Streamers for camanchee 3 booster's

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CalebJ

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I drew the lines but when i put it on the jig, nothing lined up.
Did the paper wrap from the instructions to mark the lines on the tube actually come around and meet itself correctly? I don't know how many of those I've cut out and tried to use that didn't match the tube.
 

jqavins

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Streamers tend to be much more forgiving compared with chutes, plus low power boosters usually don’t need THAT much recovery help. Often as long as they don’t go ballistic (which IS a problem with long gap stages), they will tumble recover fine.
Camanchee 3 boosters are so small that the only real reason to add streamers, and it's a very good reason, is as locator flags.


So i glued all the fins on yesterday with the estes fin alignment guide and let me tell you this. Dont ever ever everrrrr get the estes fin alignment guide!
I've used my Estes fin jig on every build that I can, and I fret over those I can't. My results with the jig have always been very good.
Don't you need 2 guides in order for the fins to be vertically straight?
Keeping the fins evenly spaced is indexing. Keeping the root edges parallel to the tube axis and keeping the cords normal to the tube surface are alignment. (I suppose there are separate terms like axial alignment and radial alignment for those, respectively.) So yes, things like the Qualman guides give you indexing and radial alignment but not axial alignment unless you use two of them. And then you need to assure that the two are aligned with one another or all you'll get is fins that are all off vertical by the same amount (which is fine if you want a spinner). Something like the guillotine jig Apogee sells gives you radial and axial alignment, but not indexing.

The nice thing about the Estes jig is that it gives all three at once in a very simple, easy to use tool. Unless you get one with warped parts, or some such.
Good fin guides are nice, but not essential, at least for Sport rocketry. Remember, it’s supposed to be FUN! people have for years and still do build rockets drawing lines with a pencil and a wrap around marking guide or a metal angle or door or drawer edge.
That varies a lot from person to person. Some of us have lousy hand-eye coordination and lousy-to-nonexistent depth perception and can screw up nearly any free hand operation, so without a jig of some sort it's not fun.
Remember you must draw your fin lines before using Estes fin jig. Jig works great if you do so.
When there are other features to line the fins up with, yes. For a simple 3/4FNC, I just put the body (with the motor mount installed) and the fins in my jig and go. Some slight nudging is occasionally needed, but that's easy even for me with the jig holding things still. Then walk away until the glue is dry. It has never failed me.
 

aviserated

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You are kidding right? You have to line fins up with line until glue sets. Fin guide is mostly for indexing.
 

AtomicStorm

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So i marked the lines with the piece of paper that wraps around the tube in the instructions and marked it on the door jam. Whenever i put it in the jig, not only where the lines bent, 2 fins almost lined up with the guide and the third was off alot. But all 3 lines were slanted slightly about an 8th of an inch. So i said screw it, i put the body tube in and all the fins. Pulled the fins back about half a inch so i could glue them with a 1 minute bead then i put another bead of glue on and slid them to the bt and let them dry.
 

AtomicStorm

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Here's a pic of the boosters sitting on top of each other.
IMG_20210511_144335.jpg
 

CalebJ

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For a booster section, use popsicle sticks clamped on either side of the upper stage fin to align the fin stages together.
 

jqavins

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You are kidding right? You have to line fins up with line until glue sets. Fin guide is mostly for indexing.
Not kidding at all. I assume that by "line fins up with line" you mean align fins with a drawn line. By " until glue sets" do you mean manually hold the fin aligned until glue sets? If the jig isn't doing the holding for me then it's completely useless. And if, when holding, it only does indexing but not aligning then, again, it's completely useless.

Jigs are for holding things where they need to be held. Anything less is only a guide. Guides are often better than nothing, but jigs are always better than guides. And guides that are called jigs are junk woefully misrepresented.

I'd be very happy to have a jig that does what the Estes jig does but better, i.e. with greater flexibility of function, rigidity of structure, and range of material sizes. Still, what it does is hold the fin, both in position and orientation, quite adequately for all my LPR needs so far.
 
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aviserated

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Jquavins, sorry but I was not responding to your post. I was responding to one of atomicstorms earlier post.

My Estes fin guide is much like atomicstorms, the fins angle will be off a couple of degrees if you rely on the guide itself and not draw lines and use the lines as guides. I have thought about cutting the plates and reglueing them to a true 90 degree angle. Then I would have to be sure rocket tube is at true 90 degree angle. Nevermind...too much truouble...I will just use the lines drawn on tube and the Estes guide as the guide and not a jig.
 

aviserated

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I did not use the Estes fin guide with the last couple of three fin rockets. I simply laid the rocket tube on flat surface edge and supported fins with appropriate thickness spacer. With a b60 tube and .125 thick fin, spacer thickness is .750". Thinner fins require thicker spacer...do the math. Use super glue for fast gluing, the epoxy fillets using JB weld.
 

lakeroadster

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I'm late to the show here... but why not make the motor mounts in the boosters a spool design?

The streamer wraps around around the motor tubes and when the next stage fires it'll kick out the spool (that's attached to the booster with a kevlar chord) and the streamer will unwrap?

Kind of like the spool design on my in progress Shooting Star Columbine. Would that be an option?

Red Columbine Presentation.JPG
 

AtomicStorm

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I'm late to the show here... but why not make the motor mounts in the boosters a spool design?

The streamer wraps around around the motor tubes and when the next stage fires it'll kick out the spool (that's attached to the booster with a kevlar chord) and the streamer will unwrap?

Kind of like the spool design on my in progress Shooting Star Columbine. Would that be an option?

View attachment 463865
Im sure it would work if everything was setup right. I sure the motor mount would have to fit very loosely for it to eject. Also if the string isnt pulling from dead center of the booster tube, the motor mount may not pull out the booster. Lots to think about and test but im sure i cohld make something like that work. Thanks for the nifty idea! I like not having to worry about more drag and putting on seperate tubes. For now i have the fins put on, papered, sanded and a couple coats of primer. I haven't glued any couplers or motor mounts into place just incase i change my mind on the build. If it flies pretty straight, i will put an altimeter in it. Went to lowes today for some shower faucets and saw some 4ft. Clear tubing for t12 bulb protectors and measured it. Found out it is the same size as my bt60 vapor so i got one and now im going to have a clear ebay/payload section.lol Keep the good ideas coming.
 

GalantVR41062

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After I glue fins on using the Estes jig I eye ball them up, and tweek the fins one at a time until they look perpendicular to the body tube.

And for the C3 I stack the boosters on and get them all in line and looking good, then index mark the boosters to the sustainer.

As said also having a straight edge clamped to the 3 fin sets would help hold them inline, so my next built I plan to TTW the sustainer and 2nd booster, use a straight edge to hold things as I put down some fillets.
 

AtomicStorm

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Yeh i think i was just moving too quick and not thinking things out. My last build i did for my son was a little crossfire. I used the paper guide in the directions to mark the bt and i just put little dots at the bottom of the bt where the fins are placed. I then marked the lines on the door jam just going off of the dots. Didnt use a jig or anything, just glued them on and straightened them up by eye. That was the straightest flying rocket i have ever built besides the ones that come with the plastic fin cans with the fins already attached. Until i put a c6-7 in it and sent it into orbit on its 3rd flight. Still hasnt come down :)
 

jqavins

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Y'see, when I've done that:
  • Indexing I can get good.
  • Axial alignment (zero cant) I can get, eh, close enough to fly.
  • Radial alignment (normal to the tube surface) I will screw up. Every damn time. The best method I've found let's me not screw it up very badly, but I'm just incapable of getting it right.
 

aviserated

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Crossfire has thru wall fin mount. Slots are precut in tube making alignment more inline. The Estes fin guide works great with thru wall rockets. Such as the Estes Big Daddy.
 

AtomicStorm

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Im just going to start 3d printing fin cans with the fins attached for every rocket i build. Problem solved.
 

AtomicStorm

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Crossfire has thru wall fin mount. Slots are precut in tube making alignment more inline. The Estes fin guide works great with thru wall rockets. Such as the Estes Big Daddy.
Oh yeh i forgot about that. Lol
 

jqavins

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Im just going to start 3d printing fin cans with the fins attached for every rocket i build. Problem solved.
Heavier than cardboard and balsa, isn't it? And if that means nose weight to rebalance the rocket then it's a double whammy.
 
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