Single deployment with a K and L engine

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I know exactly where you're coming from Fred and as of a couple of days ago, I would've thought along similar lines - until Steve's post in another thread from the results of testing delays at different altitudes.
I guess the thing to be mindful of with typical APCP and pressure is the typical exponents associated with APCPs are less than 1, typically less than 0.5 even. So, anything with a pressure exponent less than 1 will have a upwardly curved plot on a linear scale. Meaning that the effect of pressure at the lower ranges will have a far greater influence than influence at the top end in *linear* scaling. Edit: The lower the exponent, the more pronounced that curve will be and ideally, you'd want to design a delay composition to have the lowest exponent as possible so there's less difference in burn rate between motor operation and coast mode. Especially helpful for retro work on the delay slug by the user, such as drilling out for timing reduction.
Normally you would plot this on a log scale, but I've just chosen a linear scale to highlight the effect.

edit2: this explanation might sound a bit contradictory to itself, but it's actually not. Point is, the lower the pressure exponent is, the less effect pressure changes will have on burn rates over a broad range, but the more effect small changes will have in a narrow range at the lower end.

TP
If it helps you can easily calculate the burn rate of the delay grain by looking at the total length of the delay grain and calculating the length that burns after motor burnout. Based on an estimate of 1/32 inch per second after burn out, I calculated that the burn rate of the delay (of one motor) while the motor is at pressure is about five times as fast.
 
"old white men that like to say no" ..

It seems like the "rules" are from the days before we figured out how to pack more than 2560ns into a 54mm liner.

Sure electronic deploy is better. But is there something about an L1090 that somehow makes it less safe with motor deploy than a K1050? Probably not.

AeroTech's K1050 is plugged - so it requires electronic deployment.

There are nine "K" motors for the long 2560 and 2800 cases (54mm). Seven of the nine are plugged.
The thrust profile & burn time, for the two, probably explains why they are not plugged motors.

Once you drop into the shorter 54mm cases, then you get back into motor deployment & delays.

Through years of making, testing and launching motors, AeroTech probably has a motor deployment
and delay profile for when a motor needs to be "plugged". Their long K motors are not plugged based
on the NFPA rule, but undoubtedly for some other reason.
 
AeroTech's K1050 is plugged - so it requires electronic deployment.

There are nine "K" motors for the long 2560 and 2800 cases (54mm). Seven of the nine are plugged.
The thrust profile & burn time, for the two, probably explains why they are not plugged motors.

Once you drop into the shorter 54mm cases, then you get back into motor deployment & delays.

Through years of making, testing and launching motors, AeroTech probably has a motor deployment
and delay profile for when a motor needs to be "plugged". Their long K motors are not plugged based
on the NFPA rule, but undoubtedly for some other reason.
Apologies if I mixed K1050 and K700 but I keep buying long Ks with motor deploy and every time I unpack them I think "why the F would i ever use this.." but if it works for someone else, who am i to judge.. plus 54/2560 and 54/2800 are practically the same, only a stubby short grain difference not a full grain
 
BTW there is also a difference in aerotech marking / certifying a motor as "plugged" verses it actually being plugged.. early K2050s come to mind, where they were sold as having a delay but then after a testing failure they went back and added stickers to claim it was plugged, obviously some missed or lost their stickers. to say nothing of getting the wrong nozzle but that is a different story lol
 
Apologies if I mixed K1050 and K700 but I keep buying long Ks with motor deploy and every time I unpack them I think "why the F would i ever use this.." but if it works for someone else, who am i to judge.. plus 54/2560 and 54/2800 are practically the same, only a stubby short grain difference not a full grain

K700's are also plugged. No motor deployment. I have one sitting here, along with the other K motors you have mentioned.
 
Playing devil's advocate for a minute:

Is there a path to getting things like this removed/modified in the NFPA? The more I've thought about this rule, the more I'm confused about how requiring electronic recovery makes the flight safer.

Working from the assumption the number one goal of the NFPA code is a safe flight:
1) Adding electronics add a potiental source of error. While our modern flight computers are really good they do fail occasionally.
2) The addition of electronics adds an opportunity for more human error. System configuration, batteries, connectors, etc all need to be correct for the system to work.
3) Since the number one goal is recovery deployment, all of the other advantages of electronics (deploy at apogee) are irrelevant.
4) The actual delay timing is mostly irrelevant as long as it doesn't happen during the motor burn; again, the goal is just recovery and the condition of the rocket doesn't matter as long as it lands under chute.

With all that in mind, and the fact motor ejection is extremely reliable, why force people to take the extra risk of using electronics?

Obviously, using redundant altimeter changes this and the redundancy should make a flight safer and there are other advantages to electronics (dual deploy, apogee deploy). There is also the issue that big rockets may need more black powder in the ejection charges than comes with the motor or fits in the forward closure but that issue in not intrinsic to motor ejection. The biggest issue I see with motor ejection of larger rockets is that it makes ground testing deployment charges more difficult.

What am I missing? What risks are we buying down by requiring the use of electronics? And do those risks actually outweigh the risks are adding? Should the rule be revised to require redundant electronics for large motors or eliminated altogether?
 
Motor ejection has a couple of "soft spots" in its reliability. You first have to make a reliable prediction of the delay time; Thrustcurve, Rocksim, OpenRocket. Next you have to properly adjust (drill) the delay grain. And in the case of AeroTech reloadable motors - you need to face the grain in the proper direction.

There is always someone at a launch that got the delay time wrong; too short or too long. Each has consequences - such as a zipper or a lawn dart.

Motor delays are not perfect. In this thread and others it has been pointed out that delay grains have some weaknesses.
 
There is always someone at a launch that got the delay time wrong; too short or too long. Each has consequences - such as a zipper or a lawn dart.

I agree these are real issues but in the case of a zipper I don't care because at least the flight came down on parachute. In the case of too long of a delay, a user error results in the same outcome as a user error with the electronics. The difference is that in the case of a K/L motor with a 14/18 second delay (that user failed to drill) it is unlikely that the rockets makes it back to the ground before that delay time anyway and you get a high speed deployment that is preferable to a ballistic impact.
 
K700's are also plugged. No motor deployment. I have one sitting here, along with the other K motors you have mentioned.

I have some with motor deployment. Times change, and manufacturers are not always 100% consistent.

Heck even the big bad M1939 had motor deployment in the past.
 
Playing devil's advocate for a minute:

Is there a path to getting things like this removed/modified in the NFPA? The more I've thought about this rule, the more I'm confused about how requiring electronic recovery makes the flight safer.

Working from the assumption the number one goal of the NFPA code is a safe flight:
1) Adding electronics add a potiental source of error. While our modern flight computers are really good they do fail occasionally.
2) The addition of electronics adds an opportunity for more human error. System configuration, batteries, connectors, etc all need to be correct for the system to work.
3) Since the number one goal is recovery deployment, all of the other advantages of electronics (deploy at apogee) are irrelevant.
4) The actual delay timing is mostly irrelevant as long as it doesn't happen during the motor burn; again, the goal is just recovery and the condition of the rocket doesn't matter as long as it lands under chute.

With all that in mind, and the fact motor ejection is extremely reliable, why force people to take the extra risk of using electronics?

Obviously, using redundant altimeter changes this and the redundancy should make a flight safer and there are other advantages to electronics (dual deploy, apogee deploy). There is also the issue that big rockets may need more black powder in the ejection charges than comes with the motor or fits in the forward closure but that issue in not intrinsic to motor ejection. The biggest issue I see with motor ejection of larger rockets is that it makes ground testing deployment charges more difficult.

What am I missing? What risks are we buying down by requiring the use of electronics? And do those risks actually outweigh the risks are adding? Should the rule be revised to require redundant electronics for large motors or eliminated altogether?
First of all, people talk about “the NFPA” as if it’s some government or adversarial entity. It’s not. All the rules in NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127 are there as a result of the work of the NFPA Pyrotechnics Technical Committee, which consists of representatives from the fireworks industry, Rocketry organizations, rocket motor manufacturers, government agencies, and interested private parties. Both Tripoli and NAR have primary representatives and alternate representatives on the committee. NAR’s representative co-chairs the committee. I’m on the committee as the alternate for Tripoli; Ken Good is our Primary representative. In other words, the NFPA is us.
The committee meets every couple years. Between those meeting are periods where anyone can suggest new rules or changes to rules using the tools available on the NFPA site for each standard. The committee reviews those suggestions and votes on them.
The NFPA was formed so that the people most directly involved could get together and come up with wording which could then be adopted as Uniform Fire Code. Until these standards are adopted they have no real power. When they are adopted, they are adopted as a specific revision, so you might find that one state has adopted the 2013 revision of NFPA 1127 whereas another has adopted the 2018 revision and yet another is still back at 2009 or so.
To avoid that confusion both NAR and Tripoli simply choose to comply with the most recent revision.
The rules that exist within NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127 are rules that have evolved. They started out as NAR and Tripoli Safety Code, were then written into NFPA, and have been evolving ever since. It’s highly unlikely a rule would be adopted within the Rocketry codes without NAR and Tripoli acceptance. It’s also highly unlikely a rule would be vacated without NAR and Tripoli approval.
The article by Alan Whitmore in the Tripoli Report that I mentioned a few pages back was specific in its recommendation: if you want accuracy in your apogee event, use electronics. Burning delay grains are just not very accurate. My experience reflects that. I have almost never witnessed the failure of a commercial rocketry altimeter. In the nearly 22 years since I first got into high power Rocketry I have witnessed probably hundreds of failures of delay grains in one way or another. As the manufacturers pointed out larger motors have even more delay variability. There’s a reason why experienced flyers often say “once you start using electronics you’ll never go back.”
So, no, we are unlikely to remove the rule requiring electronics for a rocket that has more than 2560 Ns total impulse.
 
Clearly the TRA goals are a "SAFE RETURN" and almost nothing else matters as seen in other aspects of the cert rules.
If the motor eject is reliable with respect to actually ejecting regardless of timing then it SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT.

Bob's "monumental task" needs to include cleaning up ALL the rules and posting them in one, easy to find, place.
 
"old white men that like to say no" ..

It seems like the "rules" are from the days before we figured out how to pack more than 2560ns into a 54mm liner.

Sure electronic deploy is better. But is there something about an L1090 that somehow makes it less safe with motor deploy than a K1050? Probably not.
At some point, regulatory agencies have to draw a line. There's no objective difference in safety between trucks with gross vehicle weights of 9,999 and 10,001 pounds, but they fall under different rules.
 
At some point, regulatory agencies have to draw a line. There's no objective difference in safety between trucks with gross vehicle weights of 9,999 and 10,001 pounds, but they fall under different rules.
Totally agree, and not trying to complain too much (certainly not the biggest problem in rocketry lol) Though I do think 54mm vs 75mm is much more sensible than K impulse vs L.

Heck, maybe J vs K or even L1 vs L2 would not be a terrible break point. probably too late tho, lots of people fly a K550 with motor deploy
 
Totally agree, and not trying to complain too much (certainly not the biggest problem in rocketry lol) Though I do think 54mm vs 75mm is much more sensible than K impulse vs L.

Heck, maybe J vs K or even L1 vs L2 would not be a terrible break point. probably too late tho, lots of people fly a K550 with motor deploy
Motor casing volume plays in here as well, a 54mm L should have about the same volume as a 75mm L if both are the same total Ns.
 
Totally agree, and not trying to complain too much (certainly not the biggest problem in rocketry lol) Though I do think 54mm vs 75mm is much more sensible than K impulse vs L.

Heck, maybe J vs K or even L1 vs L2 would not be a terrible break point. probably too late tho, lots of people fly a K550 with motor deploy
Motor casing volume plays in here as well, a 54mm L should have about the same volume as a 75mm L if both are the same total Ns.
Also, don't forget oddball motors like the Loki 54mm M. Impulse seems like as good a place to make safety based breakpoints, since we do that already for L1, L2, and L3.
 
Clearly the TRA goals are a "SAFE RETURN" and almost nothing else matters as seen in other aspects of the cert rules.
If the motor eject is reliable with respect to actually ejecting regardless of timing then it SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT.

Bob's "monumental task" needs to include cleaning up ALL the rules and posting them in one, easy to find, place.
Judge for yourself. He just announced it:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/new-tripoli-unified-safety-code.172401/
 

Just to make it clear from the link Steve posted, here is the new excerpt published in the Unified Safety Code today. No ambiguity left in it, as far as I can see:

"11-6 Any rocket with a total installed impulse exceeding 2560 Ns must have an electronically controlled recovery system which does not rely upon the motor to eject the recovery system."
 

I have read this document through a couple times now. I have judged it and it is superb. Really, an excellent document. It truly answers the "cleaning up all the rules and posting them in one, easy to find place."

I like the safe distance chart conspicuously displayed. Charts like that make it so much easier at the field.

Already printed a copy and put it in my range box with a few more copies in a folder to hand out, should the need arise.

This will make life much easier as an RSO at a launch.
 
Thank you for all the replies
Leave out the BP, and use it for your electronic deployment. FYI, Eggtimer sells an apogee-only altimeter, the Eggtimer Apogee, that you can mount in your nose cone and use along with your Chute Release. That satisfies the Tripoli requirement for L motors... at it's only $15.

Thanks for your suggestion.


from my post. I'll be attending LDRS in Lucerne this June, and I'll talk to rocketeers doing dual deployment, and from all the inputs I'll decide the route I'll pursue to launch an L engine on my rocket.
 
Back
Top