Smoke?

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n3tjm

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I was wondering if it is a violation of the NAR safety rules to install smoke balls the outboard tubes of my Magnum, where the fuses will be lit by the motor? The idea is so after the motor burns out, I would get some tracking smoke when flown with an AMW motor that has no smoke.
 

jetra2

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I've always thought of this idea also. I would personally say smoke balls are OK, as long as they don't fall out!

Jason
 

jflis

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caution!

I beleive smoke balls/bombs are classified as a firework (unless something has changed). I think they're class C, but still a firework. That would void their use in model rocketry by default
 

sandman

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I asked this a long time ago concerning a smoke canister (6 minute smoke charge) for use in my scale Nike Smoke.

The unit is completley enclosed within the big nose cone (lined with foil insulation).

I guess I could just fly it on my own.
 

rstaff3

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Quickburst sells a smoke cannister. Maybe you should email him as he might have had these discussions before.
 

Stymye

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The R/C people use smoke charges, I would think we can too

I have some of the orange ones from Regin but I still have not determined if I can use them or not, I would like to know before I do.

they are lit by an ignitor ,rather than a fuse

https://www.regin.com/rcsmokecart.html
 

Micromeister

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This one gets a little fuzzy guys, Smoke generators are an Effect not a motor, they do not have to be certified, but all effects must be OK'ed by the RSO at the time of the flight. I've been using my stock of FX smokers in my Bomarc ramjets, I have a bunch of 30sec to 5 minute smoke generators used to check duct work airflow which are NOT classified at all that I can see, they are lite with a fuse which I'm not that happy with but can be used with a standard igniter. While the cardboard casing does get pretty warm they are ment to be hand held in the duct airflow, producing a very thick white smoke for the time listed on device.
I haven't had any problem so far with an RSO Not allowing either of these devised to be used either in a model or on the ground below the model. I may send some of these comments to the National contest board to get an "official ruleing" or at least a NAR opinion;)
 

Micromeister

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Doug:
I sent a link to this thread to the National Contest Board Chair, Tom Lyon along with a couple questions. I hope to get some kind of comments shortly. If he isn't already reading TRF maybe this will peak his intrest, he might even post the contest boards reply here if we're lucky:D If there is no policy currently written I've ask it be formally considered.

Sandman:
You build a smoke with a canister and haven't flown it yet? Man, I'd get that puppy in the air.. What a Cool effect that would be to see the smoke trail start just before burnout...HOW KEWL!!!!
Hope this helps.
 

n3tjm

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I asked the club president, he has the final word an what is allowed. So far things look good, but he asked for more info, so I showed him what I want to use, and told him how I plan to use them. I hope its a positive answer... I like to see my rockets after burnout :)
 

sandman

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You build a smoke with a canister and haven't flown it yet? Man, I'd get that puppy in the air..
Oh...It flew!:D

It was my L1 flight at Whitaker last year! But I didn't want to fly with the smoke canister lit for my L1 cert.

It flew on an H128 medium...sweet flight!
 

Chuck Rudy

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What ever happpened to those MPC FX smoke motors which had the NAR symbol on them? Seems they had gone through all the certifying process.
 

n3tjm

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They were MRC FX motors, had 10 seconds of smoke, and they really did not produce that much smoke. They were about the size of a micromax motor, maybe a little bigger.

S&T does not certify smoke generators. The only reason why they did the MRC ones was MRC wanted the logo on the motors so they will not have trouble selling them to vendors that cared about such things.
 

vjp

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I would imagine that any pyrotechnic which generates smoke *might* pose a fire hazard, if it was still burning when the rocket landed. i.e., a 10 second smoke generator would probably be o.k., but a few minutes or more would likely be a problem.

Also, what might happen if your rocket tips off the rail at a 45 degree angle, and the wind carries if farther than expected, and it winds up landing on a road, or in someone's back yard?

...not trying to pour water on anyone's ideas here, just considering the possibilities.
 

n3tjm

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Well, the rocket could vere off and land on the ground before they are done burning, but that is the same problem we have with motors with delays. I have seen many rockets land in the grass while the delay grain was still burning.
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by n3tjm
I was wondering if it is a violation of the NAR safety rules to install smoke balls the outboard tubes of my Magnum, where the fuses will be lit by the motor? The idea is so after the motor burns out, I would get some tracking smoke when flown with an AMW motor that has no smoke.
Yes, it would be a violation.

NAR code, #8: "...and will not put any flammable or explosive payload in my rocket. "

NAR HPR code, #8: "...or a payload that is intended to be flammable, explosive, or harmful."

TRA code #10 (I): "Do not install or incorporate in a high power rocket a payload that is intended to be flammable, explosive, or cause harm."

Regardless of their categorization as a firework, which varies from state to state, they are definitely flammable. No RSO would allow it.

There is such a thing as "cold smoke" canisters. See the Polecat Nike Smoke review on EMRR for an example.

You can also build a gravity/airflow powered tracking powder module that's ejection triggered, or use the idea to build it into your outboard tubes. See my "smoke can" scratch build on EMRR.
 

n3tjm

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Originally posted by DynaSoar
Yes, it would be a violation.

NAR HPR code, #8: "...or a payload that is intended to be flammable, explosive, or harmful."

... No RSO would allow it.

There is such a thing as "cold smoke" canisters. See the Polecat Nike Smoke review on EMRR for an example.

You can also build a gravity/airflow powered tracking powder module that's ejection triggered, or use the idea to build it into your outboard tubes. See my "smoke can" scratch build on EMRR.
Its not explosive. And I would not concider it a payload; a payload is the cargo of the rocket... usually has nothing to do with the functioning of the rocket. Like the flamable rocket motor itself; it has a cruicial function. I don't want to do it for coolness. I want to do it because I want to see my rocket to apogee. They will be installed like rocket motors; and as such, they are no different then rocket motor... except maybe a little different; because smokeballs do not explode... like G35's...

RSO's have aloud it... thats why I asked. I wanted to see your guys opinion. I even contacted the Club president to see if CMASS will allow it; and right now there is a very lively discussion about it (and most of the people in the discussion are also in the NAR S&T committee)... so far the answer is not no... but there are other concerns.

One of them are the smoke balls legal in MASS, since they are sold as Novelty Fireworks. The suggestion of smoke candles, which are not concidered fireworks have also been brought up.

Tracking powder idea is impratical for this application.

The general purpose is to add tracking smoke when my Magnum is flown with an AMW motor that has no smoke...

I thought about buying a 54mm bulkead that has a tracking smoke well... and some tracking smoke elements from AMW... however.. the 54/1050 was not certified for such a change... and even though AMW wouldn't mind me doing that, that is a violation because that would modify the motor....

my 3 cents.
 

Stymye

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Doug did you look at the site I posted ? the smoke is environmentally safe and there is no staining because the compound does not contain oils ..also you can set them off with an igniter rather than a fuse mabey even with a timer, and you have alot of colors to choose from....If the r/c people use them there should be no questions about field safety in my opinion

they don't put off sparks like a fuse and they don't get hot enough to ignite anything on the ground.

annother reason...they are 24mm dia and can be cut to length

I doubt those toy smoke balls are made to very strict standards
 

n3tjm

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Opps. Missed that link. Sorry. I took a look at it, and their on the pricey side... and their burn is on the long side.
 

Stymye

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yea a little pricey but,

you can cut them in lengths to shorten the burn time and to get many more smoker flights from each
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by n3tjm
Its not explosive.
It is flammable

And I would not concider it a payload; a payload is the cargo of the rocket... usually has nothing to do with the functioning of the rocket.
The rocket functions identically without it.

Like the flamable rocket motor itself; it has a cruicial function. I don't want to do it for coolness. I want to do it because I want to see my rocket to apogee. They will be installed like rocket motors; and as such, they are no different then rocket motor... except maybe a little different; because smokeballs do not explode... like G35's...
Smokeballs are fireworks. Sparklers are fireworks and do not explode. They're the only fireworks legal in some places, but they're still fireworks.

In fact, they might be considered "aerial fireworks displays" by the FAA. Best look that stuff over too.

RSO's have aloud it... thats why I asked. I wanted to see your guys opinion. I even contacted the Club president to see if CMASS will allow it; and right now there is a very lively discussion about it (and most of the people in the discussion are also in the NAR S&T committee)... so far the answer is not no... but there are other concerns.

One of them are the smoke balls legal in MASS, since they are sold as Novelty Fireworks. The suggestion of smoke candles, which are not concidered fireworks have also been brought up.
Smokeballs are legal fireworks. That doesn't make them legal to fly. The rules don't say it this way exactly, but

In an RSO actually allowed them, they took it upon themselves to risk everybody's NAR or TRA insurance for that launch. And that's an important point.*

Tracking powder idea is impratical for this application.

The general purpose is to add tracking smoke when my Magnum is flown with an AMW motor that has no smoke...

I thought about buying a 54mm bulkead that has a tracking smoke well... and some tracking smoke elements from AMW... however.. the 54/1050 was not certified for such a change... and even though AMW wouldn't mind me doing that, that is a violation because that would modify the motor....

my 3 cents.
The tracking powder idea as presented may well be impractical. There can be any number of alternatives. How about a cap in the bottom of the pod with a burst diaphragm, and venting ejection charge into the pod to burst the valve? I never buy "it won't work" because I make things work. There's always a way.

* You can do and fly anything you want as long as it fits the government regulations and nobody can tell you you can't. NAR and TRA may say that, but it really means that if you do these things you're covered by their insurance, and that you may not state that it's an NAR or TRA sanctioned event. If you go outside their rules, you're not covered. If an RSO says yes to something that's not allowed, the entire chapter or whatever risks losing its coverage for that launch. If they're a NAR/TRA approved RSO and they do this, I suspect they could get their RSO certification taken away. You, however, and as many people who want to participate in any activity that doesn't conform to the NAR/TRA rules if you're willing to take responsibility for the results, which means having your own insurance (and actually a lot of people do or can) or being willing to shoulder the liability 100%. I have some Aerotech G110 motors. They lost their certification in 1996 because AT stopped making them and didn't get them recertified. I have every intention of flying them, but retracted a request to do so at a club launch for this reason. When I do fly them I will be doing so under coverage of my homeowner's insurance.
 

n3tjm

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Thanks for your input.

I made a similar reply to what you responded to on the club mailing list, and I got an interesting respose. Its not concidered a part of the propulsion device; its part of the recovery system (Why didn't I think of that?).. E-matches; Bp. Those are flamable. Carried in a rocket. Its accepted due to the fact that its part of the recovery system.

There are smoke canisters that are not classified as fireworks. For example, the ones stymye pointed out... Or suggested on the club discussion: The smoke candles (4093K14) listed on this page. 30 seconds is a bit much... but... it will still be burned out long before the rocket lands...

Anyone know how big these things are? Will they fit in a 29mm tube?

I just talked to Joel from AMW.. they said their smoke for the 54mm closure does not leave much of a visible smoke trail... its mostly for a delay....

I think smoke charges for rocket motors is a must... a typical rocket uses up its fuel in the first quarter to third of its flight... Majority of the flight its just a moving dot in the sky...
 

jflis

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Well, bottom line is, we're all offering our "opiinon" based on your question, but it is really nothing more than our opinion.

The easy solution is to send this question off to the NAR and get an "answer".

Think about it, if you want to know if your auto insurance is going to cover you if you drive your car with a kid sitting on the roof of the car (yea, a weird example... :) ), you wouldn't ask folks at a car-buff web site, you'd ask your carrier.

Frankly, I wouldn't bother with it until I had some firm answer from my carrier and I would be upset with any RSO that would allow it without such assurances.

Also, (personal opinion here), because of the nature of the risk (loss of insurace for that launch), it would not be fair (ethical?) to risk everyones insurance by trying to fly such a configuration without a firm response from the NAR
 

DynaSoar

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Originally posted by n3tjm
Thanks for your input.
And thank you for putting up with my rant graciously

I made a similar reply to what you responded to on the club mailing list, and I got an interesting respose. Its not concidered a part of the propulsion device; its part of the recovery system (Why didn't I think of that?).. E-matches; Bp. Those are flamable. Carried in a rocket. Its accepted due to the fact that its part of the recovery system.
Definitely. Propulsion systems are approved as a whole unit. Can't add anything to them.

There are smoke canisters that are not classified as fireworks. For example, the ones stymye pointed out... Or suggested on the club discussion: The smoke candles (4093K14) listed on this page. 30 seconds is a bit much... but... it will still be burned out long before the rocket lands...

Anyone know how big these things are? Will they fit in a 29mm tube?
Zackly! I don't know if a smoke candle and a cold smoke canister is the same thing or not. If not, there's two alternatives. Try contacting Michael Dennis, who contributed the Polecat Nike Smoke review on EMRR and find out where he got his and how they work. His two articles are from 7/1/04, so Nick @ EMRR should have a good address for him (if he saved it). He might not feel right about giving it out, so you could ask him if he'd forward your question. The Nike Smoke article says these were for water rescue. That should give you an idea where to look.

I think smoke charges for rocket motors is a must... a typical rocket uses up its fuel in the first quarter to third of its flight... Majority of the flight its just a moving dot in the sky...
I agree completely. I've been messing around with different methods of trailing tracking smoke and even glitter. I need to be able to see the path of a couple of my rockets: they're test beds. I need to see how they're acting during coast. Yes, ascent tracking is a very important part of any rocketry beyond the sheer sport type.

BTW, the glitter has been a wash out so far, except for ejection packs. They do a great job of marking ejection with a high visibility cloud. For ascent, it hasn't worked at all yet.
 

quickburst

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It all depends on the RSO. Some are OK with it and some are not.

I have seen them fly many times.

D Bachelder
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QuickBurst
 

Micromeister

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Like Jim mentioned all the above chatter is opinion. The Question has been ask, we are now waiting an official responce from the NAR Contest Board and S&T. As soon as something is released I'll post it here if they don't directly;) Dyna; geeze you really do need to calm down and be a little patient the Nar like every other orginization takes time to answer complex (safety oriented) questions. Some of the comments are good others are so far off base I wonder where it comes from. Personally I perfer to ASK the question and get some kind of offical answer before going off the deep end;) pink book lawyers tend to be wrong about 70 percent of the time:D If you'd really like to help....send Tom Lyon an e-mail asking if he's heard anymore from S&T on the subject. A friendly nudge my be all that's needed.
 

Micromeister

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Originally posted by n3tjm
Opps. Missed that link. Sorry. I took a look at it, and their on the pricey side... and their burn is on the long side.
Doug:
Believe it or not Regins prices are about the same as McMaster-Carrs smoke generator (smoke candles) used for ductwork flow and leak detection. A 30second #4093k14 - 4000cuft of smoke runs about 3.30 if bought individually. These 30sec variety are about 1.5" in dia and about 2.5-3" long. I've used a couple of these in the not so distant past, Each puts out a very dense grey-white cloud of zinc-chloride mist, Non-toxic, non-staining, but they will leave a white ring on the ground if pointed down during operation. These are fuse ignited but can be rigged with a standard solar igniter. I'm not sure if they are even listed as flamable, my shippment came in a standard UPS box without any haz-mat lables. During operation the cardboard gets warm but not to hot to hold in your hand.

Stymye I think Regin's is the place i've been trying to find, Thanks for the Link:D

I spoke yesterday with Tom, He hasn't heard back from Jim at S&T yet, he'll get with them again early next week. As you mentioned the discussion is more about smoke balls then the smoke candles and wording. sounds pretty positive to me...Keep everything you have 2 of crossed, maybe something next week.
 

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yes doug, smoke balls are completely legal in MA, just like sparklers and snakes. also, those little poppers that you throw at the ground, and caps, for cap guns. they're completely legal to use and light off within this state. not only that, but the smoke balls that they sell at the beach do not burn through their case, AND their case only gets MILDLY hot, no where NEAR the heat of a used motor just after flight. i would see no problem with it as long as they are mounted correctly and nothing is obstructing their smoke outlet(where the fuse usually goes)
i had a link that detailed what was legal in this state when i was questioning the legality of IED's.(improvised explosive devices) but i have since lost it. i'll try to find it again.
 
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