Somone talk me out of this.......please

[Astro-Baby]

Feeling rather smug at having completed the afliskits Thunderbird I am seeking the next project. I was going to build a Sea Dart from scratch bu my eldest has suggested something more whacky and I have become a bit daring about this and thought why bother making a scratch build which isnst really a scartch, just a rehash of an Estes kit.

Soooooo I am going to have a go at building a true scratch build.........my eldest has an obsessin with WW2 ...most brits do really to be fair and especially what might be called German Secret Weapons. So having browsed some sites, looked at some pics I am going to have a go at a scratch of a German WW2 anti aircraft missile called Rheintocter. Its a pretty looking rocket with lots of fins and looks suitably weird.

I managed to get some line drawings of it so it shouldnt be impossible to make a scale up. Biggest problem I can see is the constantly changing tube diameter but ai am sure there are others.

What do you guys think ? Am I mad ? is it possible ?

It seems to me that given the Estes V2 fans that someone would produce some of these weird looking WW2 secret weapons.

 

[krusty]

WoW I've never seen the Rheintocter before. Oh, those crazy Germans!

I say go for it !!

But hey, what would I know, I've been sucking down hard cider all evening while watching the Simpsons. I'm going to bed!

Krusty.

 

[Madison Alum]

Interesting looking missile. It should be a cool looking rocket, Go for it.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Well I am suitably clued up now.....having pored over some of my eldests stuff. There were two versions of this missile. The R1 and R3. I would build R1 as a single stager. It looks like it will be a massive challenge. i suppose I will have to learn Rocksim so ai can work stuff out like weights.

Lots of bits needed so working the scale out to whats available and keeping the weight down will be a challenge. I was kind of hoping someone more techy than me might have said ' dont be soppy.....it will be impossible and besides it wont fly right etc etc'

Can I blame you two when it goes wrong

 

[fyrwrxz]

Good Lord, girl! Those nose fins are going to be tricky with the aerodynamics and there should be enough 'fiddly bits' to keep you (and us) entertained for months! Far be it from me to discourage your project as I would watch you build anything from a firetruck to a Christmas tree. I truly love and enjoy your build threads. Go ahead and blame ME-I'll enjoy the ride just as much! Best-dave

 

[mikemech]

Blame anyone you want. But it's really your kids fault. Make him (her) work with you. Go for it!

Mike

 

[JAL3]

Feeling rather smug at having completed the afliskits Thunderbird I am seeking the next project. I was going to build a Sea Dart from scratch bu my eldest has suggested something more whacky and I have become a bit daring about this and thought why bother making a scratch build which isnst really a scartch, just a rehash of an Estes kit.

Soooooo I am going to have a go at building a true scratch build.........my eldest has an obsessin with WW2 ...most brits do really to be fair and especially what might be called German Secret Weapons. So having browsed some sites, looked at some pics I am going to have a go at a scratch of a German WW2 anti aircraft missile called Rheintocter. Its a pretty looking rocket with lots of fins and looks suitably weird.

I managed to get some line drawings of it so it shouldnt be impossible to make a scale up. Biggest problem I can see is the constantly changing tube diameter but ai am sure there are others.

What do you guys think ? Am I mad ? is it possible ?

It seems to me that given the Estes V2 fans that someone would produce some of these weird looking WW2 secret weapons.

Not only are you going to build it, you are going to perfect it. You will then kit it and offer it in all sizes from 6mm all the way up to 152mm hybrid ready. You will achieve hobby rocket fame and stardom and be single handedly responsible for the burgeoning British hobby rocket industry. Your efforts will provide employment for the multitudes, make you rich and win (in the same year) the Nobel prizes for economics and the Peace Prize (your 98mm version will so fascinate various dictators that they give up conquest ambitions to pursue rocketry!). After a while, you will find that Estes, Quest, AT, CTI and Loki can no longer produce enough motors to satisfy the demand for your products so you start your own line of rocket motors and prompt another round of economic activity (and two more Nobels).

While all of this is taking place you can keep up amused with your construction efforts.

No, we are not going to discourage you.

 

[Salvage-1]

If the Germans made it fly, so can you... Look forward to seeing this build!!

 

[SteveA]

Talk you out of it? Why, oh why, would we ever do that? I can hardly wait to see it!

 

[SteveA]

Not only are you going to build it, you are going to perfect it. You will then kit it and offer it in all sizes from 6mm all the way up to 152mm hybrid ready. You will achieve hobby rocket fame and stardom and be single handedly responsible for the burgeoning British hobby rocket industry.

What Padre said.:grin:

 

[les]

You may need to "pin" the forward fins so they can rotate.
I remember a discussion where if fins were allowed to rotate, they presented a CP of about 1/4 ~ 1/3 than if they were fixed

Some info is in this thread


https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?21670-Forward-Fins&highlight=canard

 

[gpoehlein]

You may need to "pin" the forward fins so they can rotate.
I remember a discussion where if fins were allowed to rotate, they presented a CP of about 1/4 ~ 1/3 than if they were fixed

Some info is in this thread


https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?21670-Forward-Fins&highlight=canard

Actually, looking at some photos of this bird, it looks like they were intended to pivot - most likely some form of flight control mechanism. They look like they are mounted on a shaft, so making them freely pivot would even look right. As for the main fuselage, aside from the nose section, which looks to be an ogive, the rest looks to be a mix if cylinders and conical transitions. Once you have the ogive and diameter of the forward section, the rest is a fairly simple matter of creating the transitions - formulas for calculating those can be found in Stein's Handbook.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Well from reading it seems the canards were moveable and the rocket would have been ground controlled by radio. There were four different proposed methods for homing in but none were ever used. I have been googling for stuff on and off all day.

Thinkingbit through I think the simplest apprach will be one long tube that runs the length of the entire rocket. This will carry the motor, baffles and parachute. The other elements will be a mix of made up card transitions and centreingbrings which will hold an outer skin of tubes in place. The wholenfront will be a balsa cone.

It looks simple enough LOL......just have to get some bits together and work out sizing so I can use off the shelf tubes and centering rings etc.

 

[Cookie the Dog's Owner]

You may need to "pin" the forward fins so they can rotate.
I remember a discussion where if fins were allowed to rotate, they presented a CP of about 1/4 ~ 1/3 than if they were fixed

I concur. If those forward fins are fixed, you'll have the devil's own time getting your CG ahead of your CP.

It looks like an interesting challenge. Be assured I will be watching this thread.

 

[Daddyisabar]

I have always wanted to build a Rheintocter and the one in the photos has stained front fins - a real chance to let the wood grain show through. Even with free floating forward fins they are so huge some big time nose weight and power will be needed. That is a real advanced project so you must let the Force tell you if you are ready to face Vader. "But Master Yoda I have learned so much since my failure at the cave!" There are some cool plans for the four stage Rheinbolte as well.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Well someone once said to me 'if your not living on the edge then your taking up too much room'

Its weird because on the front fins I did wonder, without knowing a thing about it, if some free pivoting fins woud be best. Just intuition told me they may be a problem. I am planning to build one without the canards first and then add them and see what happens. I think this thing will be very tail end heavy anyway due to all the fins at the back end ...10 of them and to keep them rigid I am thinking basswood rather than balsa. The small ring of nozzles around the upper body between the fins is also gong to be a challenge.

I think the museum pics of it with wood fins and unfinished metal is down to it being a prototype. I als found some pics of it finished in white with red fin efges but The finished version would have dull green or with a disruptive pattern. I did think of making it as per wooden fins and silver metal finish. I will decide ai guess once ai see what the finish is like.

On the canards I wondered if making them ultra thin and maybe half scale size so they are reduced in size would help a lot.

This is going to be an advanced projec for sure and probably result in lawn darts galore. I just want a project thats going to take some time and effort, not too worried if the whole thing blows itself to bits at the end

I hae been sat here this morning thinking it through, the biggest unknown is how much power because its hard to know that without knowing what its weight will be. Am hoping to build it around a smallish motor something like a B6 so the overall size will be quite small. Currently thinking of something around 20" long so it will be quite a small thing but heavy, i am going for a low and slow kit.

Its all guesswork at the moment really. I will start working out scaling later today and draw up some plans in the week to build to and then star ordering bits up.

If nothing else it will teach my kids a bit more engineering and handicraft skills. Always ready to face Vader if he strikes me down ai will become more powerful than he can imagine

 

[TALON]

I CAN'T resist :wink: to maintain authenticity are you going to attach flares to the fins :eyepop:?
Just think, #1 it will aid in tracking #2 it would make a great night flyer

 

[Astro-Baby]

It would be nice to have flares as is a shot in the dark

I would love to have it as a two stager with clusters on the booster but that really would be pushing my skill set out. It would need gap staging for a start, bigger motors means more cost to launch and for a gamble which may not pay off I dont want to spend a ton to launch only to have a spectacular or scary firework display and 5x C mtors heading my direction at high speed

 

[dlazarus6660]

Is it finished yet?:grin:

Here is a few you might want to try.

https://www.luft46.com/missile/rheinf55.html

 

[Daddyisabar]

When it comes to model rockets I sense the National Socialist Rheintochter Rocket is surrounded by the Dark Side of the Force. There are many advanced challenges that will make it a Thunderbird X 10 in difficulty. First, it must look good, at least a "sporty scale." Second, it must be reasonably stable and all those big forward fins are a huge problem. Pivoting them may not be the CP cure all one would wish for. While pivoting does work on smaller forward fins like a sport scale Israeli Python air to air missile, the thought of the Rhientochter’s big forward paddles even moving slightly out of align is very scary, maybe even more scary than a fixed CP-CG relationship. It will have to be very light and strong on the hind end. It will have to have lots of stinking, performance robbing nose weight to have any chance at being stable (stolen gold from the waters of the Rhine would be great for this). It will need a lot of power and punch which means more motor weight in the back. One fix will lead to more problems elsewhere and the circle will go on and on. All these issues will have to be precisely balanced, which might include techniques some dogmatic purists may consider “unnatural.” Only by accepting a broader view of the Force will you be able to fly the rockets you love. Once you have mastered the Dark Art of model rocketry forever will it guide you destiny. Use your passion to build and launch the “Daughters of the Rhine,” think only of your glory at a successful flight, then you will truly have the Power of a Sith. If you successfully stage this rocket named after Water Nymphs you might find a ring of power and no one will be there to stop you from ruling the Galaxy!

 

[adrian]

If you want to see something crazy, take a look at the thing in my avatar. That's Rheinbote, a four-stager with a six-motor cluster in the first stage. By comparison to that, Rheintochter is sane.

The main snag with Rheintochter that I can see is the long, swept fins. You're going to need to be careful transporting it and you're going to want a nice big parachute, and if you do build it two stage then the booster will need a parachute as well. Which, since it's going to be a cluster, might not be a problem - some of the motor mounts can be ducted up to the sustainer and carry C6-0's while the others kick out a parachute and take C6-3's.

The CG/CP problem is easily solved with sufficient nose weight, and thrust/weight won't be a problem if you don't make it two stage because there's room for a nice big cluster in the back. This is why I could get away with the multiple sets of fins and multiple stages in Rheinbote - six C6's provide plenty of power for the nose weight needed to make it stable at launch time.

If you do decide to go for Feuerlilie first, you'll still want a cluster, for the big F55 version anyway. The rocket was originally designed to be powered by a liquid-fuelled motor but that was not available in time, so the first prototype went up on a cluster of four solid fuel motors instead. The F25 just had a single solid fuel motor. Note that the big wings on the F25 mean it too will need a lot of nose weight, but a semi-scale Feuerlilie F25 flies just fine.

 

[Astro-Baby]

Well initially I am not going for staging. It will be a single stage. Ideally I want it powered off a single mtor but the temptation is great to have a cluster at the base. I am still working up drawings but so far this week ai havent had a lot of time.

Adtain I read about your Rhine Messenger on another board/blog I think. Its a serious rocket amd hats off to you for doing that one for sure. Mucho respect.

I might build Rheintoxhter without its forward fins firts and see what happens and then add them later..maybe. Dont know yet. Its still only a glimmering in my eye. If I went for rotating forward fins I think I have sussed a way to make them work well and add nose weight at the same time.

 

[Cookie the Dog's Owner]

Is it finished yet?:grin:

Here is a few you might want to try.

https://www.luft46.com/missile/rheinf55.html

Now you've got me interested in taking a shot at the F55 Feuerlile.

 

[adrian]

Well initially I am not going for staging. It will be a single stage. Ideally I want it powered off a single mtor but the temptation is great to have a cluster at the base. I am still working up drawings but so far this week ai havent had a lot of time.

Adtain I read about your Rhine Messenger on another board/blog I think. Its a serious rocket amd hats off to you for doing that one for sure. Mucho respect.

Thanks!

Definitely put a cluster into Rheintochter. For one thing, it would be a shame to build something with a rear end like that and not stuff six motors into it. For another, if you do decide to add the forward fins later, you're going to need the power.

Now you've got me interested in taking a shot at the F55 Feuerlile.

Anyone wanting to build the Feuerlilie (either version), please PM me. I contacted the author of the Luft46 site some time ago about doing the same and he kindly sent me a couple of very useful documents...

 

[Screaminhelo]

I'll add my name to the blame list! I really enjoyed your work on the Thunderbird and I believe that you could pull it off, just take it one piece at a time.

I do have one suggestion that may make the build easier. Building it in stages anyway may make some of the design elements easier to execute during construction. Mind you that this suggestion comes from someone who is still working on getting good fin fillets

 

[Screaminhelo]

I was just playing around with OR and the solution to the fwd surfaces is already in the concept. It appears that the the fins on the tail balance out the effect of the control surfaces. This is based on my very limited experience with OR and rocket design but it appears that it will be very do-able. You may not be as crazy as you thought.

Bill

 

[Fred22]

Cant wait o see how this one goes along. I think you will do well.
cheers
fred

 

[boomtube]

Rube Goldberg, eat your heart out.
Looking at the Rheintocter; you can easily see the future of Soviet era rockets.

 

[Larry Curcio]

Rube Goldberg, eat your heart out.
Looking at the Rheintocter; you can easily see the future of Soviet era rockets.

It's really just a TFNC

-Larry (Twelve fins and a nose cone) C.

 

[boomtube]

It's really just a TFNC

-Larry (Twelve fins and a nose cone) C.

Actually it’s a TFNCWFF; Twelve Fins and a Nose Cone With Four Fins.