Smith and Wesson

[ksaves2]

For anyone who is interested, I received an email from Smith and Wesson announcing a new Model 29 is again for sale. It's $1300.00+ bucks but if you want to own a
"Dirty Harry" gun, now's the chance.

If I remember in the movie, Clint Eastwood mentioned he allegedly fired 44 Special rounds out of his Model 29. I don't have one and never fired one but folks have told me a 44 Mag round kicked like an S.O.B. 44 Special not as much. Sounds logical in a close quarters urban combat situation. Wouldn't want a magnum round pass through a perp in close quarters and hit an innocent bystander. Still a 44 might be too much in close quarters law enforcement unless the round velocity is controlled.
Same thing with a 45. As long as one can hit a perp at relatively close range hit something vital, drop 'em and be done with it. Just as long as the round doesn't pass through and hit somebody else who's innocent.

Shoot, I'd worry about a .357 Mag firing full loads out in public at bad guys. I have to say, I'm not a gun person but my paternal grandpa was. He wanted to take me out shooting but my dad nixed that. Dad was in the National Guard just before Korea and fired a variety of automatic weapons. I still have the manuals on the 30 cal and 50 cal Browning M2 machine gun! The M2 is still in service in some form if I understand it correctly! He fired a Thompson sub machine gun and said it was more of an "intimidating" weapon to keep the enemy's head down as it was hard to fire full automatic with accuracy. The barrel always wanted to go up and one had to be ready to pull down on the fore stock to try to aim the weapon "somewhat" in the right direction. The 20 rounds didn't last long and the 100 round drum was awkward and heavy to carry.
Of course being a .45 probably didn't help but allowed the action to cycle more or less properly. Plus with every air-cooled machine or submachine gun, one had to worry about barrel heating.

An employee of my father's who was in the National Guard somehow brought an M-14 to show to my Dad after hours at our home. It was unloaded of course and I got to hold it. Man, it was a heavy S.O.B. but again I was like about 11 years old.

I think my father didn't want his kids to "worship" firearms and didn't do "gun stuff" with us like hunting. Actually living in the suburbs there was no safe shooting range nearby or place to hunt game. So I remained gun ignorant except what I could read.

Dad let his enlistment lapse in the Guard as he did his time and could see having to go to Korea. He was also in love with my mother whom he married in 1950. Hence, I'm here!

I did question Dad about the National Guard and he said during WWII there were Guard units in just about every small town in America. He was too young to serve in WWII as he graduated high school in 1947. Served in the interim which probably saved his life as he could foresee having to go off to war. He wasn't a coward, he was "smart". Did his time and got out.

Heck, I'm in a small town and there is a National Guard unit here. They're a transportation unit so essentially a bunch of truck drivers who know how to use guns!
That's not a derogatory comment either as the troops need to be supplied and I respect anyone serving in the military.

The local Guard unit was called up during the Gulf War to haul stuff over there and the local "communities" rallied around to help the families left at home! It reminded me of the comradery my mother talked about during WWII. She was a teenager then as was my Dad. Folks who had men in the service, neighbors tried to help out as much as possible. Kurt

 

[SolarYellow]

S&W's quality is so spotty that I can honestly say I've yet to handle a brand new one in the store in the past six-eight years that didn't have something I could tell was not right without even having measuring tools. I've personally owned some horror shows from them, some of which were able to be fixed, some of which were not.

S&W, with help and encouragement from Lipsey's, created the ultimate carry J frame. (They actually call it that.) On a gun forum where this was pretty much the holy grail of S&W releases, the consensus is that about 30 percent of them don't work right without being sent back to S&W at least once (sometimes multiple trips) to be fixed.

Just making sure people here are warned.

 

[TheTank]

S&W's quality is so spotty that I can honestly say I've yet to handle a brand new one in the store in the past six-eight years that didn't have something I could tell was not right without even having measuring tools. I've personally owned some horror shows from them, some of which were able to be fixed, some of which were not.

S&W, with help and encouragement from Lipsey's, created the ultimate carry J frame. (They actually call it that.) On a gun forum where this was pretty much the holy grail of S&W releases, the consensus is that about 30 percent of them don't work right without being sent back to S&W at least once (sometimes multiple trips) to be fixed.

Just making sure people here are warned.

Agreed. Ive had better luck with their “Performance Center” releases but thats also paying a premium on top of what I consider a premium price for what you get.

 

[SolarYellow]

Agreed. Ive had better luck with their “Performance Center” releases but thats also paying a premium on top of what I consider a premium price for what you get.

One of the most spectacularly bad experiences I've had with their product was a “Performance Center Pro Series Model 640" that was missing a manufacturing step and utterly non-functional (with circumstantial evidence that the entire inventory of the major dealer I bought it from had the same condition). I couldn't understand how it ever left the factory.

There's also a lot of discussion that “Performance Center" hasn't meant what it originally meant for a very long time. It's just a section heading in the catalog; the guns are built using the same processes and personnel as any other gun.

 

[rfjustin]

FUDDs love revolvers.

 

[Art Upton]

One of the most spectacularly bad experiences I've had with their product was a “Performance Center Pro Series Model 640" that was missing a manufacturing step and utterly non-functional (with circumstantial evidence that the entire inventory of the major dealer I bought it from had the same condition). I couldn't understand how it ever left the factory.

There's also a lot of discussion that “Performance Center" hasn't meant what it originally meant for a very long time. It's just a section heading in the catalog; the guns are built using the same processes and personnel as any other gun.

I had the PCP series 45ACP with the lighting slide. The tube for the safety spring kept falling off and I would re-tack it with the tool. After twice I sent it to them. Then it fell off again.

The two magazines it came with were cheap and one broke the floor off. The lady in Customer Service said magazines are hard to come by. I sold it at a loss.

As for BFG revolvers, this makes honeydew melons vaporize in 454 Casull. Dual cylinder locks of course.
I have not shot it since shortly before covid. That has to change... I have the ammo...

To carry it I had to use a Chest Holster that went diagonal across me.

 

[TheTank]

One of the most spectacularly bad experiences I've had with their product was a “Performance Center Pro Series Model 640" that was missing a manufacturing step and utterly non-functional (with circumstantial evidence that the entire inventory of the major dealer I bought it from had the same condition). I couldn't understand how it ever left the factory.

There's also a lot of discussion that “Performance Center" hasn't meant what it originally meant for a very long time. It's just a section heading in the catalog; the guns are built using the same processes and personnel as any other gun.

Wow… that’s spectacularly bad. I havent bought an S&W in quite some time. Based on what you are saying, they have really fallen off the wagon.

 

[bjphoenix]

As for BFG revolvers, this makes honeydew melons vaporize in 454 Casull.

That thing makes a pretty big bang. One thing you can say is you definitely know when it goes off, no question about it. Taurus now has the new version of that called the Raging 460, and it also fires the 454 as well as the slightly more powerful 460. Growing up I read in some books about the history and development of the 454, they started developing it using the Colt SAA and had a lot of failures. A person can come up with reasons for the power of the 44 mag, or the 454, or the 460, but most people don't actually need the power.

If you like revolvers and have lots of spare cash the current Python is supposed to be pretty good. I'm the guy who launches D and smaller motors so doesn't apply to me.

S&W and others make complicated mechanical gizmos and a lot of them have problems. I watch a lot of youtube videos and I've seen problems with most brands. H&K is one of the brands that seem to always produce a good product but they don't follow the trends as closely so aren't the darlings of the influencers. There are a lot of current S&W products that follow current trends and seem to work very well.

 

[SolarYellow]

H&K is one of the brands that seem to always produce a good product but they don't follow the trends as closely so aren't the darlings of the influencers.

H&K USP and derivatives are the one model of handgun that I would take out of the box, throw in some lube, and start shooting. Everything else gets checked over completely before being put into service.

 

[Art Upton]

That thing makes a pretty big bang. One thing you can say is you definitely know when it goes off, no question about it. Taurus now has the new version of that called the Raging 460, and it also fires the 454 as well as the slightly more powerful 460. Growing up I read in some books about the history and development of the 454, they started developing it using the Colt SAA and had a lot of failures. A person can come up with reasons for the power of the 44 mag, or the 454, or the 460, but most people don't actually need the power.

I have made Full power 45 Long Colt loads, Hot Rodded them, and you don't even notice recoil

Sorta like putting in 44 special in a 44 mag.

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

l

 

[RocketT.Coyote]

Got to fire a .44 Magnum at an outdoor fair once. Quite a poke! I've found that a lot of folks buy .44 Magnums for hunting, but can't afford to shoot them much. Ammo used to be sold in 20-round boxes by Remington. Don't shoot it myself, but handload for a buddy, so he's quite proficient now. He bought the dies for me too. Most of the loads are 240 grain SWC, but also crafted some 180 grain JHP and 265 grain JSP. Shot capsules are available but sell out quickly before they can be ordered.

 

[KenECoyote]

Personally, I feel that something like a 45acp, 38spl, 9mm or 380 is best for self defense vs. a cannon caliber.

I'm not a big guy, so forget about carrying a cannon lol.

IMHO Firing a cannon caliber in self defense where you don't have the luxury of hearing protection is pretty horrible and damaging, and shot placement when you're on super edge is very hard. Plus the large muzzle flash would temporarily blind you in a dark room.

BTW - I do have a Deagle .50 cal (original Isreali manufacture) and have fired the full mag, but indoors requires double hearing protection since regular electronic muffs still left my ears hurting and ringing. Accuracy is pretty poor for my example, however, I love very accurate hand guns, so I'm spoiled. Muzzle blast is pretty cool though lol

 

[RocketT.Coyote]

Saw a club member shooting .454 Casull in a Ruger .460 Super Redhawk. Prolific muzzle flip. Handloads of .45 Colt sometimes don't seat well, though they gauge just fine. So .45 Schofield becomes an option (aka .45 S&W).

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

Personally, I feel that something like a 45acp, 38spl, 9mm or 380 is best for self defense vs. a cannon caliber.

I'm not a big guy, so forget about carrying a cannon lol.

IMHO Firing a cannon caliber in self defense where you don't have the luxury of hearing protection is pretty horrible and damaging, and shot placement when you're on super edge is very hard. Plus the large muzzle flash would temporarily blind you in a dark room.

BTW - I do have a Deagle .50 cal (original Isreali manufacture) and have fired the full mag, but indoors requires double hearing protection since regular electronic muffs still left my ears hurting and ringing. Accuracy is pretty poor for my example, however, I love very accurate hand guns, so I'm spoiled. Muzzle blast is pretty cool though lol

Correct, I carry a 9mm of some varrient, normally my early 90's Star Interarms made in Alexandria Virgina

 

[SolarYellow]

BTW - I do have a Deagle .50 cal (original Isreali manufacture) and have fired the full mag

The full mag? I have a buddy with a Deagle. I have a reasonable expectation that the number of times I can get six shots off without a stoppage from any of my six shooters is more than the number of times he can get six shots off without stoppage from the Deagle.

With the 9mm semis and quality ammo on the market today, it's difficult to make an argument for anything other than 9mm and .38 Special as defensive rounds. The .32 H&R is making a boutique "comeback" due to Lipsey's and S&W working together. Federal has a new round coming out for it, and the Lipsey's guy is going to be bending all the ears at Speer he can during the shot show to do some neat stuff in .32.

 

[rharshberger]

H&K USP and derivatives are the one model of handgun that I would take out of the box, throw in some lube, and start shooting. Everything else gets checked over completely before being put into service.

H&K USPs were my preferred pistols for many years. Love them, though my EDC is a M&P Shield .45.

 

[KenECoyote]

With the 9mm semis and quality ammo on the market today, it's difficult to make an argument for anything other than 9mm and .38 Special as defensive rounds. The .32 H&R is making a boutique "comeback" due to Lipsey's and S&W working together. Federal has a new round coming out for it, and the Lipsey's guy is going to be bending all the ears at Speer he can during the shot show to do some neat stuff in .32.

Heck, even a .22lr is possible to use and better than nothing.

If I move to FL or TX, one of my first purchases will likely be a high capacity .22magnum Keltec PMR-30.

Regarding .22 for self defense - my past shooting trainer and friend (a retired police chief who won service pistol shooting competitions using his snub nose service revolver against FBI agents with Glocks) said "I wouldn't want to be shot with one!" Lol

 

[KenECoyote]

The full mag? I have a buddy with a Deagle. I have a reasonable expectation that the number of times I can get six shots off without a stoppage from any of my six shooters is more than the number of times he can get six shots off without stoppage from the Deagle.

Sorry, I forgot to answer this part.

Mine has been 100% reliable and that was a strong point with the design (at least for the original Isreali made ones). When the design was sold to Magum Research, I recall there were a lot of problems with the first bunch of years.

 

[techrat]

Personally, I feel that something like a 45acp, 38spl, 9mm or 380 is best for self defense vs. a cannon caliber.

And I prefer a .22LR pistol.
They are small and light, you don't need to kill the guy you are pointing at, but you can -- there are plenty of Youtube videos that show that .22 is plenty deadly, even at fairly long ranges. The recoil is next to nothing, and the ammo is dirt cheap. What, like $17 for a box of 100? Unless the guy coming at you is a linebacker, you don't need the stopping power of large calibre.

A lot of people buy big guns for the same reason they buy a giant truck or a loud motorcycle.
But I doubt I can say the reason in this forum without being censored.

 

[KenECoyote]

And I prefer a .22LR pistol.
They are small and light, you don't need to kill the guy you are pointing at, but you can -- there are plenty of Youtube videos that show that .22 is plenty deadly, even at fairly long ranges. The recoil is next to nothing, and the ammo is dirt cheap. What, like $17 for a box of 100? Unless the guy coming at you is a linebacker, you don't need the stopping power of large calibre.

A lot of people buy big guns for the same reason they buy a giant truck or a loud motorcycle.
But I doubt I can say the reason in this forum without being censored.

.22lrs are actually my favorite, followed by .38spl and then .45ACP.

The accuracy of a .22lr can be phenomenal and that can be enough of an advantage to overcome the small caliber.

Here are two NAAs... the Black Widow on the right has .22lr and .22 magnum cylinders and has a laser.

The tiny buckle one is a .22lr and is like a noisy cricket lol

I see pluses and minuses to most things. I have Miatas, a Rav4 Hybrid, as well as a built V8 GX470 Overlanding brute. I love lp as well as hp rockets.

My personal favorite on this topic is a Taurus snub nose .38spl that I bought used, but can do one hole 6-shot groups at 7 yds. Very light, compact, accurate, reliable and easy & cheap to shoot.


Plus it's semi-fancy!

 

[Tommie D]

Correct, I carry a 9mm of some varrient, normally my early 90's Star Interarms made in Alexandria VirginaView attachment 689146

Is that a model 30 ?

 

[David Schwantz]

Nothing personal Ken , but you are wrong about the .44. I have 3, all Taurus, the 444, the Raging Bull and the Ultra Light Scandium frame. All shoot great, the Bull is nothing due to its large counterweight under the barrel, and large grips. The 444 is a blast due to 4" barrel that is ported. I have had complaints at the range due to its loud report. But when shooting in the heat of an engagement, you do not even hear it. Otherwise, yes , without ears on it physically hurts. It has saved me 3 times while bear hunting, with the last 2 being in pitch black tracking a bear. Ever been in the bear woods at night, you cannot see the hand in front of your face. And even though there is a lot of muzzle flash, you are NOT blinded by it. Bear might be though. I also reload, 180 JHP with 30.9 grains of H110 ignited by CCI 350 Magnum primer. For bears I shoot Buffalo Bore hardcast ammo. Learned that lesson the hard way when I had to put 11 holes in one to stop it. With the hard cast out of the Bull, at 30 yds, put one square in the chest and it came out the left butt cheek.

 

[KenECoyote]

Nothing personal Ken , but you are wrong about the .44. I have 3, all Taurus, the 444, the Raging Bull and the Ultra Light Scandium frame. All shoot great, the Bull is nothing due to its large counterweight under the barrel, and large grips. The 444 is a blast due to 4" barrel that is ported. I have had complaints at the range due to its loud report. But when shooting in the heat of an engagement, you do not even hear it. Otherwise, yes , without ears on it physically hurts. It has saved me 3 times while bear hunting, with the last 2 being in pitch black tracking a bear. Ever been in the bear woods at night, you cannot see the hand in front of your face. And even though there is a lot of muzzle flash, you are NOT blinded by it. Bear might be though. I also reload, 180 JHP with 30.9 grains of H110 ignited by CCI 350 Magnum primer. For bears I shoot Buffalo Bore hardcast ammo. Learned that lesson the hard way when I had to put 11 holes in one to stop it. With the hard cast out of the Bull, at 30 yds, put one square in the chest and it came out the left butt cheek.

Actually, I was thinking more in the lines of firing in a dark bedroom or hallway.

I was originally going to add that those big calibers are what I would carry if I were out in the woods with any big predators. Outdoors is fine and my note about the Deagle was when it was indoors.

Funny topic because yesterday I saw videos of a moose attacking a snowmobiler (he had to shoot the moose since it was charging a second time), as well as an idiot getting close to a wild polar bear to take pictures or video on some base (hopefully not AI).

Edit add: Dirty Harry wasn't hunting bears.

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

Is that a model 30 ?

No.... it's the rare M-43

 

[KenECoyote]

Nothing personal Ken , but you are wrong about the .44. I have 3, all Taurus, the 444, the Raging Bull and the Ultra Light Scandium frame. All shoot great, the Bull is nothing due to its large counterweight under the barrel, and large grips. The 444 is a blast due to 4" barrel that is ported. I have had complaints at the range due to its loud report. But when shooting in the heat of an engagement, you do not even hear it. Otherwise, yes , without ears on it physically hurts. It has saved me 3 times while bear hunting, with the last 2 being in pitch black tracking a bear. Ever been in the bear woods at night, you cannot see the hand in front of your face. And even though there is a lot of muzzle flash, you are NOT blinded by it. Bear might be though. I also reload, 180 JHP with 30.9 grains of H110 ignited by CCI 350 Magnum primer. For bears I shoot Buffalo Bore hardcast ammo. Learned that lesson the hard way when I had to put 11 holes in one to stop it. With the hard cast out of the Bull, at 30 yds, put one square in the chest and it came out the left butt cheek.

One more to add it that there's a school of thought that the best self defense caliber is the largest one that you are capable of firing and handling and are able to practice firing a LOT.

So basically it can differ by individual. I would not want my 5' daughter firing a 44 magnum for self defense, but if you're like Dwayne Johnson, you probably can use a pair!

 

[David Schwantz]

Actually I have tried 2 at once. Ain't like the movies

 

[Tommie D]

What's so rare about your model 43 ? They made about a zillion of them.

No.... it's the rare M-43

INTERARMS was the importer, Stars were made in Spain.

 

[3stoogesrocketry]

What's so rare about your model 43 ? They made about a zillion of them.


INTERARMS was the importer, Stars were made in Spain.

No that's my fault "rare" but auto correction. It's like the rare F150s or Toyota Camerys . Sorry lost humor in translation

 

[WizardOfBoz]

My Dad never wanted a gun in the house: he was afraid he'd use it. I never have ever considered open or concealed carry, as I suspect it would be more likely that there would be an accident than a real need. Then again, I'm 6'2" and 245lbs and played defensive end in the big 10. An opportunistic criminal will choose someone else.
So a question is: how many times have folks here felt threatened enough to use lethal force? I'm sure that there are horror stories. But I wonder if having a sidearm (especially if the load is 44 mag - holy cow!) causes more problems than it solves.
Not an anti gunner - I have a .45 cal Glock and an M1 Garand*. But I often think having a gun at hand causes more problems than it solves. What's your experience?