Speaking of igniters (for small motors)

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slothead

slothead

Slothead Tom
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I used four Estes igniters to start two small motors this past weekend and I really don't like how they are made now. What can I use to improve (reinforce) them so they are more reliable? I thought about dipping the igniters in Quick-dip to accomplish that, but I don't really know how safe that is. Any better suggestions?

Thanks,
Tom
 
Are you using the black powder motor igniters? If so a dip in nitrocellulose lacquer and then dipped in black powder will improve them greatly. Dipping in Quick-dip or any other ematch/ignitor compound will work too, I dip mine in Firefox's Metallic H3 dip (usually with a pre-dip in ELV non-conductive compound first, but the H3 by itself is sufficient).
 
One of our TRF members wrote an article for Sport Rocketry with a simple solution. No need to mix up chemicals.

Go to a fabric shop and get some fabric glue. Make sure it clearly indicates that it is flammable.

Dip the igniter in the glue, then dip it in a little BP. Let dry. Done.
 
Bat-mite said:
One of our TRF members wrote an article for Sport Rocketry with a simple solution. No need to mix up chemicals.

Go to a fabric shop and get some fabric glue. Make sure it clearly indicates that it is flammable.

Dip the igniter in the glue, then dip it in a little BP. Let dry. Done.
Click to expand...

Bat, sandeja just posted links to that article. You’re right it’s the simplest solution.
 
Bat-mite said:
One of our TRF members wrote an article for Sport Rocketry with a simple solution. No need to mix up chemicals.

Go to a fabric shop and get some fabric glue. Make sure it clearly indicates that it is flammable.

Dip the igniter in the glue, then dip it in a little BP. Let dry. Done.
Click to expand...
Duco cement will work along with the BP, as its a nitrocellulose based glue and very flammable.
 
When I was a kid and an acolyte in church the ladies used to paint the candle wicks with clear fingernail polish so they would light quicker. Maybe I've missed it, but has anyone tried this with igniters, then in black powder. Easy to apply because it comes with a small paint brush.
 
Bat-mite said:
I would guess that anything that is sticky and flammable would work.
Click to expand...

John, I challenge you to tell me something that is sticky and NOT flammable. (Hmmm) Maybe the characteristic that you left out is that it needs to harden eventually (the quicker the better after a couple minutes).
 
slothead said:
John, I challenge you to tell me something that is sticky and NOT flammable. (Hmmm) Maybe the characteristic that you left out is that it needs to harden eventually (the quicker the better after a couple minutes).
Click to expand...

Titebond or Elmer’s glue are some common substances that are sticky without being flammable. Epoxy is at the very low end of the flammability continuum.
 
Ok, I wouldn’t call them sticky though. I would call them fluid. I guess it’s a matter of semantics. Are you sure they aren’t flammable? Once the water leaves, might they not burn? But while this is not really valuable discussion, it is food for thought.
 
slothead said:
Ok, I wouldn’t call them sticky though. I would call them fluid. I guess it’s a matter of semantics. Are you sure they aren’t flammable? Once the water leaves, might they not burn? But while this is not really valuable discussion, it is food for thought.
Click to expand...
Everything's flammable if you believe in yourself and try real hard :-D
 
slothead said:
Ok, I wouldn’t call them sticky though. I would call them fluid. I guess it’s a matter of semantics. Are you sure they aren’t flammable? Once the water leaves, might they not burn? But while this is not really valuable discussion, it is food for thought.
Click to expand...

The placards for both as listed in the SDS shows flammability as 0. That’s specific and technical. Various pastes, caulks, and other compounds are also not flammable but you’d have a difficult time convincing anyone they’re not sticky.
Will an aliphatic resin char when exposed to flame once it has dried? Yes, but that’s not what flammable means. And, you specifically said sticky. Once it had dried, it’s not sticky. So in this case there’s a material that can’t be burned until it’s no longer sticky.
 
From experience with the new non-dipped solars, they work pretty well if you're careful to place them against the propellant slug, and Hold Down the ignition key.

No longer do they pop to life instantly, the nichrome has to get hot which takes just a second longer.

We can thank regulation scrutiny for the change (if you ever get to tour the estes plant, the machines that spit these out are nifty.
 
My point was simply that any glue with a "FLAMMABLE" warning on the label will work to glue on the BP. Don't use Elmer's or epoxy, like Steve said.
 
Are we still talking about this!? I got several good ideas from the responses so thanks for that, and the idea about sticky and flammable makes a lot of sense. The only thing I was concerned about was unexpected reactions. I would prefer using something that someone had used successfully without surprises.

Thanks guys,
Tom
 
slothead said:
John, I challenge you to tell me something that is sticky and NOT flammable. (Hmmm) Maybe the characteristic that you left out is that it needs to harden eventually (the quicker the better after a couple minutes).
Click to expand...

I'll take this on. RTV silicone is not flammable. I've taken a torch to RTV and had trouble getting it to ignite. Interestingly enough one type, GEII, makes a good propellant with the proper oxidizer (and other stuff).
 
Just have gotten back into rocketry. The old igniters worked very well, and I actually had some in my old range box, but these new ones are crap ! Someone mentioned "Regulations" , what happened ? Most places won't sell engines to kids, usually require an adult buying them, that being the case, what caused them to ruin the igniters ?
 
Gerald said:
Just have gotten back into rocketry. The old igniters worked very well, and I actually had some in my old range box, but these new ones are crap ! Someone mentioned "Regulations" , what happened ? Most places won't sell engines to kids, usually require an adult buying them, that being the case, what caused them to ruin the igniters ?
Click to expand...

Rumor has it that Estes is very aware of the issue and a solution is being worked on.....
 
Gerald said:
Just have gotten back into rocketry. The old igniters worked very well, and I actually had some in my old range box, but these new ones are crap ! Someone mentioned "Regulations" , what happened ? Most places won't sell engines to kids, usually require an adult buying them, that being the case, what caused them to ruin the igniters ?
Click to expand...

I always refer back to Bill Stine's comments during the Manufactures Forum at NARAM 56 in 2014. Spoiler alert, he pointed to off the record but very authoritative regulatory advice as the reason for the change.

Starters vs. igniters

Estes had already introduced their pyrogen-less starters at that time.
 
Back in the day we would take the wire twists from bread bags, strip the plastic (or paper) off of them, and just use the bare wire.

The wire is a heavier gauge than what Estes uses, it would glow red hot and not quickly melt in to (using a 12 volt car battery as the launcher battery).

I can't recall ever having a failure using those.
 
sandeja1 said:
I have used "Quick-dip" with great effect on all of my Estes ignitors.
Chris Michaelson has a really good idea on how to improve Estes ignitors as well:
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/upgrading-estes-starter-igniters-part-1.html
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/upgrading-estes-starter-igniters-part-2.html
https://modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com/2018/08/estes-starter-igniter-upgrade-update.html
Click to expand...

Two reasons why I used the Beacon Fabri-Tac glue on the igniter upgrades -
Nail polish is thinner and harder to handle when coating the igniter tip with BP. Not all nail polish contains a high percentage of lacquer.
The Fabri-Tac glue is handy to have for other LPR builds. It contains acetone and is perfect for gluing bases on two-piece
plastic nose cones. It's also great for gluing plastic adapters into Kraft paper body tubes.
 
hcmbanjo said:
Two reasons why I used the Beacon Fabri-Tac glue on the igniter upgrades -
Nail polish is thinner and harder to handle when coating the igniter tip with BP. Not all nail polish contains a high percentage of lacquer.
The Fabri-Tac glue is handy to have for other LPR builds. It contains acetone and is perfect for gluing bases on two-piece
plastic nose cones. It's also great for gluing plastic adapters into Kraft paper body tubes.
Click to expand...
It is an effective, inexpensive, easy solution.
 
Got curious about the differences of the igniters, since I found my old supply box. I took photo's of what we get now, what we did get back in the good old days, and after dipping and 4F black-powder to them. Saw how to do this on another thread here.
I would say the added Gunpowder is very impressive, a fire ball even jumped off the igniter !
 

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