SLI Questions

[dr wogz]

A few questions in regards to the NASA SLI program / event. We get a few teams per year at our field for a launch. Always interesting to see what they’ve produced! And that got me thinking more about it. A few questions to the teams, the mentors, or anyone who can answer them:

Where does one start?

Is this open only to US schools, colleges, Universities? Do other countries (Canadians) come to participate? Does anyone know of a similar contest in Canada?

How does the school get involved? Is it the student’s initiative to get themselves enrolled, assemble the team, get an instructor involved? Or is it the other way around (the school put out the feelers for interested students & their mentor?)

Instructor / mentor: does he/she have rocketry experience? Or do they generally gain it as the team builds & competes? (I also assume a reoccurring team will have the same instructor, and will have as much experience as gained thru mentoring a few teams, but nothing, really, to the depths or passion some of us get into it..)

Funding? I assume there is some sponsorship, and a certain amount of school budget allotted to the venture. Other means of revenue?

I ask, because I just found out the college I’m attending for some part time classes, has a ‘model rocket course’. No, I don’t know much about it, as all I can find on the school’s site is the course number & course outline. No times, instructor, contact, etc. (I’m going thru the registrar’s office to get info.. a slow process!) But maybe this is something I can ‘give back / pay forward’ if they are interested in such a venture..

I’ve found the NASA SLI program PDF on line for the 202 year (looked like this starts in about mid-year..) But nothing really after that. I will continue to look.. any & all info / personal experience is greatly appreciated!

 

[Nytrunner]

For the last few years I've been lucky enough to join the NAR range crew. Very convenient since it's relatively in my back yard

It is limited to US institutions at this time (probably something to do with federal funding or that kind of thing)
I don't believe there's a Canadian rocket competition, although Canadian teams can compete in the Spaceport America Cup (IREC)

As far as starting, the RFP comes out in August, and university teams submit their proposal by September (see the student handbook and schedule)
I follow the facebook page and usually get reminded through its updates

The team is required to have a L2 certified mentor. This can be very helpful in getting them up to speed on the basics of high-power rocketry and safety consideration.
(a downside is if the mentor makes them copy whatever he/she does on their rockets and some of the innovation of the experience is lost)
-The teams are required to launch a subscale flight test, and then a full scale flight test on their competition motor. They fly under the mentor's certification.
-Some schools have a space hardware or rocket club with members that carry experience year-to-year, other schools approach it as a senior design project and the teams are new each year (with only the faculty advisor and mentor carrying through)

I think any team can solicit corporate sponsorships (if you're a big name school, easy. Others, not so much)
Some schools have resources they put towards the project (lucky)
Some schools may help but the remainder lies with the students to raise
Some teams are totally student funded through fundraising or out-of-pocket (my experience as an IREC competitor),
And then there's the really sticky schools which give the team a "budget" to draw from and require any funds raised by the team to go to the college's entire student projects fund.

John Lyngdal is on the forum occasionally. He's a good reference too since he's been running the range crew for the last X years

 

[dr wogz]

IREC! thanks!

will look it up!

 

[Nytrunner]

IREC! thanks!

will look it up!

IREC/SAC has 10k' and 30k' categories.

Commercial motors, research motors, solid, hybrid, liquid allowed.

Not sure if they require a flight test nowadays. Chat up @tfish and some of the other desert flyers for more on it

 

[ThreeJsDad]

A Buddy of mine mentors a team at the University he teaches at. When he was at Statesville Community College they did very well even competing against the likes of MIT,RPI, Cal-Tech and others. He is a great instructor and has been flying for years. They do a lot of their launches on our club field. He has also coached TARC teams that did very well. Quite a few kids who have flown with out club have gone on to do some very cool stuff in Aerospace.

I really wish my kids had an interest in this kind of stuff, all three are art and music nerds...

 

[Dipstick]

There are actually quite a few Canadian teams, Victoria, UBC, UofCalgary, McGill that I know of off the top of my head...UofC has attempted test flights at our AB sites a couple times, but the IREC flights are at Spaceport New Mexico.

 

[dr wogz]

There are actually quite a few Canadian teams, Victoria, UBC, UofCalgary, McGill that I know of off the top of my head...UofC has attempted test flights at our AB sites a couple times, but the IREC flights are at Spaceport New Mexico.

Bruce, let me ask you this then:

As for the school teams you've mentioned, where to they compete? How are the teams created?

I've tried searching for both Concordat's team & McGill's team, but no info found.. And, as initially mentioned, my local college seems to have a rocketry class' but I have no idea how to find out if they have a team.. or even if they are interested in one. Do the students approach the board, or does the board reach out to the students? Do teams fail because of little to no awareness? interaction? lack of place to "practice" budget? etc.. While I am asking the registrar's office, I kinda feel like I'm asking my cat to calculus.. "You wanna do what with who in which synagogue?!"

 

[dr wogz]

I stand corrected, I can find info of both concordat & McGill.

But how do I know if they want help? if they need help? (except for $$$..)

Maybe, despite the desire to help them, I best just be a spectator..

 

[slohand]

Queen's here in Kingston has a team

https://engineering.queensu.ca/news...aunch-for-queens-rocket-engineering-team.html

EDIT: They have a youtube channel and a Facebook page but I can't access those from work Wonder how long before they block the TRF ???

 

[tfish]

They are trying to organize a contest in Canada https://www.launchcanada.org/

I think they are having trouble getting it going.

It can't hurt to reach out to Launch Canada or each of the teams to see if you can help in any way.

I help out with SLI and Spaceport America Cup....SAC

Here's a list of teams for this years SAC https://www.soundingrocket.org/uploads/9/0/6/4/9064598/sacup_2020_accepted_teams_public.pdf

Tony

 

[dr wogz]

They are trying to organize a contest in Canada https://www.launchcanada.org/

I think they are having trouble getting it going.

It can't hurt to reach out to Launch Canada or each of the teams to see if you can help in any way.

I help out with SLI and Spaceport America Cup....SAC

Here's a list of teams for this years SAC https://www.soundingrocket.org/uploads/9/0/6/4/9064598/sacup_2020_accepted_teams_public.pdf

Tony

Thanks Tony for eh launch Canada link. I've reached out a few times to them. (I have better luck fishing with a bottle cap!)

Seems like it's dead, something about only a few teams, getting to the launch field, and that regs in Canada are a little more stringent than in the US, making such an event difficult.

It doesn't look like the website's been updated in about 2 years..

 

[DAllen]

A few questions in regards to the NASA SLI program / event. We get a few teams per year at our field for a launch. Always interesting to see what they’ve produced! And that got me thinking more about it. A few questions to the teams, the mentors, or anyone who can answer them:

Where does one start?

Send me a PM and I can get you a contact email for SLI.

Edit: To be quite blunt, the team was already up and running by the time I got involved so how to start is not something I can't comment too much on I guess.

Is this open only to US schools, colleges, Universities? Do other countries (Canadians) come to participate? Does anyone know of a similar contest in Canada?

How does the school get involved? Is it the student’s initiative to get themselves enrolled, assemble the team, get an instructor involved? Or is it the other way around (the school put out the feelers for interested students & their mentor?)

I would assume that SLI is open to Canadian teams. The only thing is, there are restrictions on foreign nationals but that only becomes a factor when touring the Marshall Flight center in Huntsville which is a military installation. Other than that, I would think you'd be ok. As far as how the students get involved it really depends on the school environment I guess. At ND they have some sort of event (cannot remember what it's called) where different student clubs and organizations set up booths at the beginning of the school year and talk about their activities. This is how they recruit new members. ND has a pretty good engineering program so getting new members on the team is pretty easy for them. A lot of it is word of mouth.

Instructor / mentor: does he/she have rocketry experience? Or do they generally gain it as the team builds & competes? (I also assume a reoccurring team will have the same instructor, and will have as much experience as gained thru mentoring a few teams, but nothing, really, to the depths or passion some of us get into it..)

IMHO a mentorship is not for someone with little experience and really ought to be an experienced L2 flier. We have instructors that are involved but only in a cursory way - just sort of keeping an eye on things. My role is keeping close tabs on construction and making sure they aren't doing anything dangerous. I also act as sort of a resource for where to get materials and provide advice on specific build techniques. What sort of adhesives to use where, how to attach shock cords, how to make us of shear pins, look over the sim files to make sure it's stable, etc. I try very hard not to get involved in the design and am more focused on making sure everything is safe.

I also act as a liaison between the team and the local club. I help them with scheduling launches because when they need to fly may not always work with the club schedule. The other big thing is handling all the "energetics" as NASA likes to call them which is getting the motors and making the ejection charges.

Funding? I assume there is some sponsorship, and a certain amount of school budget allotted to the venture. Other means of revenue?

Some of the funding for my team comes from the University but the bulk of it comes from sponsorship. I would suggest starting locally to get funding and go from there. Don't be discouraged with a small budget. Do the best you can with what you have. It's really amazing what can be engineered when funding is tight.

I ask, because I just found out the college I’m attending for some part time classes, has a ‘model rocket course’. No, I don’t know much about it, as all I can find on the school’s site is the course number & course outline. No times, instructor, contact, etc. (I’m going thru the registrar’s office to get info.. a slow process!) But maybe this is something I can ‘give back / pay forward’ if they are interested in such a venture..

I’ve found the NASA SLI program PDF on line for the 202 year (looked like this starts in about mid-year..) But nothing really after that. I will continue to look.. any & all info / personal experience is greatly appreciated!

If you become a mentor be ready for really nutty ideas. Try to always encourage those ideas and think along the lines of, "well, why wouldn't that work?" instead of summarily dismissing what they come up with just because that's not the standard way to do it. Students are often sources of boundless energy and enthusiasm and that can rub some folks the wrong way so being a mentor is not for everyone. I'll keep an eye on this thread...

-Dave

 

[Nytrunner]

would assume that SLI is open to Canadian teams.

I checked the Informstion page on the .gov site. It is only open to US institutions currently.

 

[dr wogz]

Yes, that's what I read / understood too. the IREC & SAC are open to anyone..

 

[Zeus-cat]

We now require all SLI teams that plan to launch at one of our events bring their rocket to one of our weekly meetings for inspection. If they show up at a launch and we have never seen their rocket they will be turned away. We have had a number of sub-optimal launches from these teams.

Personally, I think the goals for these teams are too aggressive. They expect teams to go from essentially no or very little rocketry experience to launching 50 pound rockets in a matter of months. It wouldn't bother me at all if my club banned them from our field.

 

[DAllen]

We now require all SLI teams that plan to launch at one of our events bring their rocket to one of our weekly meetings for inspection. If they show up at a launch and we have never seen their rocket they will be turned away. We have had a number of sub-optimal launches from these teams.

Personally, I think the goals for these teams are too aggressive. They expect teams to go from essentially no or very little rocketry experience to launching 50 pound rockets in a matter of months. It wouldn't bother me at all if my club banned them from our field.

Sounds like a good solution to this is getting experienced mentors on board to help them out. If they aren't getting any experienced help from outside the team then obviously launching 50 pound rockets with no experience is no bueno. This is why I am so heavily involved in the ND program to prevent suboptimal flights and ensure what they are doing is, in fact, safe. I feel like while we've had our fair share of failures nothing has ever been truly hazardous due to neglect or inexperience since my involvement.

The SLI program is pretty aggressive but its really up to each team to decide how vigorously they want to chase after the outlined goals. I feel like they have to make it aggressive to get a little bit of scoring separation between the top teams. Again, this is where an experienced mentor can be such a huge asset to help reign them in a little to make sure they aren't over-extending their experience.

 

[dr wogz]

An update:

Dave, I don’t think a PM is necessary at this point, but thank you for reaching out. Your last point above truly is what I want to help with...

It looks like the only challenges for “international” students is IREC / SAC. A Canadian equivalent was started, but doesn’t seem to have any traction. (According to a CAR member, only a few teams signed up, and getting field permission was difficult) So, despite the website, this looks dead.

I’ve reached out to both the McGill & Concordia Uni teams, asking if they want help, Concordia came back with “yes”, but nothing more than that..

I have finally gotten the instructor’s name for the course at the local college (what started this all .. again!), and have sent a feeler off to him, offering help & mentoring. Whether he takes it or not is up to him. Now, we all hear of under funding for schools & programs. I'm offering some help. Whether they want it or take is another matter.. Whether they are aware of such a competition is also .. up in the air.. (I also fear a 'perfesser' declining my request, as it'll 'show him up'.. showing there is someone less educated who know more than he/she..)

I am L2, and help out quite a bit at our club. I seem to be sought out for opinions, methods, how to’s, etc..!! It’s also in my nature to help & teach & educate.. I've been told I'm personable, and easy to approach.. So, I kinda feel the ‘need’ to give back. (does that make sense? )

I’m a model maker and engineering technologist, so I have a fairly decent respect & experience when it comes to the assembly of things. Again, something I feel I can 'pay back’ at this point in my life!

From what I understand, some of the local teams suffer, as the only “local QC club” launches just 3 or 4 times a year. And only have a 6k-foot ceiling.. Fields are few & far between in Canada, especially for HPR & "a mile up"..

 

[Nytrunner]

N

bring their rocket to one of our weekly meetings for inspection.

Having the opportunity for weekly meetings is a great venue for their pre-inspection, although depending on where the college is, they may not be able to get travel permission to make some of those meetings. (Plus class and exam schedules and the design reviews they already have to conduct for NASA)

. It wouldn't bother me at all if my club banned them from our field.

That would be a real shame. I certsinly hope thats not the decision that's taken. See Dave's point below I quoted. These competitions are hard enough without us hobbyists acting as gatekeepers

Sounds like a good solution to this is getting experienced mentors on board to help them out

Right on. Not to take over the design process or force them to do things the way we do, but to help them get a foundation under their feet and clue them in to the "things they dont that they dont know"

I also fear a 'perfesser' declining my request, as it'll 'show him up'.. showing there is someone less educated who know more than he/she..)

Never hurts to try! You could both benefit from this arrangement i think. You have the practical sport rocket experience, and learning more of the advanced physics and principles behind rocket flight can deepen your knowledge

 

[Zeus-cat]

Our club meets every Tuesday evening and we are about an hour from the university. Two weeks ago the university team made arrangements to come up on Friday night for our launch the next day. Several of our club members were gracious enough to meet with them and inspect the rocket.

You can't expect us to allow someone with a 55 pound rocket to just show up and launch it on an L motor. The members of this team show up a few times a year and their track record at our field hasn't been great.

 

[Nytrunner]

You can't expect us to allow someone with a 55 pound rocket to just show up and launch it on an L motor.

Actually that's exactly what I'd expect following a thorough RSO inspection.

Do your club rules require that all...i dunno K+?.... flights be pre registered and reviewed before being allowed on the field?

The student rocket competition is very different from run of the mill sport rocketry.

 

[DAllen]

Our club meets every Tuesday evening and we are about an hour from the university. Two weeks ago the university team made arrangements to come up on Friday night for our launch the next day. Several of our club members were gracious enough to meet with them and inspect the rocket.

You can't expect us to allow someone with a 55 pound rocket to just show up and launch it on an L motor. The members of this team show up a few times a year and their track record at our field hasn't been great.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you here. I'm certainly not. All you're doing is clearly illustrating the need for mentors for these teams. It would be a lot better if someone could take up that role and help them out. Its a truly rewarding experience.