# So, what is the biggest thing holding you back from getting your Level One HPR Certification?

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##### Member
TRF Supporter
Yesterday was my L1 Certification launch. I went to MDRA in Maryland, and I have never felt so welcome, never felt so much like I belong in my life. I CANNOT speak more highly of the people I met there, I CANNOT exaggerate how helpful they were. Go to a club launch. It feels like home.
Most rocketry clubs that I've ever been involved with absolutely love it when someone comes by and wants to look!

The few times I've seen a rocketeer or club get grumpy with a stranger is when the stranger keeps talking about "blowing things up" and other untrue stereotypes after being gently (sometimes not so gently) corrected.
Thank you both for the push. I just went and joined both NAR and TRA. Will see about joining the local clubs once I have membership cards. I'm guessing I won't have the paperwork in hand in time to make the Texas Shootout a fortnight from now, but I should be able to attend some launches later in the summer and see how the parts of HPR I'm fuzzy on work.

And who knows, maybe L1 sometime in the next year?

#### Steve Shannon

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Thank you both for the push. I just went and joined both NAR and TRA. Will see about joining the local clubs once I have membership cards. I'm guessing I won't have the paperwork in hand in time to make the Texas Shootout a fortnight from now, but I should be able to attend some launches later in the summer and see how the parts of HPR I'm fuzzy on work.

And who knows, maybe L1 sometime in the next year?
Welcome to Tripoli! The receipt from joining either one is all you need. Just put TBD wherever it asks for your membership number. You should have your Tripoli card within ten days or so.

##### Member
TRF Supporter
Thanks, Steve! That's good to know. I have that weekend mostly free, and the Texas Shootout looks like a great event to learn a lot from many people.

#### dr wogz

##### Fly caster
@Rory Gin
@RocketTree

I'm in Montreal, and have spoke with Rocket tree. I know your pain! My suggestion to you both "Look south" there are more club in the US, and you may just find one 'over the border' rather than drive into a different time zone.. (or pass the Giant Teepee in Medicine Hat!)

#### Jim Goodridge

##### New Member
TRF Supporter
Ah, yes that would be a challenge. Too far from Alberta or southern Ontario. Bummer. Close to Dryden or Thunder Bay? (One of my bosses is from there.)
Rumour has it that Manitoba Rocket Group is looking for a HP location. If they select an area by Brandon then I'd be there like a dirty shirt (3+ hrs travel from Regina).
I’m by Saskatoon, do you go to Lethbridge? I haven’t been ,but am planning to go once COVID is done. I fly low power on our acreage.

##### Active Member
Thanks, Steve! That's good to know. I have that weekend mostly free, and the Texas Shootout looks like a great event to learn a lot from many people.
Tripoli North Texas is a great group of people.

#### samb

Thanks, Steve! That's good to know. I have that weekend mostly free, and the Texas Shootout looks like a great event to learn a lot from many people.
You’re welcome to the NAR side whenever it’s convenient.

Dallas Area Rocket Society

#### Nytrunner

##### Pop lugs, not drugs
TRF Supporter
Based on the club emails floating around recently, at least here in HARA's region, rained out launches are a hurdle for several folks

How do people typically go from zero to flying L1 and beyond?
For someone that doesn't have a nearby club or circle of rocketeers, Read, read, research, and read.
-Learn the high power requirements, identify which org will best serve you (Both certify for high power, NAR has interestes in for low/mid power flying and contests, TRA has reserach motor flying and extreme high power projects)
-Learn about motor impulse classes, how to read thrust curves, different brands and types of motors (singlue use? DMS? Reloads? Aerotech? Cesaroni? Loki?)
-Read around the forum and look at how folks have done their L1 rockets (or most 29mm and any 38mm motor mount rocket). See what interesting features you'd want to incorporate, learn from their mistakes, etc...

Don't be afraid to ask questions. There'll always be the prickly elitists, but there are a ton of helpful folks around that will answer and help out

#### Rory Gin

##### Well-Known Member
I’m by Saskatoon, do you go to Lethbridge? I haven’t been ,but am planning to go once COVID is done. I fly low power on our acreage.
I will be - I'd love to get to Rock Lake in June. I will have my second vaccine shot long before that and hopefully the rules get relaxed by then.

##### I don't do spirals
TRF Supporter
'ware the prickly elitists

#### Funkworks

##### Well-Known Member
We’ve all been there at one time or another. So, what is the biggest thing holding you back from getting your Level One HPR Certification?
Easy: Unrelated questions about hybrid motors. After I've invested $1000 or so on hybrid equipment and I can teach hybrids to someone, I'll answer those exam questions about hybrid motors. #### Antares JS ##### Professional Amateur Easy: Unrelated questions about hybrid motors. After I've invested$1000 or so on hybrid equipment and I can teach hybrids to someone, I'll answer those exam questions about hybrid motors.
Pretty sure Tripoli reduced the number of questions on the test about hybrids during the recent revamp. Also, level 1 does not require the test; level 2 does.

#### Rory Gin

Easy: Unrelated questions about hybrid motors. After I've invested $1000 or so on hybrid equipment and I can teach hybrids to someone, I'll answer those exam questions about hybrid motors. Excellent. I've never even see a hybrid motor but my L1 CAR exam has a bunch of questions on hybrids Stuff I have no clue on. #### Funkworks ##### Well-Known Member It's like asking a gym class question on math test or vice-versa. Playing with the students so they don't leave saying it's easy exam, and trying to give the impression they're smarter because they passed it themselves. Edit: What I would propose of course is to have a separate exam for hybrid systems, as an optional rating once you get L1, L2 or L3 (like a night flying rating or a twin-engine for pilots - these are optional and can be done at any time after a minimum number of flying hours has been logged - one pilot can fly for decades without ever learning to fly at night, but an other can optionnally get that rating in the first year). Last edited: #### heada ##### Well-Known Member Questions about hybrids should never have been added and they should be removed. No certification process requires the use of any kind of motor and so since they're not required, you shouldn't be required to have a working knowledge of them. #### Woody's Workshop ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter We’ve all been there at one time or another. So, what is the biggest thing holding you back from getting your Level One HPR Certification? The lack of having a club close enough to me to make it happen is the #1 reason. Money would just be matter of time, and time is what I have limited only by life itself. I have a few rockets built that just need some paint, with dacals in the file cabinet. #### Steve Shannon ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Questions about hybrids should never have been added and they should be removed. No certification process requires the use of any kind of motor and so since they're not required, you shouldn't be required to have a working knowledge of them. Because being Level 2 is one of the only prerequisites to serving as an RSO, the test questions may include subjects that an RSO might need to know, which could include hybrids. As mentioned previously we did reduce the number of questions about hybrids to reflect the greatly reduced frequency of use since we won the lawsuit. #### Joshua Smith ##### kernelsmith TRF Supporter Thanks, Steve! That's good to know. I have that weekend mostly free, and the Texas Shootout looks like a great event to learn a lot from many people. FWIW, I don't know anyone in rocketry either, even tho I'm in the local NAR club (AARG out of Austin) for a couple years now and on the mailing lists for it and Triploli Houston. I don't usually make it out to Houston as I have nerve problems that make long drives really suck (it actually hampers my build time too). However, I do plan to make the drive to Seymour for the Texas Shootout, I'll just have to stop frequently. I really want to buy an RV so I can actually get up and walk around while someone else is driving. I have accumulated some good online sources of info while lurking on the mailing lists, which are themselves a great resource. I'll type them up if you'd like #### Cape Byron ##### The BAR formerly known as Skippy-2 TRF Supporter The lack of having a club close enough to me to make it happen is the #1 reason. +1 on that. #### bad_idea ##### Member TRF Supporter However, I do plan to make the drive to Seymour for the Texas Shootout, I'll just have to stop frequently. I really want to buy an RV so I can actually get up and walk around while someone else is driving. I have accumulated some good online sources of info while lurking on the mailing lists, which are themselves a great resource. I'll type them up if you'd like Weather permitting, I should see you there. My biggest problem is not information but the need to see practical applications in person, so I'm glad this thread pushed me past my usual inertia. I'm always happy to know of more resources though, online or otherwise (for instance I recently discovered Mike Westerfield's "Make High-Power Rockets", which complements my well-thumbed copy of Mark Canepa's "Modern High-Power Rocketry 2"). I'm sure others sitting on the fence like I have been could also make use of anything you posted. #### Joshua Smith ##### kernelsmith TRF Supporter Weather permitting, I should see you there. My biggest problem is not information but the need to see practical applications in person, so I'm glad this thread pushed me past my usual inertia. I'm always happy to know of more resources though, online or otherwise (for instance I recently discovered Mike Westerfield's "Make High-Power Rockets", which complements my well-thumbed copy of Mark Canepa's "Modern High-Power Rocketry 2"). I'm sure others sitting on the fence like I have been could also make use of anything you posted. I've found YouTube quite helpful, altho you have to dig a little since the rocketry topic usually get overshadowed by SpaceX, NASA, Apollo 11/Saturn V etc. * Rocket logs: https://youtube.com/user/TIRrocketry * FlyFalcons: https://youtube.com/user/flyfalcons * Jim Jarvis' latest NARCon talk: * NASA did some decent coverage of the basic math in a short series on high power: * Oh, and Apogee Components videos: https://www.youtube.com/c/apogeerockets/playlists * 2 podcasts: * The Model Rocket Show https://www.audible.com/pd/B08K57LSB2 * and The Rocketry Show https://www.audible.com/pd/B08K59GR53 I've also been reading "Large and Dangerous Rocket Ships: The History of High-Power Rocketry’s Ascent to the Edges of Outer Space" by Mark Canepa https://a.co/20xdRe7 Mainly because I'm a Born Again Rocketeer from the 80's and I was oblivious to the history of high power, esp the lawsuit against the ATF etc. Last edited: #### Precision3D ##### Active Member TRF Supporter It's fine if you have a fair amount of disposable income like most people in rocketry do. But when you live on SS Income with lots of medical bills and leaving almost no money for rocketry, then having to buy another motor just like the one you used before, and driving a couple hours to launch again, gas, etc. The people who make all these rules are not in my position and they literally have lots of money to burn. They make their decisions based on the fact that they have good jobs providing them with lots of spendable income with absolutely no concern over people who are financially strapped and having medical collections calling them weekly. I got my Level 1 back in 2012 before I lost my health, lost all my money in savings, and then going 5 months with ZERO income, try that out.... selling all my personal things I spent a lifetime buying. But this is pointless in my position to even mention this to everyone who is oblivious to this kind of life, when they are living the good life. I relate to this very much, although I probably didn't get hit nearly as hard as you. But I agree , too many people with deep pockets seem to think that those who are broke don't belong. It's sad to see that ,as a lot of us may not be able to fly every launch or go to every event. Maybe we can only fly once or twice a year. Saving the$50 or $100 extra a month we have if we are lucky or land on one of those 5 week months where we get that extra money. The biggest thing I see being frustrated is why I went with NAR , is the fact that one day I will cert level 3 and that Is a very expensive endeavor. I don't want to have to re-certify once I hit level 3. I may one year be struggling and have to cut rocketry or my other hobbies out and it would suck to have to spend the$1500+ to re cert level 3.
I’m very sorry for what you’ve gone through. When you’re ready to recertify let me know and I’ll have a vendor send you an H motor.
The financial crisis for many this past year is exactly why we extended the time to five years.
Best wishes,
You're a very kind person Steve!
An L1 Certification flight is really just a flight with someone watching over your shoulder. If I drop out for a period of time I would like to have someone keep an eye on me that first flight. I’m pretty sure I could do it, but why not have an extra pair of eyes to watch for something stupid. I would fly exactly the same flight I would fly if I didn’t have to re-certify so there would be no difference in cost.
I do understand that money is tight for many people and I do sympathize, but you’re right, a person cannot have it both ways. Flying anything is an economic decision, but L1 recertification does not cost one more cent than simply taking up flying again. In both cases you fly a rocket. Nobody has ever been charged to have a Prefect, TAP, or director watch and sign.
Similar points for the other two levels.
I agree up until level 3 , as level 3 is a lot more that goes into it and is a much bigger expense. It would be nice to see that if a person is formerly a level 3 and lost their cert due to not renewing, maybe allowing them to fly their rocket they used for their level 3 and not having to rebuild another level 3 bird would be nice as that could easily cut their level 3 re-cert by half or more depending on the kit and motor they decide to fly on.
Level 1 and 2 you already are allowed to fly the kit you built before. And the motors are WAY cheaper than a M.

#### tomsteve

##### Well-Known Member
So, what is the biggest thing holding you back from getting your Level One HPR Certification?

i got my L1 back about '98. i was making good money back then. had a nice fleet of rockets and supplies,had a great time attending and flying with michigan team-1 at 3 oaks, ithica, and a few other locations. AIRfest in kansas was wicked awesome.

fell out of rocketry for a few years starting about 2002.kept my fleet and supplies,though.

decided in 2014 i was getting out of it and sold off a lot.

got back into it 2016 but sticking with low.mid power.
why?
1- i get more for my money. my old THOY nighthawk- if i were to still have it and launch in on 3- G125s and 4- G25s, lookin at about \$200 in motors( plus i think id have to have cases for the G25s now).
my cluster duck on 7 BPs? not quite as much and still a rush.
2- i like watching other people doing the L1-3 flights. i get as much of a rush out of it as i would if i did it myself and it costs me a lot less.
3- there was a point when i was with team-1 i realized walking across plowed farm field to shag a rocket wasnt the funnest thing to do. my knees are older now. they dont like plowed farm fields.

#### Tim51

##### Well-Known Member
walking across plowed farm field to shag a rocket
?!? I'm just hoping this is one of those occasions when a word in American English means something very different than in English English.

#### Cape Byron

##### The BAR formerly known as Skippy-2
TRF Supporter
?!? I'm just hoping this is one of those occasions when a word in American English means something very different than in English English.
Maybe he's collecting a rocket that's shagged?

#### tomsteve

##### Well-Known Member
shag(transitive verb)- to chase after and return.

#### samb

In context: "Willie Mays was pretty good at shagging flys."

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Or:

#### hobie1dog

I've lived in the Carolina's for 28 years but never knew all about that dance. Heard lots of people talk about it. I was never a dancer

#### bibbster

##### Well-Known Member
Having the local club actually get together. It's been over 2 years since I finished my L1 rocket. Have all I need to launch, just need the second set of eyes.