a speech?

It's very simulur. :eyepop:

 

[ScrapDaddy]

My apologies, I knew I should have looked that up before i threw in names...

The Handbook says it's bill stine.
Back cover, last sentence.

 

[JStarStar]

Simple.

If you do not defend your intellectual property from unrestricted use by a small company (I did not say "any use", I said "unrestricted use"), then when you have to go to court to stop a huge corporation from making clones you may lose the case.

If it is as simple as including a proprietary rights paragraph in the instructions and a small statement on the advertising and product card/pacakaging stating that the design is copyright Estes/hobbico and used with permission. There may be a small royalty fee or there may *not* be if the agreement states that they will allow them to make the clones as long as there is no plan to mass produce and market them by Estes/Hobbico. if they plan to do so, they can advise them in a pre-determined period of time to wind down clone production.

The real fear may be that if they do not protect their intellectual property then a Chinese firm could flood the US market with rockets called "alpha" or "Space Plane" or any other name used by Estes or Centuri in the past or a model that is identical in looks but with a new name.

Just because the previous owners did not do this (and some have stated theories that he just did not care about classic or 'real' model rockets so he had no interest in protecting them), does not mean that the designs and names do not belong to Estes.

I am confident that it will be extremely mutually beneficial to work this out in writing so that everyone is properly protected and everyone can benefit. As I said in another response, I would not be surprised to see a link on the Estes website that points you to SEMROC to get authorized copies of classic Estes and Centuri designs that are currently out of production by Estes.

See, words like "currently out of production by Estes" indicate that they might mass produce them in the future.

I expect to see words like "reproduced under license from Estes/Hobbico." with the additional wording about copyright.

An written agreement will protect SEMROC if and when Hobbico has to take legal action against the imported or domestic mass marketed clones that could represent a threat to their business and the jobs of the Estes employees.

Ever take a look at the launch pad and controller made and sold by "SKY" ?
https://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00GemtCRQBJEqc/Model-Rocket-Kits.jpg

Ding ding.

Coming to an amicable arrangement where Semroc produces "authorized replica versions" of classic Estes/Centuri kits for a nominal royalty is the ultimate win-win resolution. Estes/Hobbico gets protection for its intellectual property, copyrights and patents, gets to market the kits they want to, while Semroc continues to serve a highly specialized subset of the overall market.

Estes/Hobbico likely has no interest in returning the vast majority of old kits to production, so ANY royalty they would realize from licensing production to Semroc (or anyone else) would essentially be found money.

Any sale of a Semroc clone kit of an OOP Estes/Centuri kit boosts the overall interest in rocketry, as well as sales of Estes motors. (I suppose part of the solution might be for Semroc to specifically refer to Estes motors as 'recommended' in the kit instructions. If individual rocketeers want to investigate alternate motor manufacturers, it should not be too difficult a "quest" to find them. )

Carl may correct me but I doubt very much Semroc has massive backlogs of kit inventory. So if Estes/Hobbico decided it wanted to any restore particular classic kits to its lineup, just give Semroc a 90-day heads up to remove it from THEIR active lineup and let Estes start selling the "official kit" until it sees fit to re-delete it, at which point Semroc could sell the "authorized replica" version again.

The same arrangement goes with parts. Estes has been out of the a-la-carte parts business for a long long time. Any parts sales by Semroc tend to lead to the construction of scratch built rockets which will likely use Estes motors.

 

[shreadvector]

I expect that all parties should learn the lyrics ASAP as I expect them to be signing it soon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumbaya

(Thanks for the "ding, ding")

 

[Bone Daddy]

What would happen if a company that manufactures rockets see's an original design posted here on this, or any other forum, and put it into production without notifying the original designer? This may be intentional or inadvertent.

I have designed and built 19 rockets of original design. I posted build threads for a few of them here. Each is unique and is not a copy of any manufactured rocket, past or present, in or out of production. They also have, to the best of my knowledge unique names not used for existing or out of production rocket kits.

It is apparent from this conversation that I need to protect my intellectual property and prevent a person or company from making (for sale) unauthorized copies of products designed/created/owned by me DBA Bone Daddy's Rockin' Rockets even if those designs are out of, are not yet or have never been in production. A company that has created and owns product designs, copyrights, trademarks, etc. needs to protect its own rights.

Individuals wishing to clone one of the designs is free to do so as long as there is no monetary gain. Those wishing to reproduce the design for monetary gain may contact Bone Daddy's Rockin' Rockets to discuss their proposed use of said design.

The first kit to be offered is Double Bypass Tm a two stage rocket with gap staging. Out of sight with a B6-0 to a 1/2A6-2.

Why Not Make Everyday Valentine's Day Tm and buy one today?

Happy flyin' everyone.

Bones

 

[Der Red Max]

The first kit to be offered is Double Bypass © a two stage rocket with gap staging. Out of sight with a B6-0 to a 1/2A6-2.

Why Not Make Everyday Valentine's Day © and buy one today?

That's odd - why would you copyright the terms: "a two stage rocket with gap staging" & "and buy one today"?:eyepop:

 

[hutch]

At least he was polite enough to wait till after NARAM to send the courier packet to Semroc. Might have been easier and more straight forward to deliver it in person at NARAM.

It would have shown even more intestinal fortitude if he had simply discussed his concerns with Carl at NARAM directly, and come to an amicable solution.

Once you involve the lawyers, the only winners will be...... the lawyers. Everyone else loses.

Rick needs to shut the lawyers down, reach out to Carl, and solve this problem.

It's not rocket science.

 

[shreadvector]

I get the impression that Mr. Piester's company just spent $10M (estimate) for Estes and is cranky because previous ownership abandoned Centuri (his Dad's) and Estes original designs which are now being "ripped off" by Semroc. This is his attempt to improve Estes hobby position and reclaim all past designs no longer produced so that Estes may choose (or not) to reproduce these old designs in the future.

At least he was polite enough to wait till after NARAM to send the courier packet to Semroc. Might have been easier and more straight forward to deliver it in person at NARAM.

I believe this is absolutely incorrect. Barry Tunick's Estes started bringing back Centuri designs at least 2 years ago. And they were "Centuri Corp" for a very long time.

You should read my responses in this thread as well as the duplicate but not identical thread over on YORF.

Why are most of these posts encouraging the worst case scenario and inventing evil and sinister motives? Do you want this to be resolved quickly and amicably or do you want them to battle to the death?

 

[Bone Daddy]

MarkH thanks for the pro bono legal advice.

Could be a case of bad council by my legal team. After checking the Raisin Bran and Corn Pops box, they are probably Trademarks and I have edited the first post to reflect this change. It may be premature since my legal council is currently taking a nap, as you see below, and is unavailable for comment.

Bones

 

[judo]

Why are most of these posts encouraging the worst case scenario and inventing evil and sinister motives?

Lawyers.

 

[SCIGS30]

Estes and its employees do not leave a bad taste in my mouth. When I first came back to this hobby, it was Estes that referred me to Semroc and Phred for aftermarket parts. I cannot believe all the accusations, assumptions and thoughts of boycotting Estes. All this and we still don't know all the facts or what the outcome is going to be. I will reserve judgement until I have all the facts, and still I will continue to support Estes and Semroc. Carl is a prime example of how a business should operate and I wish other companies can take note. With that being said, it is a small business and he is able to keep everything at a personal level. Hobbico is a large business owned by its employees and is not able to operate without corporate lawyers and they are not alone. Hobbico has many subdivisions and boycotting Estes will do nothing to hurt Hobbico. What is the worse case scenario? Hobbico dumps Estes? Who will that really hurt? I have a lot of respect for the employees at Estes and I will in no shape or form do anything that will hurt their livelihood unless there is proof they are intentionally attempting to shut down Carl. There is a lot of room for negotiating still and I am anxious to see the outcome. We can all speculate on what should or will happen with this, but it is all speculation. I am pleased that Estes employees post messages here and answer our non political questions, it would be a shame to loose that. Once again, Hobbico is a large business and they are going to do what is in their best interest as management deems necessary, this is how all large business operate. I did talk with my Father in laws Lawyer for his business and showed him this thread. He did advise me this area of the law is tricky and requires lawyers that specialize in trademark and copy right infringements. He did say that most corporate lawyers know better than to send out a threating letter when it comes to infringement alligations. If a company or law firm were to do this, they could be sued if they did not follow through. The reason for this is to prevent large corporations from scare tactics of smaller businesses. Any way he used a bunch of large terms that I cannot remember or understand.......Lawyers.

 

[WillMarchant]

Well, I went and read Mr Piester's postings on YORF. And we've seen Carl's postings.

I just placed large (at least for me) orders with Quest and Semroc.