Tell me about staging

[AlSteel]

I've been doing model rocketry on and off since I was kid, but one thing that always confounded me was staging. I never thought I fully took a seat at the rocketry adult table until I had launched (and recovered) a multi-stage rocket. I've done some research, but I'm still a little leery to create a staged rocket because of my fear of it a) failing spectacularly in flight b) heading off into the heavens, never to be seen again c) completely losing the booster.

I'm basically limited to 1000', or maybe 1500' with no wind, a smaller chute and a perfectly straight up launch, flights with my local park (~900' x 900' recovery area). Outside of that I risk landing on trees, rooftops, farm animals, etc.

So hopefully the more experienced here can help answer my questions:

1) Given my field size restrictions, does putting together a multi-stage rocket even make sense? I don't want one so small that I lose sight of it past 100' and the flight is over in a blink or so big that it sails away. If you aren't going for altitude then part of the fun is watching it drop the booster and igniting the second stage. If so...
2) What's a good starter multi-stage rocket given my restrictions? I've got skill at building all levels and prefer to stay away from RTF or simple plastic fin kits. Building it is part of the fun. I'd like to stay with 18mm motors given my field size but if I can get away with 24mm that would be great too.
3) How do you track and recover the booster stage? I've seen smaller, drift recovery rockets just become invisible after a few hundred feet and, with my old eyes, if a smaller rocket goes high enough I can sometimes only see it once the chute deploys. I really don't want to ever lose the booster, because I don't want the local park shutting down rocketry for me littering up the place with rocket parts.

Any info or assistance is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Wallace]

Welcome to the world of staging! (1) Don't worry about it. (2) Start with something small, Estes kit, whatever you like. (3) You will lose parts if you do it enough times. Helps to have another set of eyes on things. Once you realize how cool it is, you'll be hooked..

 

[Wallace]

https://bellevillehobby.com/product...RhA3rcZotRf26iQ5OnOgdURfkKRZa6U4RghoCGvjw_wcB

 

[Wallace]

https://bellevillehobby.com/product...IWkwIcNFj9ZRxu80D2vMwWQlNCjUJkWsJwRoCBEbw_wcB

 

[neil_w]

The key is just use smaller motors. Generally, if you use the smallest recommended motors, the rocket won’t go high at all. In particular, a small booster motor will cause it to stage at a surprisingly low altitude, where you’ll be able to get a good view of the staging and also the booster coming down.

If you go with a two stager with 13mm motors (e.g. Astronaut Elliptic II), it won’t go very high even with the largest motors.

 

[Wallace]

Just a couple of examples. Staging bp motors is absolutely cool and relatively cheap and easy. Just pay specific attention to details such as coupler fits/motor nozzles and such. If you select the correct combinations your field size will not be an issue. Taping bp motors together and seeing it work is very impressive. I've been doing it for a LONG time and it almost always works.

 

[Wallace]

And..You'll soon discover that cardboard rockets having a limited lifespan to begin with, will not be any "happier" with exhaust plumes at close range. . Direct staging does not help in that regard so don't get toooo attached to anything you plan to fly. You're looking at spending a few bucks at most so don't overthink it, Just enjoy..

 

[Wallace]

https://estesrockets.com/product/007248-super-nova/ Lost the sustainer of one of these not long ago but it was a fun flight. I'm way more enamored with 3 stagers though.

 

[mbeels]

Staging is a lot of fun, I'll second the super nova. Do you have the ability to run simulations? Just yesterday I launched a 2 stage, B6 to B6 that went about 300 feet, and the staging was quite low. The booster just plopped down next to the launch pad. So yes, I think staging makes sense for your field.

 

[AlSteel]

https://estesrockets.com/product/007248-super-nova/ Lost the sustainer of one of these not long ago but it was a fun flight. I'm way more enamored with 3 stagers though.

I was literally just looking at this one. It looks like a good combo of simplicity, size, and build to use as my first multistage. Fly on smaller engines to keep from overflying the field.

So how do you select booster vs sustainer motor especially for a first flight? Using this one as an example I'm thinking I'm thinking I'd would just go with A's for both. But later I'm guessing you can "mix it up" with high power boosters and lower power sustainer to achieve certain flight performance characteristics. Example: "A" booster with a "B" or "C" sustainer for a slow lift-off and low booster separation and then "BAM" it takes off for a dramatic ending.

 

[Wayco]

The Estes Mongoose was my first rocket, and with a B6-0/A8-5 you should be able stay below your waiver. Of course, I never flew that combination, so someone else might be able to verify that. What I do know is that even with my C6-0/C6-7 flights, I never lost this rocket. The booster comes off pretty quick, and usually lands within a few yards of the pad, but it does help to have an extra set of eyes. Friction fitting two motors is an acquired talent, but with these smaller motors, it's not a big deal if it comes out.
It is a "plastic finned" rocket though, so it might not be what you are looking for, if so, take a look at my second most favorite two stage rocket:
https://www.apogeerockets.com/Rocket-Kits/Skill-Level-3-Model-Rocket-Kits/Rip-Roar

It's bigger, more expensive and more challenging to build, but with the D12 motor combination, it would only hit about 1000 ft. I built several of these and they all ended up heavier than the advertised weight, especially the two motor cluster booster version...

 

[neil_w]

I was literally just looking at this one. It looks like a good combo of simplicity, size, and build to use as my first multistage. Fly on smaller engines to keep from overflying the field.

So how do you select booster vs sustainer motor especially for a first flight? Using this one as an example I'm thinking I'm thinking I'd would just go with A's for both. But later I'm guessing you can "mix it up" with high power boosters and lower power sustainer to achieve certain flight performance characteristics. Example: "A" booster with a "B" or "C" sustainer for a slow lift-off and low booster separation and then "BAM" it takes off for a dramatic ending.

Stick with recommended engines for the kit. For the SuperNova, smallest engines are B6-0 for the booster and A8-5 for the sustainer. This combination is recommended for first flight.

After that, you have flexibility among the recommended motors, although there are only 6 combinations among the recommended motors. In general, smaller booster motor will cause it to stage lower and slower, which is good for visibility, but not as good for ultimate altitude.

 

[Wallace]

As with any staged rocket you'll be dealing with a lot of initial mass, get'er moving off the rail, after that it's pretty much up to you. Altitude is optional. Assuming you have Open Rocket? Sims are fun, easy and free..

 

[BABAR]

Super nova looks like a good starter.
Go with B6-0 A8-5 first flight.
Wind is your enemy here for two reasons.

The obvious is that the upper stage (aka the Sustainer) will drift. The lower stage ,(aka the Booster) on the B6 will come off almost as soon as it leaves the pad. Have a spotter to keep an eye on it but shouldn't land far from pad.

The not so obvious is that multistage rockets tend to be overstable and often weather clock severely into the wind. On a small field ideally you want winds under 5 mph.

The overstability is particularly bad when you use the smaller engines. So even though I strongly recommend them, hope for low winds.

 

[kyle]

I love my Loadstar II, little R2D2 Lego figures lives in the payload section. Every single fin has broken off at least once, but it still flies great. As others have mentioned, the B6-0 booster keeps staging low. I'd have to check, but I doubt it's ever gone higher than 500'. Now that I've moved east and there's grass to land on, popping fins shouldn't be a problem.

Any of the kits people have mentioned will be great. Once you launch one you'll kick yourself for waiting so long.

 

[mbeels]

The not so obvious is that multistage rockets tend to be overstable and often weather clock severely into the wind. On a small field ideally you want winds under 5 mph.

That's a good point. It is worth considering a longer/larger launch rail, like a 3/16" upgrade if the rocket comes with an 1/8" launch lug. They do have a strong tendency to weather cock.

 

[Jmhepworth]

I did staging when I was 11, using small motors. The booster took it maybe 20 feet before the sustained lit. And then I thought why not put bigger motors in it. Never saw the sustainer again. So keep it small and have fun. Of course it won’t stay that way. You’ll want to put bigger motors in it. I’m now doing high power staging. That really gets complex, with multiple altimeters and a tracker. But it sure is satisfying.

 

[BABAR]

I had the Estes Apogee II as a kid . Basically identical to the current Taser twin with the addition of a clear payload section to make the Apogee II sustainer a couple inches longer.

I went with B6-0, watched the launch, never saw the staging, but saw the sustainer coming down its chute.

For a minute, I couldn’t figure it out? How had the rocket launched (igniter was placed in the booster, I knew THAT), and sustainer deployed WITHOUT staging?

I looked all around the launch pad and there was no sign of the booster. But the sustainer came down under a chute, therefore the sustainer ejection charge must have fired, therefore the sustainer engine must have ignited, therefore staging MUST have occurred. But we didn’t see it, and there was no sign of the booster anywhere around the pad.

Scroll down for the answer.













I said I never saw the staging, and I looked all AROUND the pad for the booster and didn’t see it.


Then I looked ON THE PAD! There, on the pad, on the launch rod, was the booster

It had indeed staged, in fact it staged before it left the rod. Me and my Dad’s yes had followed the sustainer up, didn’t see (or at least didn’t recognize) that staging had already occurred. The booster slid back down the rod back onto the pad (kind of the LAST place you would look for a piece of the rocket you just saw departing the pad!)

 

[gtg738w]

My first 2-stage was an Estes Mongoose. It’s surprisingly easy once you actually get down to it. You can also fly the upper stage by itself. Great way to get started.

 

[Wallace]

Point being, why are you not already attempting it?

 

[solid_fuel]

I am finishing up my first BP 2 stager, I went with the Estes Extreme 12. I will let you know how it goes next month but package says it might fit your height restrictions. Edit: I messed that up Never mind, 1900' on E motors

 

[BABAR]

philosophy on LOW POWER staging:

Answer the question to yourself, WHY are you using staging?

IMO 99% of the time in MODEL rocketry, the reason is either the cool factor and/or the challenge. For MODEL rocketry, if you reeeeaaaaallly wanted more altitude, you’d go minimum diameter single stage with a bigger motor.

This is why I always go with the lowest possible thrust motor on the sustainer. That puppy is already moving at a stable speed at the moment of staging (or at least it better be!). Just on the basis of being a two stage rocket it will get up to an entertaining altitude. Once I have achieved my goal of successfully accomplished staging, my next priority is getting the rocket BACK, not altitude. To me any powder beyond the minimum required for the sustainer means either a longer walk or going home with one fewer rockets.

For SUSTAINER, to me it is similar with an important caveat. If the thrill of the launch is to accomplish successful staging, I like to be able to SEE that happen. For me as a LOW POWER model rocket guy, somewhere between 50 to 150 feet up is great, so from THAT standpoint I like lower thrust engines. the CAVEAT is that, as opposed to the SUSTAINER, which is already up to stable speed when it ignites, the BOOSTER engine has to get BOTH the booster AND the SUSTAINER up to speed. So priority for sustainer is minimum “oomph” to get the whole stack off the rod.

For non-gap or minimum gap motors (the Estes SuperNova is non-gap staging, motors are taped, so long as you have your motors in the right order [the zero delay in the booster, the zero delay in the booster, the zero delay in the booster*] and both nozzles toward the tail**, it is as close to 100% reliable staging as possible) with a lightweight upper stage, you can get by with a B6-0 or C6-0 booster to get the “oomph”. Again, you should do fine with the recommended motors on the SuperNova and and Mongoose. For your field and these rockets, a B6 would be a good first choice. Case 1, you got with a B, maybe you are underwhelmed and can come back next time with a C. Case 2, start with the C and risk losing sustainer and possible even the booster, so possibly there is no “next time.”

With longer gaps (therefor heavier ) or with more complex models, you need to step it up. Estes makes cool rockets, but Estes MIRV is a good example of an underpowered booster, specifically an 18mm booster motor mount that maxes at C6-0 trying to heft a plastic heavy booster section AND three sustainers. if you ever build this one, go VERY light on finishing. Unfortunately there is no way to modify this one for a D.

Ways to step it up (more “oomph” on the booster) include a more powerful motor (going from C to D, which until we get a Q-Jet D6-0 composite means upping from 18mm to 24m) or clustering multiple motors on the booster.

Whatever multistage rocket you start with, I wish you the best! Be warned, challenges after your first successful 2 stage taped rocket include 3 stage, long gap staging and cluster staging..... it goes on and on!

*ask any RSO if he or she has seen someone come to the table with a NON-zero delay motor in the Booster, I am betting he or she will say yes.

** yes,it IS POSSIBLE to put sustainer motor in BACKWARDs, with nozzle FORWARD. It makes for a very unsafe although entertaining flight.

 

[JStarStar]

On LP black powder motors, (first-stage) staging rarely takes place more than 200 feet off the ground, usually considerably lower.

Unless you are building a scale model with a predetermined color scheme, always paint booster stages in glaring high visibility colors.

Also make sure you have one person specifically assigned to track each stage, otherwise everybody follows the top stage and booster stages can get lost.

 

[KennB]

Try a Fliskits Frick-n-Frack. Great for a small field; low, slow flight with lots of action.

 

[JimJarvis50]

My first staged rocket was the Centuri Black Widow. I still drool when I see it. The last flight was not so good, as the sustainer flew off at an angle. I found it core sampled up against a fence. Two-stagers are fun!

Jim

 

[BABAR]

My first staged rocket was the Centuri Black Widow. I still drool when I see it. The last flight was not so good, as the sustainer flew off at an angle. I found it core sampled up against a fence. Two-stagers are fun!

Jim

Did you ever get the booster to glide?

I cloned the Estes Tiger Shark (which I think was THEIR clone of the Black Widow)

Plans here for anyone interested
https://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/eirp_22.htm

I just couldn’t get a good glide on the booster.

 

[BABAR]

Try a Fliskits Frick-n-Frack. Great for a small field; low, slow flight with lots of action.

Great idea, except I think it will be hard to find now the Fliskits has closed.

 

[gtg738w]

Great idea, except I think it will be hard to find now the Fliskits has closed.

Reopened! Ray actually flew a Frick-n-Frack a couple weeks ago at our May launch. Lots of fun. They are available on the new site:

https://www.fliskits.com/WPRESS/product/frick-n-frack/

 

[BABAR]

Reopened! Ray actually flew a Frick-n-Frack a couple weeks ago at our May launch. Lots of fun. They are available on the new site:

https://www.fliskits.com/WPRESS/product/frick-n-frack/

Great news!

 

[DaveW6DPS]

Estes Mongoose is probably the easiest place to start. The Loadstar is a good next step.

Mongoose on a B6-0/B6-6 should be good to go, especially on a calm day. Even on C6 motors it probably won't exceed 1500 feet.