Tall Rockets

[DaveCombs]

I'm considering tall rockets for my Scout Troop's annual build/fly. I'm excluding the Richter Recker (sorry, Jim) because I'd kinda like to stay away from clusters - it will keep the cost per flight down. I'd like ones in the 5' and taller range. 24mm composite power (E-15 etc.) is OK.

Ones that I know of:

Estes Mean Machine
Custom Equinox
Sunward CFX-Six Footer
FlisKits Decaffeinator

I saw that Semroc had a few they're wanting to release (ThunderStorm, ThunderRoc) but they don't appear to be available yet.

Anything interesting I'm missing?

 

[Multi-Stage]

I know it doesn't meet your height requirments but the Dyna Star Grappler is a tall fat rocket.

 

[MarkII]

There is also the ASP Tall Boy (over 10 feet long in its longest configuration) and the Cygnus 76er.

Even though it is 10" shorter than your standard, the LOC Legacy looks like it could be a real nice option.

Another 5-foot plus model is the American Alliance NB6 Phylogeny, but it takes 18mm engines, not 24mm.

The Rocket In A Box Boy Scout II might also meet your needs quite nicely, too. (EDIT: Oh, wait - it's a two-motor cluster.) Maybe the Boy Scout I, then, even though it's a little shorter.

Mark \\.

 

[DaveCombs]

The NB6 is interesting. (3 sets of fins = COOL!) What I found kinda strange is that the M5 Mega Menace is a little taller at 7', with 2x24mm mounts, but it's $90!!! How does that happen?

And all of the Rocket-in-a-Box models look cool as well.

Good links!

 

[georgegassaway]

Consider making your own.

Below are two pics of my "Star Spangled Bird", built from BT-80 (Later also kitted by North Coast, upgraded for G power, but they used HPR parts that added so much mass that my BT-80 could fly better on an F than theirs on a G).

I use it a lot for demo flying (when field size and wind allows), or for display. In the pic at left, it was on a local morning TV show promoting our annual "Blast Off" launch.

Simply get two 34" BT-80 type tubes from a vendor such as BMS. And a nose cone. If you really wanted to make one looking like this, the nose was the one used for the Phoenix missile, more recently used for the "Canadian Arrow", which was a V-2 clone. It would fly nicely on an E15, or an E18. Also on an F25, but nothing beyond that as it might shred. One could build it stronger to hold up to say an F50, but then that would be going down the road of the NCR kit, there is no point in making a heavier rocket just to use a higher thrust engine that is overkill, which then costs more to fly for less performance.

Anyway, also take note of how it ejects in the middle. Because the main body is only about 36" long. There is no need to have the whole long bird glued together, makes transport difficult. Maybe you even already have a 30-36" E powered model that you could add another 3 feet or so to? Or maybe there is some kit that could be extended. If the Max-Alpha was still around, slam-dunk, just extend it. Indeed even Estes had a stretched Maxi-Alpha around 1979 or so, do not recall the name of it.

- George Gassaway

 

[DaveCombs]

Scratch-build is ALWAYS a possibilty. Thanks, George! And I do like the way you positioned the two chutes to prevent the airframe halves from banging into each other. It's a cleaner way than sending down the two halves separately.

 

[MarkII]

Consider making your own....

Or making your own clone!

Indeed even Estes had a stretched Maxi-Alpha around 1979 or so, do not recall the name of it.

- George Gassaway

The Colossus resembled a stretched Maxi Alpha III.

Mark \\.

 

[georgegassaway]

>>>>
And I do like the way you positioned the two chutes to prevent the airframe halves from banging into each other. It's a cleaner way than sending down the two halves separately.
<<<<<

I call it “semi-drogue”. Came up with it after a string of frustrating recovery problems with a Sandhawk. The main body had a chute, the nose section had a chute, no cord connecting the main and nose, separate chutes. The main body’s chute jammed inside the tube, while the nose section deployed fine and just merrily wafted its way down, almost mocking the crash of the rest of the model.

So I got to thinking if only there had been a shock cord between the two. And then, to pack in the chute for the nose section last, packed so it was a loose fit. So if the nose came off at all, it would bring out the chute for the nose section. So if the main failed, at least the bird would come down on “a” chute, even if it would land faster than normal. And also, if the main chute was packed so it could slide loosely enough, if it failed to get ejected out, the small chute could act like a drogue to yank the main chute out.

Never had a recovery crash due to chutes since, when using that system. And I’m talking around 1981 here, a long time. OK, I am not counting things a broken shock cord, chute shreds from way too fast deployment velocity, or engine ejection charge failures.

Another side benefit, as you noted is that the air spillage from the chutes helps to make them pull away from each other. I will attach another example, one of my Little Joe-II flights with two mains and an 18” Estes semi-drogue on the capsule=. BTW - I normally would have had those two main chute using about 6 feet of their own 1/4” elastic, as a “Y” bridle, and not both tied together as in that pic, but some of the 1/4” elastic I had was bad so I only went with what I knew to be good.

Also, two pics of an HPR model by BRB member Blake Driskill. He uses the semi-drogue method too.

- Gorge Gassaway

 

[Gillard]

a rocket over 6 foot is

Das Modell - Hummel

this is a terrible rocket, really weak parts and quite expensive
stay clear of it.

 

[sandman]

a rocket over 6 foot is

Das Modell - Hummel

this is a terrible rocket, really weak parts and quite expensive
stay clear of it.

That can be said of pretty much all of what "Das Modell" produces.

 

[georgegassaway]

The Colossus resembled a stretched Maxi Alpha III.

Ah, yes, that was it. The Colossus was a Maxi-Alpha-III with extra tubing and different decals.

There are so many kits and plans that could be "Collosus-ized" (tm 2009) in a similar way, just add some extra tubing. And perhaps as I did with my Star Spangled bird (and others), have it sep in the middle so it is not as hard to transport.

BTW - the concept can keep going and going. In the early 1980's, I made an F Superroc Duration model based on BT-80, with four D12's clustered. The main body was not even 36" long. The upper section was about 3.5 or 4 feet. I cannibalized the upper section long ago. But, I got out the main body 2 years ago, and added four 34" sections of BT-80, to make it a bit over 15 feet tall. Part of the inspiration for it was to use it as a proof of concept for an all black powder powered "G Superroc" model, since NARAM-49 had that event. Flew it on two E9's and two D12's in a cluster, and it flew very nicely. Our team had a much better model to use for NARAM, so it was partly for fun but also partly to recommend one way to do a 15 foot rocket.

As seen in the photos below, you can tell where the four sections join each other by the black tape around the joints to keep them secure for flight. And the main body is painted yellow with black fins. So, even at 15 feet, no part of it is more than about 38-39" long (counting the couplers, only the lowermost of which was glued to a tube).

Heck, a person could make their own "Mean Bertha Machine" too. Upgrade a Big Bertha to a 24mm mount, then add extra BT-60 tubing to make it 6 feet tall or taller.

- George Gassaway

 

[MarkII]

Just as the Colossus was essentially a lengthened Maxi Alpha III, I think of the Optima (and its twin, the Shadow) as sort of a lengthened Maxi Alpha. "Sort of" because it has different fins.

And the current Executioner is a Maxi Alpha with plywood TTW fins and a different paint scheme.

Estes Industries made a number of long, thin rockets in the 1970's and 1980's, and these should be quite easy to clone. Most were in the 3.5 foot to 4.5 foot range in length, but another 5 footer (well, almost) was the Cobra 1500. A practically identical rocket, with slightly different fins and decor, was the Custom Engage. Either one of these is ridiculously easy to clone. Both models originally took 18mm engines, but you could just build them with 24mm mounts instead, and I don't thing that they would even need nose weight with that mount.

Centuri's Thunder Roc, which you already mentioned, shouldn't be too hard to clone, either, except that I can't figure out if the original was kitted with Centuri's parts or with Estes parts. Does anyone know? You would also need to find someone to make decals for it, if you wanted to have them. It is a little bit shorter than 5 feet in length, but it is still a cool-looking design, clean and straightforward.

Mark \\.

 

[ga1ba2]

Estes Mean Machine Easy to build, not too expensive and flies well on a D or E BP engine which also keeps the cost down.

 

[CharlaineC]

dont forget the fliskits corona its a beauty and the booster is great as well

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

If the Max-Alpha was still around, slam-dunk, just extend it. Indeed even Estes had a stretched Maxi-Alpha around 1979 or so, do not recall the name of it.

I think the Maxi Alpha 3 is available now on Estes website. I am actually really interested in the idea of building and extending this rocket like you suggested.

 

[chrism]

Just as the Colossus was essentially a lengthened Maxi Alpha III, I think of the Optima (and its twin, the Shadow) as sort of a lengthened Maxi Alpha. "Sort of" because it has different fins.

And the current Executioner is a Maxi Alpha with plywood TTW fins and a different paint scheme.

Estes Industries made a number of long, thin rockets in the 1970's and 1980's, and these should be quite easy to clone. Most were in the 3.5 foot to 4.5 foot range in length, but another 5 footer (well, almost) was the Cobra 1500. A practically identical rocket, with slightly different fins and decor, was the Custom Engage. Either one of these is ridiculously easy to clone. Both models originally took 18mm engines, but you could just build them with 24mm mounts instead, and I don't thing that they would even need nose weight with that mount.

Centuri's Thunder Roc, which you already mentioned, shouldn't be too hard to clone, either, except that I can't figure out if the original was kitted with Centuri's parts or with Estes parts. Does anyone know? You would also need to find someone to make decals for it, if you wanted to have them. It is a little bit shorter than 5 feet in length, but it is still a cool-looking design, clean and straightforward.

Mark \\.

The Thunder-Roc used Estes parts.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

When you set up something like this for a one-off demonstration, do you attach an extra long shock cord to the loop on the nosecone and then run it down through all the extra segments and connect it to the recovery system that is attached to the main body? Or is the upper end of the shock cord attached to one of the added tube segments? I have a few kits that I built according to the instructions, and I don't really want to permanently modify them. But I am interested in setting up a longer rocket like you described on a temporary basis. Currently the shock cords are tied or glued into place at both ends. I'd like to have the option to quickly and easily add in an extra segment (or two, or three) in the field if I wanted to. Any suggestions on how to set it up so I could quickly change the recovery system for each configuration?

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Estes has a short, but fat (3" diameter) rocket they call Big Daddy that looks like it might be cool to modify by adding extra tube segments. However, it does not look like Estes actually sells 3" body tubes. What are they building this thing out of and where can you get more tubes?

 

[gpoehlein]

Estes has a short, but fat (3" diameter) rocket they call Big Daddy that looks like it might be cool to modify by adding extra tube segments. However, it does not look like Estes actually sells 3" body tubes. What are they building this thing out of and where can you get more tubes?

Actually, that pretty much describes the Leviathan - a Big Daddy with an extra length of body tube and a 29mm motor mount. If you wanted to lengthen a Big Daddy, you can get 3" diameter body tubes and coupler stock from Balsa Machining Services.

You could also make a really cool long rocket with two lengths of BT-60 and any of the three PNC-60 nose cones that Estes sells. I think the nose from the Patriot or Stormcaster would look good. Two lengths of BT-60 would be 36", with about 5" for the nose cone that gives a 1:24 diameter to length ratio. You could get a second nose cone and motor mount and make two of these from a Mean Machine.

 

[JAL3]

There is also the ASP Tall Boy (over 10 feet long in its longest configuration) and the Cygnus 76er.

Even though it is 10" shorter than your standard, the LOC Legacy looks like it could be a real nice option.

Another 5-foot plus model is the American Alliance NB6 Phylogeny, but it takes 18mm engines, not 24mm.

The Rocket In A Box Boy Scout II might also meet your needs quite nicely, too. (EDIT: Oh, wait - it's a two-motor cluster.) Maybe the Boy Scout I, then, even though it's a little shorter.

Mark \\.

Last I heard, American Alliance was defunct. Are they back up again?

 

[86mustang408w]

I'm scratch building one now that's almost 5' tall. Just got some fin material today, you think about anything like that? Like they said the bottom of the leviathan is the big daddy, cones are the same too. I wish I knew I would have just bought a 3" tube/coupler and another big daddy kit and saved quite a few bucks.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Actually, that pretty much describes the Leviathan - a Big Daddy with an extra length of body tube and a 29mm motor mount. If you wanted to lengthen a Big Daddy, you can get 3" diameter body tubes and coupler stock from Balsa Machining Services.

You could also make a really cool long rocket with two lengths of BT-60 and any of the three PNC-60 nose cones that Estes sells. I think the nose from the Patriot or Stormcaster would look good. Two lengths of BT-60 would be 36", with about 5" for the nose cone that gives a 1:24 diameter to length ratio. You could get a second nose cone and motor mount and make two of these from a Mean Machine.

Thanks for the info on both the Leviathan and Balsa Machining Services. I looked up the Leviathan, and it looks like a very cool rocket! I'm not quite ready to step up to F engines.

I've actually been out of this hobby for years and recently got back in when I got a nephew a kit for his birthday. We had a great time shooting off his rocket, so I dug around in the garage for my old gear. The one intact rocket I found is something I think may have been called the Army Hawk, powered by standard B and C engines. I'm thinking of experimentally extending the length of this one by temporarily adding in an extra body tube segment, just to see how it compares to launching it in the normal configuration.

I also found a unbuilt kit for something called the Silver Comet --- sort of a Buck Rogers 1950's Sci-Fi looking thing (a "Retro Rocket," if you will). It uses D engines, and it's built out of a BT-80 tube. It looks like I also have a few extra segments of BT-80 and a coupler. I'm thinking of also building this one and experimentally extending it too.

Maybe once I've done that I'll think of going big and buying one of the E engine kits or an F like the Leviathan. It definitely seems like there are a lot more sources for more advanced and more powerful rockets than I remember!

 

[krusty]

Thanks for the info on both the Leviathan and Balsa Machining Services. I looked up the Leviathan, and it looks like a very cool rocket! I'm not quite ready to step up to F engines.

I've actually been out of this hobby for years and recently got back in when I got a nephew a kit for his birthday. We had a great time shooting off his rocket, so I dug around in the garage for my old gear. The one intact rocket I found is something I think may have been called the Army Hawk, powered by standard B and C engines. I'm thinking of experimentally extending the length of this one by temporarily adding in an extra body tube segment, just to see how it compares to launching it in the normal configuration.

I also found a unbuilt kit for something called the Silver Comet --- sort of a Buck Rogers 1950's Sci-Fi looking thing (a "Retro Rocket," if you will). It uses D engines, and it's built out of a BT-80 tube. It looks like I also have a few extra segments of BT-80 and a coupler. I'm thinking of also building this one and experimentally extending it too.

Maybe once I've done that I'll think of going big and buying one of the E engine kits or an F like the Leviathan. It definitely seems like there are a lot more sources for more advanced and more powerful rockets than I remember!

Welcome back to the hobby!

I think the range and size of both motors an kits, as well as the accessability of parts for scratch-building your own designs, will blow you away

If you haven't done so already, see if you can find a club in your local area. But most of all, have fun!!

Krusty

 

[gpoehlein]

Thanks for the info on both the Leviathan and Balsa Machining Services. I looked up the Leviathan, and it looks like a very cool rocket! I'm not quite ready to step up to F engines.

Well, one alternative would be replacing the 29mm motor mount with a 3x24mm mount. You can use that in a Big Daddy as well. BMS carries pre-cut centering rings in both plywood and fiberboard. Three E-9 motors is the equivalent to a small G, and really rocks! Of course, you can also use three D12s (small F) or even three C11s (small E) with spacers. Oh, and according to John Boren (designer at Estes), the Leviathan will fly on the new 29mm F16 black powder motors that have just been certified by NAR.

 

[caveduck]

Don't forget the classic plan for the Grumpy Dog!! https://plans.rocketshoppe.com/narts/SP101_GrumpyDog.pdf Estes parts, 7 ft+ and flies with a couple of D's, or convert to blackpowder E's for more grump.

 

[foamy]

https://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/RocketKits.asp?SKU=KA-16

Semroc's Thunder Strike is a good looking, easy to build tall rocket at almost 51."

Fly's on D's. It's tall enough to be impressive, but not so tall as to become a problem with transport or keeping it straight.

I'm working on one now and am quite pleased with the kit quality. Not to mention if you should have any problems—Semroc will make it right and quick. Easy to paint as well.

 

[samb]

... I also found a unbuilt kit for something called the Silver Comet --- sort of a Buck Rogers 1950's Sci-Fi looking thing (a "Retro Rocket," if you will). It uses D engines, and it's built out of a BT-80 tube. It looks like I also have a few extra segments of BT-80 and a coupler. I'm thinking of also building this one and experimentally extending it too.
...

Welcome back. That Silver Comet is a nice , somewhat hard to find, OOP kit. Essentially, a V2 airframe with the sci-fi fins and a little extra embossed bling on the nose cone. I say build, fly and enjoy !




To the OP - sorry for the hijack. I have a Mean Machine and I like it but I think it will have better longevity with longer tube couplers.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Welcome back. That Silver Comet is a nice , somewhat hard to find, OOP kit. Essentially, a V2 airframe with the sci-fi fins and a little extra embossed bling on the nose cone. I say build, fly and enjoy !

View attachment 117823

That is the exact kit I have. I don't even remember when I bought it. I plan to do exactly as you said: Build, Fly, Enjoy!

 

[paul.nortness]

Holy Thread Resurrection Batman!

 

[jflis]

Dave,

I've done a number of classes with the Decaffeinator with great success. If interested, drop me a line and I can give you a bulk pack quote to consider.

Good luck!
Jim