SWAT standoff next door this morning...

[luke strawwalker]

Well I was going to sleep in this morning until the phone started ringing off the hook... When Betty left for work this morning (to take Keira to school and then off to the school she works at) she found the road blocked by a large number of police and sheriff's cars and a fire truck and other emergency vehicles. She stopped and asked what was going on but they wouldn't tell her. My brother Jason and his wife left for work at the county drainage district, and passed a SWAT armored vehicle coming out on their way into town...

They were calling me to tell me they left the back door unlocked and wondering what was going on, and to let me know the SWAT team was on the way out. Later after Jason got to work, he found out from a buddy who'd gotten a call that there was some sort of suicide standoff... Betty saw only one car with its light bar on-- a sheriff's car at the old farmhouse next door that used to belong to my grandmother's sister before she passed away. Apparently whomever is living there now (the property still belongs to my Dad's cousin but there's a lot of different folks living around there now) went bonkers and was suicidal and holding the police at bay with some sort of weapon(s)... I went out and sat on the end of the porch with the binoculars for awhile and watched the show... I watched the SWAT team get a briefing and orders apparently and then hold up a dry erase board to go over their strategy before the climbed onto the sides and back of the armored vehicle and moved up to the small farmhouse a couple hundred yards away. Then they got on the loudspeakers or bullhorn and tried to talk the guy out... I went inside for the camera and apparently they moved around to the other side of the house... took pics. There were about 10 units and SUV's, along with a fire truck and EMS truck on the road in front of the house, and apparently the road was shut down for awhile. There was also a white transport van ("bread truck" style van) that they had apparently transported the team out in. Lot of AR's visible through the binoculars...

Anyway, I guess it's all over now... they were packing it in a little while ago...

later! OL JR

 

[Creeps]

Here's hoping everything goes off well.

 

[VonMises]

Well, with any luck they got the right address.

So what's SWAT supposed to do? Shoot the guy to keep him from shooting himself? Overreaction?

 

[luke strawwalker]

Well, with any luck they got the right address.

So what's SWAT supposed to do? Shoot the guy to keep him from shooting himself? Overreaction?

I dunno... don't know if he shot at the sheriff's deputy or what... didn't hear anything but then we're about maybe 1/8 mile away across the pasture (on our side of the fence) and farm fields (on their side).

They moved up with the shield (bulletproof door on top of the armored vehicle) up and at least (as far as I could count through the binoculars) ten SWAT officers inside/on the backside running boards as the armored vehicle moved up toward the house... I guess they're not taking any chances...

Some folks decide to commit "suicide by cop" and charge out armed and maybe shooting... if they take someone else with them, they don't particularly care. Cops not looking to shoot anybody but not taking chances either, not looking to get shot, so I guess the AR's are there to make sure... I know when I was in the academy, the prevailing feeling was "better them than me", IOW, if somebody's gotta take a bullet to solve the situation, better whomever is instigating the situation than a cop... can't say I blame them.

Guess it's all over now, because they've packed up and left...

Emailed some pics and stuff to the local Houston TV stations, and had a couple of them email me back to say that the spokeman for the sheriff's dept. confirmed that they were facing a suicidal person in a standoff... other than that, nothing... Just watched the midday news and nothing-- guess they didn't even care to report on it.

Later! OL JR

 

[GregGleason]

JR, if you ever become a news reporter, I'll watch you. You say what you see and say what you think. Oh wait, that's what the news used to be.

Regardless, hopefully the guy will get some help and that none of the first responders were hurt and get to hug their family members tonight.

For those of you who don't know, Needville is a small Texas town. And typically, not much happens in small Texas towns. Especially on the outskirts.

Greg

 

[Derek]

Needville and Shiner don't happen to be near Waco?

 

[ClayD]

Well, with any luck they got the right address.

So what's SWAT supposed to do? Shoot the guy to keep him from shooting himself? Overreaction?

Several years back a sheriff down the road from me had PTSD, and was getting older and dementia was setting in. He went bonkers one day and shot up his house. they took all his firearms, and such..... About 2 weeks went by and at 1:00 am, i got woken up with a bomb containment trailer being parked in my front lawn. ( i had a large lawn.) i watch the robot place a device in the containment and drive it off....

Come to find out it was a shotgun shell with a "detonating" device (mouse trap and nail) attached to it.

It was all very sad. But yes, it is probably all overeaction, and I can understand it. They have to get control of the situation, and treat it like its the most important thing in the world. Cause, sometimes, it just might be.....

 

[Cl(VII)]

I can understand calling SWAT in order to protect the police and EMS who are trying to talk the guy into a peaceful surrender. Kind of: we'll try to talk the guy out, but lets minimize the chance that if he decides to start shooting that any of us get hurt. SWAT would definately provide extra reassurance to the police doing the talking and the (unarmed?) EMS workers standing by.

 

[Tronman]

Assuming the person inside has a gun, it doesn't seem like such a good idea to park next to a propane tank.

Reminds me of a standoff in town a few years ago. Main Street was blocked off because a guy living on a side street had killed his wife. The police had a report of a disturbance, so one lone officer went to the door and the guy calmly let him in and told him there was no problem. Then as the officer turned his back, the guy shot him dead. The swat team eventually showed up with a tank and some other heavy vehicles and waited for quite a while before charging the house, only to find that the guy had killed himself. That was a sad day in our town.

 

[tightwad]

I hate to say this, but, this country's Fire, Police and EMS are wholly untrained in dealing with mental health individuals. Over reaction is very common, along with saying the wrong words and improper use of body language. By body landuage, I mean the Officer standing there with his/her hand on their weapon, the EMT standing/blocking the individuals movements or trying to touch the individual. Yes, safety of yourself and others are important, but this can be done in a manner that does not give the individual the sense of being threatened.

I have just completed a 16 hour course on mental health, as part of my EMT training, which was developed in Austrailia. After 28 years of law enforcement and now doing Firefighter/EMT responses my eye were opened to all the wrong approaches that I had been trained to do when confronting a mental health individual. Yes, I said confronting, but after this class all those techniques were flushed down the toilet and had I had this class earlier maybe my neace's husband would still be with us.

If you get the chance please take this course, it is called Mental Health First Aid. You just may save a life.

 

[Derek]

Assuming the person inside has a gun, it doesn't seem like such a good idea to park next to a propane tank.

ha! I missed that. They would be goners if Jack Bauer was in that house.

 

[VonMises]

While I empathize with the position that everyone wants’ to go home, overwhelming force is not always the best answer. Sometimes it isn’t necessary to escalate a situation and SWAT is not known for it ability to de-fuse a situation.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Well, having been trained as a peace officer, I can say honestly IMHO better to overreact than underreact. Underreactions usually end up with folks getting killed.

We saw videos in training of what can happen when folks screw up, and it's usually not pretty. While attempting to "talk down" folks who are mentally screwed up is all well and good, taking foolish chances is never a good idea, especially if no other lives are at risk-- the first responder should be prepared to defend his/her own life, even if that means using deadly force the mentally disturbed person. It's sad, but sometimes necessary. The equations change a bit if other lives are at stake...

No information is available-- the news didn't cover it. I suppose it ended as well as it could, since they wrapped up and left fairly quickly. Had it ended worse I'd tend to think that there would be a lot longer investigation and wrap-up if things had really gone south.

Sounds like there's some good training available. Hope it becomes more available to more first responders.

Later! OL JR :0

 

[Scotty Dog]

Crazy! We see it everyday in the news, but it sure is different when this happens in your back yard.
We had an escape a few years back from the prison down the road..had all kinds of action that night around here.
The site and sound of the helli hovering over my back field with search light was a bit spine chilling.

Ild be interested in what set the guy off.

 

[VonMises]

What we don’t hear about is the increasing instances where the use of force is shockingly excessive and innocent people are murdered with impunity by police.

There’s no doubt who controls the level of force and the application of violence. So what’s wrong with backing off? What’s wrong with de-escalation?

Sorry, I don’t trust the police. I know several; I call one friend. The others shouldn’t have the authority to use force on behalf of the county or state. It appears those we called “keepers of the peace” are increasiongly interested only in enforcement. There is a difference.

 

[tmacklin]

How to protect and serve in Dallas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiS4JQF90js

 

[shrox]

What we don’t hear about is the increasing instances where the use of force is shockingly excessive and innocent people are murdered with impunity by police.

There’s no doubt who controls the level of force and the application of violence. So what’s wrong with backing off? What’s wrong with de-escalation?

Sorry, I don’t trust the police. I know several; I call one friend. The others shouldn’t have the authority to use force on behalf of the county or state. It appears those we called “keepers of the peace” are increasiongly interested only in enforcement. There is a difference.

Cops are bad, police officers are good. There is a difference, just like there is a difference between cooks and chefs, writers and authors, and pilots and aviators. Pudknockers and astronauts too...

 

[dward]

Assuming the person inside has a gun, it doesn't seem like such a good idea to park next to a propane tank.

Reminds me of a standoff in town a few years ago. Main Street was blocked off because a guy living on a side street had killed his wife. The police had a report of a disturbance, so one lone officer went to the door and the guy calmly let him in and told him there was no problem. Then as the officer turned his back, the guy shot him dead. The swat team eventually showed up with a tank and some other heavy vehicles and waited for quite a while before charging the house, only to find that the guy had killed himself. That was a sad day in our town.

That's the first thing I noticed. Not the brightest lamps on the street--or pasture, I guess.

 

[Reinhard]

Don't expect small weapons fire to ignite a propane tank. Here is a Mythbusters (non-)example:
https://science.howstuffworks.com/33060-mythbusters-exploding-propane-tank-video.htm


Reinhard

 

[Tronman]

Don't expect small weapons fire to ignite a propane tank. Here is a Mythbusters (non-)example:
https://science.howstuffworks.com/33060-mythbusters-exploding-propane-tank-video.htm


Reinhard

I stand corrected. Still, I'd just as soon not be inhaling propane fumes during a standoff.

 

[VonMises]

Cops are bad, police officers are good. There is a difference, just like there is a difference between cooks and chefs, writers and authors, and pilots and aviators. Pudknockers and astronauts too...

We're on the same page, just using different terms.

 

[dward]

Don't expect small weapons fire to ignite a propane tank. Here is a Mythbusters (non-)example:
https://science.howstuffworks.com/33060-mythbusters-exploding-propane-tank-video.htm


Reinhard

The probability of a tree or open air exploding is much less than that of a propane tank. Its about risk assessment. Explosion is just one risk factor for a propane tank. The more significant risk is ricochet from the metal hull. A 12 gauge shot gun aimed just right would create a massive debris field.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Crazy! We see it everyday in the news, but it sure is different when this happens in your back yard.
We had an escape a few years back from the prison down the road..had all kinds of action that night around here.
The site and sound of the helli hovering over my back field with search light was a bit spine chilling.

Ild be interested in what set the guy off.

Yeah, we had some escapees running around out here a year or two ago... cops running EVERYWHERE... finally found out what they were up to, so I got my 9mm and searched the barns and shop, checked the cars, etc. before Betty went to work... got to practice my building search procedures...

They finally found them hiding in a cotton patch about a mile away...

As for what set him off?? Who knows... that bunch over the fence are nutty as fruitcakes anyway, and I that younger generation is a bunch of alcoholics and probably on dope... wouldn't be surprised... I think it was that nutjob young redneck over there constantly racing up and down the road and doing other stupid stuff... he's gonna get himself killed sooner or later anyway with his idiotic stunts... Oh well...

Later! OL JR

 

[himitsu]

How to protect and serve in Dallas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiS4JQF90js

Wow!

 

[luke strawwalker]

What we don’t hear about is the increasing instances where the use of force is shockingly excessive and innocent people are murdered with impunity by police.

There’s no doubt who controls the level of force and the application of violence. So what’s wrong with backing off? What’s wrong with de-escalation?

Sorry, I don’t trust the police. I know several; I call one friend. The others shouldn’t have the authority to use force on behalf of the county or state. It appears those we called “keepers of the peace” are increasiongly interested only in enforcement. There is a difference.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about... went through the academy with some like that, and it makes me cringe to think about what some of them might be up to...

I had an instructor in the academy who'd taken a bullet at some point to the side of the head-- had a glass eye and his cheekbone had been destroyed and reconstructed, and it wasn't quite right (if you know what I mean)... he taught us building search procedures and stuff and one day on a break he told me straight out, "some night at 3 am you'll get called to a drugstore that's been broken into, and you'll be tiptoeing through there with you pistol out, trying to find the junkie that you KNOW is in there, probably armed, hiding in the dark somewhere, probably with a gun pointed at you, and you'll be LESS WORRIED ABOUT HIM than you are of the COP BEHIND YOU!!" That sorta gets your attention, don't it!

Still, while I agree that there are some really aggregious examples of excessive use of force (and that sort of thing should be prosecuted FAR more vigorously than it is IMHO) it pretty much boils down to this-- if the cops don't handle it, somebody else will... nutcase comes over this way and presents a threat he'll be dropped, period...

I think they did the right thing-- "backed off" (obviously a uniformed officer had been dispatched to the house and had been threatened with a gun or whatever and had pulled out-- that was the only car with lights on when Betty left for work-- the rest were creating a perimeter). Then they called in SWAT to handle it... They didn't kick the door down or blow the windows out and go in AK's blazing... they didn't send in a tank and spray accelerant into the place like at Waco... they just talked the guy out and stood ready in case he decided to come running out guns blazing and go out via "suicide by cop" (which can and does happen, believe me!)

I think they did a good job... Later! OL JR

 

[luke strawwalker]

How to protect and serve in Dallas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiS4JQF90js

Guy had a knife... that makes a big difference. He stood up and was obviously in a confrontational posture with the officers. In the academy, they showed us videos where officers were stabbed or killed by assailants with knives... most people don't know this (many officers don't even know it) but if someone with a knife is within 21 feet of you, they can run over and stab or kill you before you can get your gun out of your holster and fire at them point-blank. Plus, a knife, in close quarters, is actually MUCH more dangerous than a gun. In hand to hand combat, a gun can be grabbed, pushed aside, twisted from the assailant's grip, heck even just push the barrel in a different direction-- a gun is only lethal in ONE DIRECTION (wherever the barrel is pointing), but a KNIFE is dangerous in any direction-- it can be used to slash, stab, on the forward or back stroke, and is very difficult or impossible to twist from an assailant's grip due to the fact that the only exposed part is the blade-- HE (or she) has the HANDLE! Heck, if you're good at such things, you can snatch the barrel and slide clean off some semiautomatics, and if you pinch a revolver, it cannot fire (unless it's single-action or already cocked-- and if you can grasp the gun to prevent the hammer from being pulled back or being pushed back by a trigger pull, or slap the web of your thumb down between the hammer and the pistol frame when the trigger is pulled, you can prevent it from firing and keep it from going off no matter how many times the trigger is pulled... With a knife, not so much...

Now, this video is a classic case where the officers should have backed off and taken a more protective stance. I agree that the officers shouldn't have shot unless/until this guy decided to advance on them-- if he started running towards them-- give him the old double-tap and drop him-- I don't have a problem with that... but standing there holding a knife and giving you lip-- not so much. Even if he started walking towards them and was warned to stop a time or two-- and kept advancing-- drop him. But that's not what happened. IMHO there was no reason to shoot this guy in this particular circumstance... but then again, I wasn't there... and video doesn't show everything, believe it or not... I can speak to that from experience as a bus driver...

Doesn't matter what job it is, there's good folks and bad folks in ALL jobs... some folks just don't need to be doing whatever it is they're doing, but it's a fact of life that they're there...

Later! OL JR

 

[chadrog]

So you SHOULD bring a knife to a gun fight? Interesting...

 

[himitsu]

Guy had a knife... that makes a big difference. He stood up and was obviously in a confrontational posture with the officers.

Obviously confrontational? He backed away from the police. The officers advanced on him. He stood up, but his hands remained at his sides. When he stood up, one officer clearly drew his weapon, and then fired seconds later. He doesn't look obviously confrontational to me (unless you mean the officer). We can't hear what's going on, but we can see what's going on (even if it is quite grainy). I'm sorry, but your explanation does not match the video. Plus, apparently, Police Chief David Brown didn't agree with you either, because the officer was fired, and charged.

"Officers are not above the law," Brown said during a news conference. "We as a police department are not going to look the other way. We are not going to sweep officer misconduct under the rug. Officer actions must be reasonable and necessary."

 

[luke strawwalker]

Obviously confrontational? He backed away from the police. The officers advanced on him. He stood up, but his hands remained at his sides. When he stood up, one officer clearly drew his weapon, and then fired seconds later. He doesn't look obviously confrontational to me (unless you mean the officer). We can't hear what's going on, but we can see what's going on (even if it is quite grainy). I'm sorry, but your narrative does not match the video. Plus, apparently, Police Chief David Brown didn't agree with you either, because the officer was fired, and charged.

"Officers are not above the law," Brown said during a news conference. "We as a police department are not going to look the other way. We are not going to sweep officer misconduct under the rug. Officer actions must be reasonable and necessary."

He rolled back in the chair, true enough... then he got up and took a confrontational type of stance... his hands were at his side, but then he raised them in front of him as if passing something from one hand to the other. So yeah, he could have been brandishing something that we couldn't see since his back was to the camera. There's NOTHING wrong with the officer's drawing their weapons and pointing them at him at this point.

The PROBLEM is, that the officers should have disengaged-- backed off slowly in a tactical manner while still keeping the guy covered. They didn't do that. Instead they engaged without apparent cause. The guy hadn't escalated-- he was still standing there, and the officers escalated and engaged and shot him. Not smart. Not cool either. So yeah, for whatever reason (maybe they were scared, but being scared isn't enough call to gun someone down unless you feel in IMMINENT danger of losing your life, IE someone CHARGING AT YOU with a knife or gun). But then, there are a lot of cowards in uniform too-- it's not a superman cape that makes you invincible and it certainly doesn't make a fraidy cat into a steely-eyed hero... Either someone's got the guts to face such a situation and keep their cool and act sensibly, or they don't... and there are a lot that don't...

I'm not saying these cops were in the right... I'm saying that the guy in the chair did some stupid stuff that set off a poorly trained or sorry excuse for a policeman and got himself killed for his trouble... True enough we can't hear what's going on, but if the guy jumped up out of the chair, raised his hands to his chest and brandished a knife and said "come and get me, tough guys" or something to that effect, I'd say he's probably got about a 50-50 chance of getting shot, yeah... Right or wrong, it's a little late to cry about it once it's over with...

There's a LOT of crap that goes on that is brushed off as "oh, he was mentally ill/disturbed/distressed at the time and they shouldn't have shot/tazed/pepper sprayed/took him down like that..." I know when I was in training, and the guys I worked with during my internship, it doesn't really matter WHY someone points a gun or knife at you or starts running toward you to attack you-- if you worry about that you end up dead... the important thing at that moment is to get them to STOP what they are doing or about to do, and if that means deadly force, so be it... hand wringing will get you killed. If the other person doesn't want to suffer the consequences, they should STOP and obey the officer. Another thing most people don't understand is that you DO NOT meet a level of force with a lower level of force... you MUST meet a level of force with an equal or superior level of force... IE, trying to talk to someone brandishing a knife a few feet away, with your gun in your holster, is asking to get yourself killed. There are officers who do it, and sometimes they can "talk the guy down" and he gives up and everything is cool... until the one time that the bad guy DOESN'T and they end up severely injured or dead. Automatic escalation is never a good idea either... when you escalate a level of force, you push the bad guy into a position where he either has to escalate, or surrender. These cops escalated and confronted and engaged, when they should have pulled back into a defensive posture guns drawn and de-escalated to the extent possible. THAT is the screw up. Doing so without cause is what got them, and rightfully so.

OF course something else people don't consider, is that the level of threat sufficient to create cause for the use of deadly force by an officer is a fluid thing... for instance, one of my classmates at the academy was a rather attractive, 5 foot 4 inch tall redhead girl that weighed about 115 pounds... Now, I'm 6-1 and at the time was about 250, and as one instructor put it, if we were facing off with some gorilla big dude determined to put up a fight, I'd have to go a few rounds with the guy and take my lumps... the girl, on the other hand, could simply back off and pull her gun and shoot him, and be perfectly justified in doing so-- due to her size and build, if she was faced by a belligerent guy my size and build intent on attacking her physically, she would likely be killed-- knocked senseless or unconscious and then shot with her own weapon... I'd have to go a few rounds until I was knocked half-senseless and about to have my gun taken off me, before I'd be justified in shooting him. Most folks don't get that...

Course, these cops 1) weren't 5-4 redhead chicks, and 2) there were TWO of them, so hence this shooting was totally unjustified UNLESS THE GUY CHARGED THEM WITH A WEAPON. So, yeah, they were unjustified in shooting this guy, and I hope they got what they deserved-- prison time. I'm not going to defend excessive use of force-- far from it. Had I pursued a career in law enforcement, I actually wanted to get into internal affairs type work... BUT, the counterpoint is, a lot of people like to play Monday morning quarterback without actually knowing what the rules are and how and when various levels of force are justified, and how escalation and levels of force actually work, and without HONESTLY answering what they would have done in the exact same situation, AT THAT TIME, KNOWING WHAT THE OFFICERS DID *RIGHT THEN*, and feeling how they felt or having to make the same decisions they made in the same sometimes split-second timeframes... It's EASY to "Monday morning quarterback" when you weren't there, with the benefit of hindsight, and not in any danger whatsoever, with all the information and time in the world to play and replay and examine every facet of the situation to one's heart's content... but sorry to say real life extremely rarely affords that kind of opportunities in a situation. That's where good training and having sensible, intelligent, reasoned-response type people is important, not hotheads, scaredy-cats, or impulsive thugs in uniform...

Later! OL JR

 

[Winston]

Cops are bad, police officers are good. There is a difference, just like there is a difference between cooks and chefs, writers and authors, and pilots and aviators. Pudknockers and astronauts too...

Something that doesn't get adequate recognition but should is the fact that an increasing percentage of cops are ex-military or are in the national guard and have as a result seen combat in places like Iraq or Afghanistan. The recent shooting of a kid carrying a realistic toy AK-47 (from which, according to the photos I've seen, he or a previous owner had removed the legally required blaze orange plastic barrel tip marker) was initiated by a cop who had been in Afghanistan. The kid was shot eight times, I believe, when he turned toward the cops after being told to drop the "gun."