# Stormcaster Problem

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#### Wonderdog

##### Well-Known Member
When my son's Stormcaster was taken out to launch, we ran into a problem. Seems a 'D' would not fit into the engine tube. Tube was too small. I figured he got in his usual huge hurry and didn't read anything and so tried a 'C', figuring he put in the wrong tube. Nope, 'C' fell in really loose. Tried a different 'D', tube too small. Any ideas???? Naturally he swears he read all the directions and did everything right and I must admit it looks good and can't figure what's going on. Could Estes have goofed on the kit? I know its not a 'swollen' D.

Da Dog

#### phaar

##### Well-Known Member
I am assuming the C is a C11 (24mm)? It is pretty interesting you bring that up though. Two guys that I know have had some of the same experiences. In fact, I was just talking to one of them in the chat room a few hours ago. The estes motors would not fit in the estes kits. It was very strange. They just sanded or peeled off some of the outside of the paper. I am also assuming that when you say it does not fit, you mean it is just barely not going in? It is a weird thing...I do not know what is going on either.

#### astrowolf67

##### Well-Known Member
At our last launch, I had a problem with a D not fitting my Stormcaster also. It was an older motor, with the "poopy clay" nozzle and plug. It would only go in about a half inch or so, and I had to use pliers to get it back out. I tried one of the newer motors, and it fit just fine.

#### Wonderdog

##### Well-Known Member
The bottom of the engine tube was destroyed before my son stopped trying to put in the motor. Tears of confusion and frustration. The tube was split in four places up to the lower centering ring. I've thought about cutting the mmt out and putting in another. Nothing fits. C-11, D, E, all too big. Its not 24mm and its not 18mm. It irks me to have to peel off the paper from the motor but I guess I'll try it before taking a knife to the mmt. The motors being used are all newer ones. At least they just came from a vendor. Do you suppose Estes is aware? Think I'll drop them a line since this has happened to others also.

Da Dog

#### JSvolfan

##### Well-Known Member
I just finished building a stormcaster last week. After reading this thread I decided to try a motor in it for the first time. It was loose for the first inch but when it got to right around the motor tube centering ring it got tight. I got mine in all the way but boy was it tight at first. After I tried a few times it seemed to get easier. I am not sure if I have the old type motors or the new ones but the ones I have look like they have clay nozzles.

#### rbeckey

##### Well-Known Member
I had a few E9 motors that were too tight at my last launch. I ended up peeling of a thin layer of paper to get them in. There was no other choice, it was either that or don't use the motors.

#### Stones

##### Well-Known Member
Actually, it's a common occurance. You'll find it on A/B/C motors now and then too. The paper on the ejection charge end will be slightly "rolled over/peeled", not much but, this is usually why the motor won't go in. I usually sand or carve the edge a tad to get them to fit.

#### LtSharpe

##### Well-Known Member
I built a storm caster about 2 weeks ago. I have put two C11's in it and 3 D12's without any trouble. They fit perfectly. I bet it's a humidity thing.

#### n3tjm

##### Papa Elf
The paper does swell on the motors, so try a newer D12 motor

#### LtSharpe

##### Well-Known Member
Stones pegged it. It's the peeling on the ends. I've had that happen. That had to be it.

#### rbeckey

##### Well-Known Member
Actually, I always check the end of the motor for burrs and such, and trim the end if it seems a little swelled, but I have recently run into motors that will still not fit a standard mount. A single layer of paper peeled off seems to be just enough.

Here is something I've noticed: A motor that is tight going in will sometimes slide right out after it is launched and cools off. Any theories?

#### LtSharpe

##### Well-Known Member
Well if they behave like brass firearms cartridges they expand during firing and contract after the shot. I suspect that since the motor has no ejection clay plug or any hard core of propellant after the 'shot' that it is contracting to a more natural point when it cools off. I suspect humidity and temperature outside would impact it a lot as well during this process.

Originally posted by rbeckey
Actually, I always check the end of the motor for burrs and such, and trim the end if it seems a little swelled, but I have recently run into motors that will still not fit a standard mount. A single layer of paper peeled off seems to be just enough.

Here is something I've noticed: A motor that is tight going in will sometimes slide right out after it is launched and cools off. Any theories?

#### Bill

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by wonderdog
When my son's Stormcaster was taken out to launch, we ran into a problem. Seems a 'D' would not fit into the engine tube. Tube was too small. I figured he got in his usual huge hurry and didn't read anything and so tried a 'C', figuring he put in the wrong tube. Nope, 'C' fell in really loose. Tried a different 'D', tube too small. Any ideas???? Naturally he swears he read all the directions and did everything right and I must admit it looks good and can't figure what's going on. Could Estes have goofed on the kit? I know its not a 'swollen' D.
Was your "motor mount tube" white or yellow? My StormCaster came with an approximately 9.5" long white motor tube and a shorter 2.75" long yellow tube for use as an engine block spacing tool.

An inexperienced builder might have mistakenly built the motor mount around the spacer tube. This is not helped by the fact that the engine hook retainer tube (2" long with a very heavy wall) has an inside diameter which is too small and the instructions say it may be necessary to peel some paper out of it.

Bill

#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
I built two of these kits, and have launched using regular ol' Estes 24mm C and D motors. Everything fit as usual and worked fine. Yes, the motors often have a snug fit at the back end but that seems to be typical for Estes. I did not have any trouble at the point of initial motor-case insertion that was noted by Wonderdog.

Only problem I had with the Stormcaster was a rocket-eating tree.

#### johnnwwa

##### Well-Known Member
This will not fix your problem on the Stormcaster now but in the future try this. take a used motor casing prior to assembly of motor mount and test fit in tube. If it fits your good to go, also when rocket is ready for painting including primer coat I insert a spent motor to keep any paint from building up inside motor tube.

BAR
JOHN

#### Wonderdog

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks for all of your replies. The suggestion that it was caused by humidity was somewhat believable as I live in humidityville here in Florida. However, its Bill who wins the award for pointing out what happens when instructions aren't read!

Bill, I read your reply while at work today and thought immediately that the motor spacer tube instead of the mmt tube might be the problem. When my son arrived home I asked him about the two tubes in the kit and he gave me the HUNNHHHH? look. Then I asked him what color the tube was before he sprayed it with 12 cans of my dark blue krylon. Seems it was yellow and short and "it looked like all the others in my other rockets - kinda". He saves all of his instructions and spare parts so he promises to read them this time and we'll redo it together. They're probably under the bed, in the bottom of the closet under lots of "important" 10 yr old boy stuff, or in a completely unrelated dresser drawer or in a model airplane box or maybe in the laundry room in some of his jeans pockets. What would I do without him. He's a good kid. Loves rockets, wants to build them all yesterday and launch NOW.
Thanks again for all your input.

Da Dog

#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
If he did use the wrong tube, he would never get the motor inside there.

At this point you could probably remove the original MMT parts, cut some replacement CRs (out of picture matte board?), and use some spare BT50. If you carefully peel apart the original MMT you can re-use the thrust ring and motor clip.

I hope this is all that caused the problem, and that you guys can fix it ("Dad can fix it! He can fix anything!")
It will be a valuable learning experience for your son, too.

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
Excuse me.

You didn't by any chance install the "yellow" tube into the motor mount?

That's an engine spacer tube meant as a gauge during construction. It's not to be used as a permanent part of the model.

#### Wonderdog

##### Well-Known Member
Powderburner,

That motor wouldn't go in at all. That's why the tube is split all the way up to the bottom ring. I was coming back to the van from the LCO's table with my younger daughter who is working on NARTREK Cadet Mercury and there was little 'Werner' twisting and shoving that motor while his mother stood there proclaiming, "Ask your dad!! Stop that! That won't work! No, I don't know what will but stop it!" A Great American Family Moment. "Dad, can we take the dogs to the next launch? Huh, huh, please?" Greyhound and an old mutt. I don't think so. But I do have another Stormcaster kit in the closet he doesn't know anything about.

Sandman, Yes, he put the engine spacer tube (yelloooow) in instead of the mmt tube.

Here's a pic.

https://www.ofoto.com/PhotoView.jsp?&collid=45849003107&photoid=55849003107

Da Dog

#### LtSharpe

##### Well-Known Member
That's very sad heh. The storm caster is a great rocket. Mine flies straight as an arrow which is better than I can say for most. I think it's length helps. Michaels has this model to by the way if anyone is interested,, least the one here does.

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
...
Sandman, Yes, he put the engine spacer tube (yelloooow) in instead of the mmt tube

Ahhhh....then THAT would be an OOPS!

You are not the first person to do that!

Yer gonna have to see if you can remove it

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
Try this!

See if you can get ahold of part of the tube with the longest thinest pair of needle nose plier you have.

Just grap hold of a corner of the spiral tube and sorta...wind it up around the pliers pealing it off as you go. Be gentle and try not to destroy too much of the centering rings. Layer after layer intil the yellow tube is gone.

You may wind up destoying the motor tube in the process depending on how much glue you used.

If you JUST put the yellow tube in look around for a brown tube the size of a "D" motor...that's the motor tube and you're all set to go.

Don't worry about destroying the yellow tube "Rip that sucker outa there!"...it's just a "tool". Use an old spent motor as a replacement "gauge".

The tube for the motor can be easily replaced with a length of BT-50.

Are there any other rocket people around that you can "mooch" a motor mount length of tube from?

If not you will have to buy some...not expensive but we here can direct you to LOT & Lots of sources for that tube.

Let us know how you do and we here can help you make it all better!

#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
wonderdog,
FWIW, I have had the exact same problems with my 11-yr-old. Maybe not the wrong motor mount, but certainly being too excited and not following the directions. I have thrown out several of his 'creations' because by the time I got home and saw what he had done, it was too late to salvage anything but the NC.
I don't know how to teach my kid how to slow down, I think kids this age simply CANNOT be slowed down. No amount of 'explaining' seems to make a difference. I hate to be too strict but he has got to learn how to build a safe, working rocket if he is going to do this at all.
We have the same problem with plastic model kits. He gets excited and breaks all the little parts off the trees so he can start to dry-fit the model together. Later, when many of the parts are lost, or confused left-hand with right-hand, he gets mad when he can't put his model together. Of course, then he brings it to me and asks *me* to fix it. Arrrggghhh.

#### prowlerguy

Could the Stormcaster fly on a C6? I don't have Rocksim at work, but if it could, you could simply make an adapter out of a spent 24mm engine (peeled enough to fit the yellow tube) and fly it. My Stormcaster is pretty light, so it might be worth a shot if major surgery is too hard. Plus, for $11.50 you can get a new one, so all is not lost. #### Wonderdog ##### Well-Known Member Powderburner, I'm not sure you can slow them down or if its good to do so. As far as safety is concerned, yes, they must be aware and everything has to be checked. That's why we supervise their activities. As far as the building goes, they'll eventually learn from mistakes that its best to slow down. Or else their skills will become good so fast, their mistakes will go away. Until then its up to us to intercede and encourage them to work slower and smarter instead of faster and younger. Ahh, the exuberance of youth! As smart as they are, their world is still small and they've a long, long way to go. As a BAR, I'm relearning with him and sometimes I think I'm behind the curve and he's ahead, but then, I'm the dad and he doesn't read instructions. "Now, take that apart son, and do it the right way. It takes you twice as long to do it fast and wrong." Da Dog #### Wonderdog ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by prowlerguy Could the Stormcaster fly on a C6? I don't have Rocksim at work, but if it could, you could simply make an adapter out of a spent 24mm engine (peeled enough to fit the yellow tube) and fly it. My Stormcaster is pretty light, so it might be worth a shot if major surgery is too hard. Plus, for$11.50 you can get a new one, so all is not lost.

I might tear it apart but probably not. Seems he somehow found a way to glue the mmt tube (white and long) above the engine spacer tube (yaller thingy). 'Werner' is very creative with his 'instant engineering', and you should hear the reasons - - sounds logical! Its either going to be chunked or possibly cut down and make something really weird. Probably chunk it.

Da Dog