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Ccolvin968

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I am building some LPR stuff again and am wondering if they are a better bang for my buck than Estes motors.
They say "TWICE THE ALTITUDE" blah blah blah. Is it just marketing?
I know some have higher impulse for their size compared to Estes motors since they are composite and not black powder.
Is it worth the extra cost?
I really wouldn't mind putting an F in my Falcon 9.
Of course, I'd simulate everything first in OR for any flight.
Just looking for overall opinions.
What do you personally fly?
Thanks guys!
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Are you talking about 24mm single-use motors like the E20 motor? I liked using those. I had a few rockets designed for Estes 24mm black powder motors like the D12, E9, and E12. They flew great on Aerotech single-use E20 motors when I had the room to fly them that high. I flew my Maxi Alpha Three and my Big Daddy on E20 motors, and they both did great. Now there are also the Aerotech EconoMax F44 motors in 24mm that might also work, but that's a lot of thrust for those rockets! What motors did you have in mind, specifically, and what rockets?
 

Nytrunner

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Estes used to have an "agreement" with Aerotech and sell 29mm F50s, G40s, G80s with the exact same geometry as Aerotech single use (ie, same product/different label). Those worked great, so I should hope these 24mm AT singles work well too.

2x the altitude just comes from the fact that a 24mm composite E fits the same size pocket as a ~D12, or an F fits where a blackpowder E would. Makes sense because each letter class can contain 2x the maximum impulse. Make some assumptions and 2x Impulse could be 2x altitude. If you switch a BP E out for a composite E of the same diameter, I highly doubt you will get "2x the altitude!"

I'd say for a more awesome flight than normal, Totally worth the cost. Just be aware that you'll have to use a bigger field and keep better track of it because it could go a LOt farther than it was originally designed for. So you may have to assume a higher risk of rocket-loss.

*note* It has been said before that the fins on the Falcon 9 desperately need some reinforcement with higher thrust motors. I'd recommend running a bead of epoxy along the whole root where it's next to the body tube. It was designed for C11/D12/E9 flights, and an F60(?) may scream at you to put it in-just to utterly shred the fins at the teeny tab connection if built stock.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Regarding "twice as high", it depends what you are comparing. The OR sims will tell you. When I first got my Altimeter Two, I flew my modified (payload section added) MAIII on 3 different motors the same day. E9 and E12 went to almost exactly the same altitude of over 500 feet, and the Aerotech E20 sent it to over 700. So it was close to 50% more. It depends on the motors you are comparing. If you are not just talking about altitude, but also considering speed and noise, the E20 motors are a new level of awesomeness. The E9 in that rocket was slow and labored taking off, but it did have a certain kind of grace and was fun to watch. The E12 took off with more speed and confidence. The E20 was so loud and fast that people came from a few blocks away to see what was going on. An F44 is out of the question on this field (actually, I don't really fly anything on the neighborhood field anymore, but definitely not loud composite motors!).
 

Ccolvin968

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Barbarian:

Yes, those are the motors I'm talking about.
I'm going to try to fly my Falcon 9 on the E20's, the E30's, and if I get another one of the kits, I'll see if I can push it to the F30 and F32 range.
I have already reenforced the F9 fins with epoxy. They are flimsy as all get out for appearance, so I would have even if I was just flying them on the E9's.
It's a really well designed kit, and the fairing is a nice payload section.
I can actually fit a JLCR with a JL Alt 3 at the same time with the parachute with room to spare... I like the kit a lot!
Just built it up in OR, so we'll see how it goes!
 

Ccolvin968

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NY, I've got you covered on that.
I remember we discussed this on my other thread.
Already reenforced the entire root chord on the outside and inside of the rocket. :)
Just gotta test it out come spring time.
Altitude and open space isn't an issue.
At our club launches we have a waiver up to 20,000 ft. and it's on a sod farm in the middle of nowhere.
Plenty of zoom zoom space! :D
 

Fred Garvin

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White Lightning and Blue Thunder are noticeably louder than BP....they all tend to start with a "pop" and a roar.
 

pyrobob

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White Lightning and Blue Thunder are noticeably louder than BP....they all tend to start with a "pop" and a roar.
Yeah, the sound of an AP motor is dramatically louder then BP's. I think the OP will be quite pleased at the results regardless of altitude achieved :).
 

Cabernut

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The E30s are great. Very loud for an E. Might scare the kids if they aren't expecting it. :dark:
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Are they really that loud?

Now I'm even more excited!
They are definitely louder than BP motors. At a club launch where you might be 100 feet from the pads, it doesn't compare to HPR motors. But when you are standing 30 feet from the pad in a soccer field, it will really wake you up! The people who showed up in the park to see what was going on were some teenagers who had been outside in their yard when it went up. They said they could hear it and looked up too see what was making the noise and saw the rocket going up. They hopped on their bikes and came over to watch a few more flights. I asked where they were when they heard the launch and they told me they had been a few blocks away. I was surprised you could hear it from that distance. Since then, I've stopped flying in the park. It's too small for most of the rockets I like to fly, and the motors I like are too loud. I've also seen enough catos and lawn darts at club launches in the years since, and I don't want to risk it in the neighborhood park!
 

Ccolvin968

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I haven't flown in my local park for that reason. It's big enough for flights lower than 500'.
I only have one rocket that will go less than 500' on the motors I buy frequently.
Here are the hazards... There is a drainage pond on two of four sides, a playground, and my neighborhood on the other side of one of the ponds.
Oh... plus a small local airport not 1000 ft. away. The park is out of the approach path, but still.
Now that I'm thinking of places that would work, there is a nice secluded park about 10 mins away.
I might go check it out!
 

Flyfalcons

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There is quite a difference in performance between an Estes black powder motor and a composite motor:

[video=youtube;ChWt3Rum7WI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChWt3Rum7WI[/video]
 

Rex R

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it is the thrust curve that makes the difference, bp motors take a while to build up thrust, while ap motors are nearly instant full thrust.
Rex
 

boatgeek

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They are definitely louder than BP motors. At a club launch where you might be 100 feet from the pads, it doesn't compare to HPR motors. But when you are standing 30 feet from the pad in a soccer field, it will really wake you up! The people who showed up in the park to see what was going on were some teenagers who had been outside in their yard when it went up. They said they could hear it and looked up too see what was making the noise and saw the rocket going up. They hopped on their bikes and came over to watch a few more flights. I asked where they were when they heard the launch and they told me they had been a few blocks away. I was surprised you could hear it from that distance. Since then, I've stopped flying in the park. It's too small for most of the rockets I like to fly, and the motors I like are too loud. I've also seen enough catos and lawn darts at club launches in the years since, and I don't want to risk it in the neighborhood park!
Our local field is a big park. When the local high schoolers launch F motors (usually F36, F42,or F59), we often see groups of joggers 50-100 yards away all turn their heads in unison to see what that noise was.
 

Ccolvin968

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That video was a real eye opener.
I'll definitely give them a try come flying season again!
Thanks everyone for your input!
 

Nytrunner

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Got a chance to test out the Chute Release on some low altitude park flights-Including the Falcon9 on a D12!
That payload bay is the greates place for it! Now I'm really tempted to get a few 24mm SUs or a 24mm hobbyline case.

[video=youtube;nch8d19xTFw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nch8d19xTFw&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 

Rex R

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Aero tech does make a D15 reload for the 24/40 case...of course once you go AP you might not want to go back to BP :).
Rex
 

Lowpuller

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Nytrunner,

I'm getting ready to do exactly the same thing.

How did you attached the shock cord? I don't like the recommended hybrid system. I'm thinking of adding an anchor in the nose cone..

How to you attach the jlcr?
 

tomsteve

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theres also an f30 blackjack motor,too, that's pretty impressive.
then the 24mm reloads. f12(24/40 case) is a cool motor.
hopin AT starts making more for the 24/60 case
 

Nytrunner

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Nytrunner,

I'm getting ready to do exactly the same thing.

How did you attached the shock cord? I don't like the recommended hybrid system. I'm thinking of adding an anchor in the nose cone..

How to you attach the jlcr?
Since the Falcon is so light, I had no qualms with doing the paper trifold mount up in the nose. I'm glad I did, because that preserved the payload fairing volume for the Chute Release and bundle.

I snipped out the cross shaped plastic in the transition, left a small nub on one side, tied one end of the Kevlar to the nub like a saddle-horn, and fixed it with a dab of epoxy.

I tied a little.loop.in the elastic between the nose piece and the chute attachment point. That allows me a space to clip on the Estimeter and thread the CR's restraint. Or you could totally just thread it around a chute shroud line
There's what I did on my little Patriot for first release test flight.
 

ttabbal

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theres also an f30 blackjack motor,too, that's pretty impressive.
then the 24mm reloads. f12(24/40 case) is a cool motor.
hopin AT starts making more for the 24/60 case
The F12 is one of my favorite motors for Estes type kits. It works well for me in anything that will fly on D12/E9 BP motors.

As it's a reload, for rockets with the motor hook, I usually use a little zip tie around the hook to make sure the case doesn't kick out at ejection. I think future builds are going to to get 3D printed screw on retainers.
 

HHaase

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Aero tech does make a D15 reload for the 24/40 case...of course once you go AP you might not want to go back to BP :).
Rex
Lots of good loads in that impulse range. D9, D15, E11, F12.
I fly the hell out of all of those loads in 24mm Estes rockets. Particularly my Mega Mosquito and QCC Explorer.

That 24/40 case is one of my best rocket investments. Just picked up a 24/60 and will probably grab 1 or 2 more 24/40's this year too.

-Hans
 

MikeyDSlagle

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There is quite a difference in performance between an Estes black powder motor and a composite motor:

[video=youtube;ChWt3Rum7WI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChWt3Rum7WI[/video]
I used the same two motors in my Big Daddy, well mine was a E20-4W, but still. Was about to compile a video to show him just like you did. So thanks, save me the trouble. LOL.
 

bill_s

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For a heavy, low drag rocket such as that Tomahawk the higher thrust gives more altitude even without more impulse. There's also versions with a lot more impulse, partially because of composite and also they have the delay and ejection unit sticking out of the front of the motor (can cause issues with Estes motor hooks). OTOH I have a low weight, high drag rocket and E9s produce the best flight per impulse and their steady sustaining thrust produces the best looking flights (you can actually see it slow down under power with a regressive thrust curve).
 

Howie

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Here's another advantage to consider with AP propellent versus black powder: BP is more CATO prone, especially at cooler temperatures. I had heard about this but experienced this first hand on a 47 degree January day last winter. I had a E12-4 in my new at that time Launch Pad Phoenix that blew the motor mount out the back and everything else out the front. Since then I have not used an Estes motor in temperatures less then 60 degrees. I have the Aerotech 24/40 Case and use the D15T and E11J as winter / spring substitutes for the D12 and E9/E12. Consider these or the SU Aerotech options if you are eager to launch this spring.

008.jpg
 

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