# Small Rocket

### Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Im looking for a small 18/24mm rocket that I could build over this upcoming week. I am looking for a small rocket , something like a nice , OOP kit from Estes . I dont have much experience with OOP kits but im sure plenty of you guys do. Any help would be great!

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
A Der Red Max or Der Big Red Max.

Parts are readily available, Excelcior (Astronboy) has decals, a BT-60, an 18mm motor mount, a parachute, a PNC-60AH (same cone as the Mean Machine, some Red and Black paint.

Oh yea...here

https://www.dars.org/jimz/est0651.htm

sandman

#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Well as I've never done either of these before I think I might try a downscale or upscale . I've always wanted to upscale the Dueces Wild to 24mm , but with the lack of powertools at the moment I think im stuck with upscaling a Der Red Max Right......Where to start?
heres where I get all my rocketry parts from , could anyone tell me what I would need from there to upscale the Der Red Max to house a 24mm motor?

#### Fore Check

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Karl
Well as I've never done either of these before I think I might try a downscale or upscale . I've always wanted to upscale the Dueces Wild to 24mm , but with the lack of powertools at the moment I think im stuck with upscaling a Der Red Max Right......Where to start?
heres where I get all my rocketry parts from , could anyone tell me what I would need from there to upscale the Der Red Max to house a 24mm motor?
The Der Red Max is a superb flyer built otherwise stock, but with a 24mm D engine mount. If you want a Red Max, but D engines, build it according to the plans but replace the stock engine mount with a 24mm mount. That's what I did!

I was looking at the parts available from the online source you linked to above. I don't see the PNC 60AH nose cone needed for the Red Max. Apollo 11 does show a part number "APN-60bn" that in their parts list elswhere describes it as "Genuine Estes PNC-60 Blue Ninja Profile." This is the cone you need.

As far as the other parts, you'll need an ABT-50 body tube for the engine mount (you will cut off a 2.75" long piece for use, the remainder will come in handy on later projects); a pair of ACR-5060f "For Centering ABT-50 In ABT-60, Fiber"; an AEB-50 engine block "For D Engines"; an AEH-02 engine hook "For A, B, C, and D Engines"; an ALL-0101 launch lug "For 1/8in [3mm] Diameter Rods"; an ABT-60 body tube "Equivalent to Estes BT-60 [41.6mm]" which you will cut an 8.5" length of for use on this rocket; and some ABS-0108 balsa fin stock "12 x 4 x 1/8in [305 x 101.6 x 3.18mm]".

You will also need recovery materials - shock cord and parachute.

Now, their parts list shows an AET-50mf engine tube "For D Engines, Foil Lined" under their engine tubes. You will notice that this tube is 17" long. In a Der Red Max, you will only want a minimum length engine tube (2.75" long.) In this application, I'd say that a foil lined tube would be overkill and un-necessary. However, if you do decide to go that route, you will need the appropriate centering rings (ACR-5060mf "For Centering AET-50mf In ABT-60, Fiber") instead of the ones I described above.

Again, the DRM is a great flyer on D engines built otherwise stock, with no additional nose weight needed.

Good luck!

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
Upscaling a Der Red Max is another story.

A BT-70 would be a good size or even a BT-80 (better) for a 24mm motor.

The problem is the nose cone.

Nobody makes and upscale of the PNC-60AH nose cone...no wait...I do! LOL! PM me your request.

sandman

#### Fore Check

##### Well-Known Member
Hmmmm.....

How about a BT70 DRM with a 3x24mm mount?

#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Right Im doing what OKTurbo did and made it interchangeable with a BT-80 BT.
Im sure I can get all the parts from Apo11o bar the nosecone ( sandman ) .

OKTurbo : The interchangeable mmt's , how where they made ? And how did you fill the grain on the nosecone so perfectley?

#### OKTurbo

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
The nose cone was filled with good old Elmer's Fill-n-Finish. For nose cones, I make up a fairly runny batch by mixing the FnF with water. It spreads real nice this way, but it's way too wet for fins...they'll warp...solid balsa nose cones are fine. I smear it on....let it dry....sand it down....repeat if there's any spots left...etc. No big secret. Just a lot of patience.

The MMT's are made using regular BT70 sized motor mount kits like the ones that are available from ThrustAero or Fliskits. I used a BT70 coupler between the centering rings to make it a "unit". The BT70 tube fits inside the outer BT80 Body tube with thru the wall fins attached to the inner BT70. I added hooks so the MMT's could be plugged in and out.

Good Luck,
John

#### Karl

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Hmm im not sure where to get one of those from! Could I just make one using some scrap BT ect?
Karl

#### OKTurbo

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I checked out your link to Apo11o and it looks like they'll have most of the parts you need.

A 24mm motor fits in a BT50 tube. To make a single engine motor mount you'll need a BT50 tube, a BT70 coupler, and two 5070 centering rings.

____| |____ BT 50
| | | | 5070 Centering Ring
| | | |
| | | | BT70 Coupler Tube
| | | |
| | | |
|____| |____| 5070 Centering Ring
| |

Plus an engine hook if that's how you want to retain the motor.

If you want to make some cluster mounts, all you'll need is to find some cluster centering rings.

#### OKTurbo

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
hmm...that ASCII dwg didn't turn out to well.

It looks good when I'm in edit mode?!?

#### Fore Check

##### Well-Known Member
Hey John:

When replying, try surrounding your ASCII drawing with "{code}" and "{/code}" - with the "{}" brackets replaced with the appropriate "[]" brackets.

You get:

Code:
/---\
|   |
|   |
\---/

The "code" makes all characters take up the same horizontal space, including spaces, and recognizes multiple spaces.

See?  S      E      E      ?

Yes, I'm a geek forum user.

#### Fore Check

##### Well-Known Member
Here's your post, quoted, with the "quote" removed and the "code" added.

--------

I checked out your link to Apo11o and it looks like they'll have most of the parts you need.

A 24mm motor fits in a BT50 tube. To make a single engine motor mount you'll need a BT50 tube, a BT70 coupler, and two 5070 centering rings.
Code:
  ____|     |____         BT 50
|    |     |    |        5070 Centering Ring
|    |     |    |
|    |     |    |        BT70 Coupler Tube
|    |     |    |
|    |     |    |
|____|     |____|        5070 Centering Ring
|     |
Plus an engine hook if that's how you want to retain the motor.

If you want to make some cluster mounts, all you'll need is to find some cluster centering rings.

-------

It should be noted that using this method, you have to count spaces, rather than make it look right in the response editing window. To make that ASCII drawing look right, it actually looks like this in this response editor (if you hit the "quote" button on this response you'll see what I mean):

____| |____ BT 50
| | | | 5070 Centering Ring
| | | |
| | | | BT70 Coupler Tube
| | | |
| | | |
|____| |____| 5070 Centering Ring
| |

A handy trick is to make your ASCII drawing on the "notepad" text editor, and then cut and paste - and don't be alarmed when it doesn't look right after you paste it (this being a good example.)

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
OK, let's try this picture.

I'm trying to show a BT-80 main body with a BT-70 inside.

The BT-70 is the inner motor housing tube.

The interchangeable motor mount goes into the BT-70.

All of the motor mounts have a BT-70 tube coupler joining the two centering rings.

Does that make sense?

I don't show engine hooks are used (at least two) to hold the interchangeable mounts in the rocket.

You can make your own longer engine hooks by using the stainless steel strips off of used windshied wiper blades. Bosch blades have the best size steel strip.

sandman

#### hokkyokusei

##### Well-Known Member
What did you use to draw that sandman?

#### cydermaster

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by sandman
Does that make sense?
Makes perfect sense to me. I've been trying to sus-out how to do interchangable mounts, for a while. That diagram/explanation made the concept finaly 'click' into my head.

->insert smiley with light bulb turning on above it<-

Cheers Sand!

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
What did you use to draw that