Thanks to -- I forget! Igniters hacked!

Discussion in 'Low Power Rocketry (LPR)' started by Bat-mite, Oct 18, 2019.

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  1. Nov 11, 2019 #61

    Ez2cDave

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    Legitimate link :

    https://powderinc.com/black-powder
     
  2. Nov 11, 2019 #62

    ThirstyBarbarian

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    Lol! My point was they definitely had more powder in them. Earlier someone had said they all contained the same amount of powder as a regular fire cracker, and the bigger ones may have just been more tightly confined. Not true, at least not for the crazy, crusty, handmade ones we used to buy from the secret room under the staircase in the TJ Mercado.
     
  3. Nov 11, 2019 #63

    ThirstyBarbarian

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    Does this come in Extra Medium?
     
  4. Nov 12, 2019 #64

    tOD

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    I guess I'm lucky to live in PA. I went to the local gun shop about a year ago and got a pound of Goex ffffg. The experience was totally unremarkable. I can't even remember if I had to sign for it or anything. We do have a primitive arms hunting season for deer and bear so there are a number of shops that carry it.
     
  5. Nov 12, 2019 #65

    prfesser

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    I may not have been clear. What I meant was that *today's* *imitations* of M80s---so-called M90, M100, M1000, whatever---cannot contain more than 50 mg of flash powder, by federal law. It doesn't matter what the firecracker is called, 50 mg of flash powder is the maximum per item.

    It's possible that today's imitations contain more stuff; I've never opened one up to see. But if they do, either it's 50 mg of flash plus other stuff that *isn't* flash powder...or the makers are skirting federal law.
     
  6. Nov 12, 2019 #66

    heada

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    M-80s were outlawed in the 60's but they were still kinda available until the 80s or so if you knew who to ask. A few years back, I had a request for "bottom shot" fireworks shells. I'd never made them before so I mixed up 25 grams (about 1 ounce) of flash powder to test it out. Placed it in a coffee filter with a long section of visco fuse. The woosh and fireball it made makes black powder look wimpy so I decided that was the last time I was going to make flash powder.

    Lots of options to augment starters. I would stay away from flash powder and sparklers.
     
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  7. Nov 12, 2019 #67

    Ez2cDave

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    Google "Crimson Powder" and Thermite . . .

    Dave F.
     
  8. Nov 12, 2019 #68

    Tom

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    I was wondering.

    Last weekend I had two E11-6's CATO on me. But I also had some successful launches with an E11-4 and some C's

    But I was wondering if it was at all possible that my homebrew igniters may have caused the CATOs? Plugged the exit hole or something?

    I used 32ga Nichrome with a loop on the end dipped in fabri-tac and some black powder. They actually worked quite well.

    I also should note that both CATO engines were from the same pack, so I suspect the engines were bad and not the igniters fault.

    But my wife was asking "Maybe it was those igniters you made?"
     
  9. Nov 13, 2019 #69

    Bat-mite

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    Uh, the only E11 motor with which I am familiar is the Aerotech E11-3 Blackjack. Do mean Estes E12?

    Assuming you are indeed referencing Estes BP E12 motors, then no, your igniters did not cause the cato. BP motors are end-burners. You aren't shoving a long piece of wire up a core, which can crimp and block the nozzle.
     
  10. Nov 13, 2019 #70

    Steve Shannon

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    Why? Better options exist.
     
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  11. Nov 13, 2019 #71

    jbr

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    copper thermite works great
     
  12. Nov 13, 2019 #72

    Tom

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    Yes my bad Estes E12-6 2 out of three in the pack CATO'd the last one went about 3 feet off the rod and exploded totaling the rocket.
     
  13. Nov 14, 2019 #73

    Steve Shannon

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    Except that it’s extremely static sensitive and can create a shock wave that can damage a motor.
     
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  14. Nov 14, 2019 #74

    prfesser

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    This. Also, my understanding is that copper thermite in anything smaller than a J motor is asking for a CATO.
     
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  15. Nov 14, 2019 #75

    Bat-mite

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    So, then, no, the igniter did not cause the cato. Estes E9 motors have been discontinued due to the high cato rate. But there are occasional reports of E12s going boom, too.

    Please go to http://www.motorcato.org/ and fill out a MESS report for each motor. That will help the certifying organizations do trending. Thanks.
     
  16. Nov 14, 2019 #76

    Tom

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    Sorry don't mean to hijack the thread but thanks for the reassurance. I will go fill out that report soon. Thanks again.

    ps; I just went to get the remaining E12-6 and noticed I had two E9's in the box. I should probably just destroy them?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  17. Nov 15, 2019 #77

    Ez2cDave

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    Steve,

    Just some unregulated options . . .

    Dave F.
     
  18. Nov 15, 2019 #78

    heada

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    There are several unregulated pyrogen kits on the market that fill the role of augmenting Estes starters very well. Using a more sensitive mixture like thermite when options like Magnelite or QuickBurst would be more than sufficient is not advice I'd give.
     
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  19. Nov 15, 2019 #79

    rharshberger

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    Its amazing how people are recommending high energy igniter to light BP which is sensitive enough a warm sneeze lights it.
     
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  20. Nov 15, 2019 #80

    Ez2cDave

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    My emphasis is on lighting clusters, potentially large clusters, without using a Flash Pan or constructing a "PVC Spider".

    Dave F.
     
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  21. Nov 15, 2019 #81

    heada

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    Boris did some testing with Magnelite and clusters. His threads are on the site here. I don't recall exactly how many but he was doing more than 12 motors at once without anything special other than a normal launch controller.

    https://www.rocketflite.com/products_ml.htm

    I take Cat5 twister pair cabling and solder 40 AWG nichrome bridge wire on a pair and then dip in pyrogen. I've done 6x F42 and 1x H180 in a LOC Ultimate that way. All lite on the ground with nothing special (the H180 comes up to pressure about 1/2 a second after the F42s so its already about 10 feet up, WAY cool effect). I've taken 32AWG magnet wire and soldered the same 40AWG bridge wire on and dip them to start a 12x C6 cluster Since the leads were so small, I could even use the normal plastic plug in the nozzle to hold them in place.

    Lots of options to not use sensitive mixtures, flash pan or odd devices for clusters. Taking standard Estes starters and adding NC lacquer with BP or fabric glue and BP seems to be another simple way.
     
  22. Nov 16, 2019 #82

    BDB

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    I’ve always wondered if the igniter could cause a CATO too. Does anyone have any concrete data on this? I have two experiences where I had a hard to light AP motor, so I used an “enhanced” igniter—>boom!
     
  23. Nov 16, 2019 #83

    Ez2cDave

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    I have a theory that this would be far more likely to occur in a Composite motor than a BP motor.

    This is due to the fact that the Convergent Section of the Nozzle is exposed in a Composite motor and could allow something to "cock sideways", momentarily plugging or restricting the Nozzle, resulting in over-pressurization.

    In a BP motor, the Convergent Section is not exposed until after the motor is ignited and burning.

    Dave F.
     
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  24. Nov 16, 2019 #84

    quickburst

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    I've done home brew BP several times with several different methods. I have yet to make anything that is near as fast as BP.

    All in all ...…. Home Brew BP mixed with a flammable binder and an accelerant would probably work very well for dipping Estes Igniters.
     
  25. Nov 16, 2019 #85

    Ez2cDave

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    David,

    If using "home brew BP", how fine should the particles be ?

    Dave
     
  26. Nov 17, 2019 #86

    prfesser

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    My 1/50 of a dollar...

    To enhance Estes starters, the three finely powdered (100 mesh or smaller) materials for BP might simply be screened together three or four times, then just enough alcohol (denatured ethanol or 91% isopropanol rubbing alcohol) added for a dipping consistency.

    Skylighter has some interesting information on making BP for lifting aerial shells: https://www.skylighter.com/blogs/how-to-make-fireworks/red-gum-black-powder

    Best -- Terry
     
  27. Nov 17, 2019 #87

    tOD

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    Made up a few for the next launch opportunity.
     

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  28. Nov 18, 2019 #88

    electricmatch

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    dpower and BDB like this.
  29. Nov 18, 2019 #89

    jsdemar

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    Another option is to use the ProCast dip kit from Quickburst. (BKNO3V). A tiny coat on the Estes igniter is all that's needed. About 1/3rd the pyrogen is needed compared to other concoctions. It will enhance 100's of Estes igniters without increasing the size if the igniter head. (Keep the dip for years and add acetone again later). You could also share the cost of the kit with club members. Or use it to make several mid-power or HPR igniters.

    http://quickburst.net/qb/procast-order-page/
    https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket-Motors/Motor-Starters/ProCast-Mix

    ProCast_pic.JPG
     
  30. Nov 18, 2019 #90

    rharshberger

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    Love the stuff John, I store my BKNO3V in pill bottles as neither the bottle nor the plastic are attacked by the solvent and so adding more acetone is not required as often. I have used my BKNO3V igniters to light all kinds of motors and friends say they will light wet dirt...
     

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