# Survey for ALL NAR members with regards to NAR COMPETITION

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#### Alan15578

##### Well-Known Member
My personal experience is the same. Not only does it discourage competition, but it also suppresses any other form of creativity that does not conform to the HPR dogma.

There is this pervasive attitude of, "Go ahead and play with your Estes toys and let us know when you are ready for REAL rocketry"
That is true enough. Part of the impetus to HPR is that it distances one from little toy rockets. If you happen to mention to a woman that you fly rockets, the typical reply is, "Oh, my retarded brother used to fly rockets." You then respond with : NO, I fly HPR. I have an explosives permit (LEUP), I drive 1000 miles to fly, and I burn up a thousand dollars of motors at a typical launch...

It is not really a MR vs HPR thing. We are all in this together.
Alan, L0

#### Stewman

TRF Supporter
My local group KOSMO 427 hosts a two day competition launch each June. We usually have 5-6 events, most are along the lines of national competition but not always. The top 3 in each contest get a ribbon ( white, red and blue) The winner in each contest gets a $5 Subway card. It is not much but it makes it fun. We usually get about 5-10 competitors. Sport flyers are also welcome Hey John, I was hoping that we could come to KOSMO this year, but we will be on vacation that day and won't be able to make it. Hope things are well with you and your family. #### ewomack ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter I have no interest in rocketry competitions, but I have no problem with others taking part in them. My only issue would be if competition became mandatory in some way for NAR members or sections. That would probably drive me away from NAR, as I would hate for my local rocket launches to become half community launches and half competitions, or some such proportion. I've had similar experiences to others above wherein competition brought more of the worst out in people than the best, but that's just my experience. #### timbucktoo ##### Well-Known Member Staff member TRF Supporter Global Mod ONE person is NOT the solution to this situation and you KNOW it, Tim ( at least I hope you do ) . . . Our club has been doing competition for years, every month. Just takes one leader. #### Ez2cDave ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Our club has been doing competition for years, every month. Just takes one leader. On a national scale, it takes a lot more than "one leader" . . . Being a "leader" means nothing, if the "troops" don't follow and obey orders. If NAR Competition is ever going to become widespread, NAR itself will have to create the necessary policies to make it happen and, then, enforce them. Dave F. #### Exactimator ##### Well-Known Member If it were me, NAR would REQUIRE Sections to hold Multi-Event Competition, 3-4 times per year. Dave, are you considering running for NAR board member? If so, let us know your full last name so I don't accidentally vote for you. Also, if contests become mandatory at our small LPR field I help run, I'll list you as the responsible member and you can fly to San Diego* 3-4 times per year at your own expense to run the contests. Don't volunteer my time for me. You want contests? Run them yourselves. *Remember, whatever it is that scares/angers/upsets you about California we have LOTS OF IT here. #### JohnCoker ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter My feeling when filling out the survey was that someone had an agenda. I couldn't answer everything in the way I wanted to. I am not interested in competition, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm not sure why the survey writer thought you had to be either pro- or anti-; how about "don't care." #### Ez2cDave ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter My feeling when filling out the survey was that someone had an agenda. I couldn't answer everything in the way I wanted to. I am not interested in competition, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm not sure why the survey writer thought you had to be either pro- or anti-; how about "don't care." John, Actually, "apathy" ( don't care ) is worse than expressing a "pro" or "anti" sentiment . . . Frankly, apathy, may be the single largest obstacle that NAR Competition faces. Dave F. #### Ez2cDave ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Dave, are you considering running for NAR board member? If so, let us know your full last name so I don't accidentally vote for you. No worries . . . My "voter base" would be insufficient to result in a victory. Plus, with multiple Board members, the "agenda" would never change and the "status quo" would prevail. Unless the NAR Leadership, collectively, changes its priorities, nothing will change. Dave F. #### gtg738w ##### FlightSketch - flightsketch.com TRF Sponsor My feeling when filling out the survey was that someone had an agenda. I couldn't answer everything in the way I wanted to. I am not interested in competition, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm not sure why the survey writer thought you had to be either pro- or anti-; how about "don't care." Because the “don’t cares” don’t cause problems... People that feel strongly one way or another probably want something to change. It’s nice that Dan & the committee are trying to collect data. Maybe there is something easy that will make everyone happy? Probably not but hearing from members and making any kind of improvement is good for the hobby. Even when something is working well, times change and the sporting code should evolve too. I appreciate the effort to at least reach out and make an effort. #### Art Upton ##### Well-Known Member Here is a way to GUARANTEE an increase in NAR Competition . . . NAR could make it mandatory that all NAR Sections host a minimum of 3-4 Multi-Event Contests per year. Dave F. That would GUARANTEE an extreme reduction in NAR Sections... Yes I know you were saying in "jest" hi hi #### Ez2cDave ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter That would GUARANTEE an extreme reduction in NAR Sections... Yes I know you were saying in "jest" hi hi So, the vast majority of NAR Sections would disband, just to avoid NAR Competition . . . Really ? Dave F. #### Art Upton ##### Well-Known Member Yes Dave, they would not allow themselves to be "Mandated" out of their "free will" to just fly rockets. They would form yet another organization like what happened in the late 80s........... Last edited: #### Art Upton ##### Well-Known Member Dave, are you the Dave that at one time promised to go to the Michigan NARAM at the Cow Museum and then not show up? Last edited: #### Art Upton ##### Well-Known Member I can tell you at my Section JMRC we have been flying NRC competitions by the folks that like to do it along side the sport flyers. Some of the Staged Scale models are "Very Impressive". Also we have  had 2 JR FAI flyers that are very competitive. But the folks that do it make it happen, they do the work and yes I always have a few stop watches and help time from time to time. I have flown in some of the club special events [Bertha duration etc..] in the last few years but not in any of the official NRC events...Yet but I will.. I have a couple of NARAM Iron pieces upstairs in the rocket room from days gone by plus that A division Merc Dual Eggloft record I got in 1975 on an E60. Gus #### dhbarr ##### Amateur Professional My local group KOSMO 427 hosts a two day competition launch each June. We usually have 5-6 events, most are along the lines of national competition but not always. The top 3 in each contest get a ribbon ( white, red and blue) The winner in each contest gets a$5 Subway card. It is not much but it makes it fun. We usually get about 5-10 competitors. Sport flyers are also welcome
Well, I just found out there -is- competition flying close to me. That tears it, time to dust off the ol' NARTREK plans for '22.

#### BEC

##### Well-Known Member
If it were me, NAR would REQUIRE Sections to hold Multi-Event Competition, 3-4 times per year. If the HPR "elites" don't like that, they need to remember where they started out in Rocketry ( most likely Estes BP motors ). If they want to exclude NAR Competition, strictly for selfish reasons, that is pretty petty !

Also, there would be an NAR program that prepares kids for larger rockets ( like the old Estes "EAC" & NARTREK, but with actual instruction, awards, and rewards . . . Sort of a "Pre-Certification" program, if you will ). It would be steeped in NAR Competition events, from day one !

Start them early . . . Get involved yourselves . . . Pay it forward and make Rocketry grow ( for everyone ).

Dave F.
As the fellow basically running one small Section whose flying site is not suitable for a competitive model to fly PD or SD events (except maybe 1/4A), while I agree with the sentiment of pushing the availability of more competitions, I cringe at the idea of the NAR requiring it of a section. But that thought does suggest to me I need to push harder on the fact that we CAN host some of the NRC events there and get our launches on the schedule so that the events can be flown.

The additional overhead to run these events is mainly folks to time duration flights. The rest of it I can handle along with our regular operations, and I certainly have no problem dealing with altimeters (no surprise there).

Now that we're starting to be able to fly again as folks get vaccinated, I will ramp this up a bit. For the past over a year between the virus and the usual iffy weather in the winter, it's really not been worth even mentioning in the monthly launch announcement.

As for your comment about the NAR having "killed the Pink Book"....I have no idea what you're talking about there. NRC flies a subset of Pink Book events and doesn't preclude anyone holding any or all of the others. No events have been deleted from the Pink Book.

Coming to rocketry competition late in life, I found the weighting factors and all that highly confusing and I'm glad that business is out of there. Is that what you were referring to in that "killed" comment?

#### UhClem

##### Well-Known Member
No events have been deleted from the Pink Book.
But the framework for using those events is gone. The rules for local/open/regional contests and even the weighting factors were deleted.

#### Art Upton

##### Well-Known Member
^ I say GOOD.... all the factors were mandering from pink book lawyers ... NOW ANYONE can compete without having to have a local club or some regional clubs nearby that is like the total competition rulers...

#### BEC

##### Well-Known Member
As I said, the weighting factors, to me, coming at this from AMA competition where performance measurements (like duration or speed) were simply measured and there were no added complication factors, seemed arcane and almost impossible to understand. In the early days of my trying to get involved in competitions here in the Pacific Northwest (there was a push among a few folks ~9-10 years ago) I was glad I didn't have to figure that stuff out, as I never CD'd a competition, I just flew in them.

Now, one just goes and flies the events within the NRC framework. I have to admit I haven't looked at what it would take to run a contest with other events, though I've participated in NARAM-60 and NARAM-61. I found the fact that I could just show up at NARAM and fly just as I had for some local competitions when we had them (even for my first NARAM, which was 56) was refreshingly simple after puzzling over all that weighting factor stuff in the Pink Book.

The idea of competing against folks whose names I'd only read was actually quite enough for me (as it was the only time I went to an AMA Nats, which was in 1989).

Maybe I'm just not understanding what some folks feel is lost....

#### GuyNoir

##### Well-Known Member
But the framework for using those events is gone. The rules for local/open/regional contests and even the weighting factors were deleted.
Yes, but the rules to sanction the contest don't say anything re: what events you can or can't fly:

"6.2 Sanction - Application for sanction of an NRC launch or Record Trial must be made to the NAR Regional Contest Board at least seven (7) days in advance of the date of the launch. Application for a launch sanction shall be made electronically at NAR.org. An NAR member eighteen (18) years of age or older, who will serve as the Contest Director, must submit the application. All NAR sanctioned launches will be automatically posted to the NAR Launch Calendar on NAR.org."

Fly whatever the heck you want.

#### JohnCoker

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Actually, "apathy" ( don't care ) is worse than expressing a "pro" or "anti" sentiment . . . Frankly, apathy, may be the single largest obstacle that NAR Competition faces.
"Worse" is a value judgement, which I guess reinforces my point about there being an agenda. Aside from that, forcing people into a pro or con position when they hold neither just makes the collected data less valid.

"The largest obstacle that NAR Competition faces" is also an odd phrase. Trying to force people who aren't interested in something to participate is unlikely to produce good results. This is a hobby after all.

#### UhClem

##### Well-Known Member
Yes, but the rules to sanction the contest don't say anything re: what events you can or can't fly:
Rule 13.1.7 requires that you run all the NRC events at a sanctioned NRC launch. Echoed on the NAR web page for registering a launch.

#### Gus

##### Well-Known Member
Rule 13.1.7 requires that you run all the NRC events at a sanctioned NRC launch. Echoed on the NAR web page for registering a launch.
David, I really like the NRC changes. Yes, if you register an NRC launch it means people can fly any of the events on the NRC schedule. But oftentimes people show up and only a few of the events are actually flown. Nice thing about NRC is that it requires nothing of the event organizers other than showing up with a stopwatch (which most of us already have on our phones) and the flight cards. Yes, the CD has to then load the data into Contest Manager but that doesn't have to be done at the launch itself.

As Art mentioned above, every JMRC launch is also an NRC launch. And our friends up in Muskegon do the same with all of their launches. Usually there are 3 or 4 of us who fly a few of the contest events while everyone else is flying low, mid, and high power sport flights. Everything is flown from the regular pads, in regular rotation with everyone else. The NRC fliers don't affect the rest of the launch at all (other than to be made fun of by the LCO for really crappy flights, LOL). What I personally like is that I can always fly records trial flights at an NRC launch as well. To me, adding NRC to a regular launch just increases the amount of fun stuff to do.

I do have to say that the one unexpected downside of NRC has been that the overall adult numbers of competitors has declined. But I think that has less to do with the number of people who don't like the events than it does with the fact that a lot of the folks who previously participated did so because their section was doing a launch and recruited folks who usually don't compete to help their team numbers. I personally know a number of those nice folks.

The thing I like most about NRC is that it is so easy to schedule and run a launch. WAY different than pre-NRC days. I'm also really glad to see Dan Wolf trying to figure out ways to make it even better. Dan's been doing a great job as contest chair.

Steve

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#### UhClem

##### Well-Known Member
It requires more than a stopwatch. You should also have a scale and calipers so you can check out payloads. Plus you should probably have the list of approved altimeters handy. Entering data was a PITA since I had to do it twice. Once for Contest Manager and again on the NAR web site.

NRC is pointless unless you plan to go to NARAM. With the old local/open/regional system there were of course points available for those with such plans. For everyone else (the majority) you had event and contest winners. All competing head to head on the same day and the same field.

So you had something for those with no plans to go to NARAM. Sure you could do that now but there is nothing in the rules to support or encourage it. The rules basically say that unless you plan on going to NARAM, you do not matter.

I (and many others) complained about this before the change. But we were told up front that our comments didn't matter. Only tweaks to the proposed system counted. No data was ever presented by the Expanding Competition Committee to support the idea that it would indeed expand competition. The opposite is what actually happened.

#### Sooner Boomer

##### Well-Known Member
Is there any way to have something like a postal match via NAR rules?

#### GuyNoir

##### Well-Known Member
Is there any way to have something like a postal match via NAR rules?
Last summer, a virtual NARAM was run. People had about 6 weeks to fly and submit results. It was a lot of fun.

#### GuyNoir

##### Well-Known Member
So you had something for those with no plans to go to NARAM. Sure you could do that now but there is nothing in the rules to support or encourage it.
I guess I don't see how anything in the NRC changes from previous rules re: a local club or flyers saying "Let's fly Sport Scale." and doing it. You could certainly do that under both the previous and NRC rules. All it takes is someone organizing locally to do that.

My \$0.02; YMMV.

#### tab28682

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
The concept of mandatory contests for each NAR section is, thankfully, an idea whose time will never come.

Take something that relatively few folks in rocketry are interested in and make doing it mandatory will kill it deader than it is now.

#### Alan15578

##### Well-Known Member
The concept of mandatory contests for each NAR section is, thankfully, an idea whose time will never come.

Take something that relatively few folks in rocketry are interested in and make doing it mandatory will kill it deader than it is now.