Should We "Register" Ourselves Now?

[deandome]

Absent the stifling hassle/expense of LEUPS, I actually like the idea of some kind of registration & certification process for purchasing Level 2-3 motors.

Photo ID, heck, even fingerprinting...I believe there should be SOME kind of provable "bar" the buyer has to clear to . I don't want some anonymous yahoo showing up in a hoodie @ Al's Hobby/Wildman and getting a K-M reload w/cash, no questions asked.

Do you?

So why not take Certifications a step further & have TRA/NAR require a fairly rigorous form of registration (notarized photo ID...prints (maybe)...database accessible to vendors...maybe a cheap computer background check). If needed, I'd pay $50-100 for a one-time fee for the privilege of buying/using high power motors (no, it's not a 'right', despite the ruling). Or maybe it's just getting a scan of everyone's driver's license...vendors can get a $50 machine for that.

Maybe if we come up with something like this ourselves, outside forces might back off for good. It's not just the BATFE...we might see a patchwork of state, county & local regs. pop up in the absence of the feds controlling this. The FAA could get ugly (that jetliner rocket sighting last year didn't help).

Don't think for a minute that we are free & clear to launch HP at will now. If 'powers' want to regulate us out of existence, they can do it in a lot of other ways than trying to call it 'explosive'.

Thoughts?

 

[rstaff3]

Two words

 

[troj]

Thoughts?

I think this is a really bad idea!

Why on earth would we want or need to go to that level of paper trail?

Not to mention that the more folks who have that kind of information, the more opportunity there is for it to get lost, and that's identity theft just waiting to happen!

As a Prefect, I have zero desire to have any more personal information about other members than I absolutely have to.

The organizations have a process, it works, adding to it is unecessary and does nothing to benefit anyone.

-Kevin

 

[roadkill]

After all these years of unnecessary
government regulation the last thing I
want to see is more unnecessary
organizational regulation....

 

[Porthos II]

I think you are a little over the line, but I would not be opposed to dealers keeping a log of who bought what. Driver license, TRA/NAR number, cert level, motor specs. This would show we are capable of self policing, and not selling to just anyone. I think the more we portray ourselves as being responsible and safety conscious, we will skirt more regulations. My 2 cents.

Erik

 

[WillMarchant]

Dealers are already required by NFPA 1127 (which is law in many/most States) to keep records for five years of what certified user bought which motor(s). And they have to produce those for the Authority Having Jurisdiction upon request. So I think we already have what you're proposing. This is a tribute to the reasonable level of self regulation that the hobby has been trying to maintain for many years.

 

[snaquin]

Absent the stifling hassle/expense of LEUPS, I actually like the idea of some kind of registration & certification process for purchasing Level 2-3 motors.

Photo ID, heck, even fingerprinting...I believe there should be SOME kind of provable "bar" the buyer has to clear to . I don't want some anonymous yahoo showing up in a hoodie @ Al's Hobby/Wildman and getting a K-M reload w/cash, no questions asked.

Do you?

So why not take Certifications a step further & have TRA/NAR require a fairly rigorous form of registration (notarized photo ID...prints (maybe)...database accessible to vendors...maybe a cheap computer background check). If needed, I'd pay $50-100 for a one-time fee for the privilege of buying/using high power motors (no, it's not a 'right', despite the ruling). Or maybe it's just getting a scan of everyone's driver's license...vendors can get a $50 machine for that.

Maybe if we come up with something like this ourselves, outside forces might back off for good. It's not just the BATFE...we might see a patchwork of state, county & local regs. pop up in the absence of the feds controlling this. The FAA could get ugly (that jetliner rocket sighting last year didn't help).

Don't think for a minute that we are free & clear to launch HP at will now. If 'powers' want to regulate us out of existence, they can do it in a lot of other ways than trying to call it 'explosive'.

Thoughts?

Never had a need for any of this before ..... why start now? Ask anyone who had the luxury of flying in the days before regulation and I'll bet you get a similar answer!

I bought plenty of HPR motors in the old days. It was simple. You held out your hand with the money in it and they hand you the motor. Let's keep it simple.

Just my .02



.

 

[Porthos II]

Never had a need for any of this before ..... why start now? Ask anyone who had the luxury of flying in the days before regulation and I'll bet you get a similar answer!

I bought plenty of HPR motors in the old days. It was simple. You held out your hand with the money in it and they hand you the motor. Let's keep it simple.

Just my .02



.

Ask my grandpa, (may he rest in peace), he will tell you of the good ol days when you bought a car, and drove it, no insurance, no license, what a waste of time. We should all look forward to turning back the clock to the good ol days...

Erik

 

[MarkM]

Thoughts?

You're insane. We've already demonstrated we are capable of self-policing. NFPA regulations and TRA/NAR guideline already dictate who can buy what motors. Dealers must abide by at least NFPA BY LAW (for those states that have adopted it, which is most) and usually make it universal even if the state has not adopted NFPA.

We just got out from under the mother of all regulation known as the BATFE, why on Earth would we want to now have regulation ADDED!? It makes ZERO sense and would not provide much in additional security.

You must work for the government. Only a governmental official would have the gall to call for more regulation after we've been de-regulated.

 

[RangerStl]

Nobody has to have a driver's license to buy a car or drive it on private property. Nobody must have a license to buy an ultralight airplane. You don't need a license to buy a general aviation airplane. You don't need a federal license to buy a GUN or AMMUNITION... You don't need a license to buy rat poison. You don't need a license nor do you need to prove you own an antique firearm to buy black powder. Smokeless nitrocellulose gunpowder can be had in 8 lb kegs with no license or regulations and it burns a lot like APCP when out in the open.

These all seem to be much more dangerous, and much less expensive, than a silly HP rocket motor. I don't get your reasoning at all.

What are you worried about? I'd be more concerned about auto accidents or rat poisonings.

And by the by... Let's all remember our manners.

N

 

[georgegassaway]

Long before the BATF stuck their noses into things, NAR and TRA had the HPR Cert programs, in conjunction with the NFPA.

With a few exceptions such as for college programs and those in the military, a person is supposed to have an HPR Cert from either the NAR or TRA to be enabled to buy and fly HPR motors.

So that is the manner in which NAR and TRA have taken part in a self-regulating process, not because of the BATF.

Now, if YEARS ago, the BATF had offered a compromise that involved a simple "HPR Registration", with sufficient proof of I.D. (even fingerprinting), instead of the LEUP and Magazine storage garbage, the NAR and TRA would have gone for that. Or maybe a compromise of raising the LEUP threshold of propellant mass at liftoff (or possibly per motor) to something in the range of 600 to 1000 grams, which at one time seemed possible, but the BATF never officially offered.

If there had been some reasonable compromise, then hundreds of thousands of rocketry dollars (both NAR/TRA's and those members who donated additional funds) could have gone for much more productive things in the last decade. But IIRC the BATF never offered a compromise deal on anything - it was their way, and only their way - take it, or take it, or take it, or see 'em in court (or congress).

- George Gassaway

 

[DAllen]

Thoughts?

You're kidding - right?

-Dave

 

[MysticalRockets]

Somebody already passing around the Grape Kool-Aide already, eh?

Here's what we should do.


NOTHING!!!


We already self regulate. That's plenty. We're done here. Let's move on, shall we?

 

[H_Rocket]

Can we at least have a secret handshake?

 

[UMRS]

Absent the stifling hassle/expense of LEUPS, I actually like the idea of some kind of registration & certification process for purchasing Level 2-3 motors.

Photo ID, heck, even fingerprinting...I believe there should be SOME kind of provable "bar" the buyer has to clear to . I don't want some anonymous yahoo showing up in a hoodie @ Al's Hobby/Wildman and getting a K-M reload w/cash, no questions asked.

Do you?

So why not take Certifications a step further & have TRA/NAR require a fairly rigorous form of registration (notarized photo ID...prints (maybe)...database accessible to vendors...maybe a cheap computer background check). If needed, I'd pay $50-100 for a one-time fee for the privilege of buying/using high power motors (no, it's not a 'right', despite the ruling). Or maybe it's just getting a scan of everyone's driver's license...vendors can get a $50 machine for that.

Maybe if we come up with something like this ourselves, outside forces might back off for good. It's not just the BATFE...we might see a patchwork of state, county & local regs. pop up in the absence of the feds controlling this. The FAA could get ugly (that jetliner rocket sighting last year didn't help).

Don't think for a minute that we are free & clear to launch HP at will now. If 'powers' want to regulate us out of existence, they can do it in a lot of other ways than trying to call it 'explosive'.

Thoughts?

Your serious about this?

 

[matthew]

Absent the stifling hassle/expense of LEUPS, I actually like the idea of some kind of registration & certification process for purchasing Level 2-3 motors.

Feeling a bit naked without your yoke, deandome?

 

[quickburst]

No!

We have a workable system in place for self regulation. Let TRA/NAR run the show. They obviously know what they are doing.

 

[Chuck Rudy]

It must be April 1st on the Chinese caledar, or Russian Orthox calendar or something...... good one, ya had me there for a minute.

 

[rmpitzer]

Funniest thread, ever!

 

[WiK]

Photo ID, heck, even fingerprinting...

...

Thoughts?

I think you just want to have a cool card in your wallet that says 'Licensed to buy REALLY BIG rocket motors'.

Hell, I like my Explosives Certificate for the same reason.




Phil

 

[sunward]

Can we drop this thread and the idea behind it?

Let us move on. It serves no purpose.

 

[deandome]

I didn't expect to see so many NRA-hardcore-type replies.

Has a month gone by without news of primitive rockets being lofted @ Israel in a terror campaign? Don't you think that this is real reason the BATFE went after us after 9/11...not because of the supposed explosive capacity of APCP?

ONE idiot/madman who wants to loft a 4-incher loaded with 10-20lbs of bad stuff up top towards Brooklyn Heights...or ONE more yahoo who sends up a big bird near air-traffic lanes (which apparently/debatedly occurred last year) will literally kill this hobby forever. The FAA could simply decide to never grant a waiver....senators (state/fed) could craft laws that just plain ban us.

If you polled Americans who aren't involved with the hobby with "should citizens have access to high-power rockets capable of launching payloads up to 50 lbs 1-5 miles without federal, state or local regulation?", you're insane if you don't think the result would be at least 75% "NO!". We're not like gun owners; we're not protected by the Constitution, millions of supporters & a multi-million $$ lobbying group. If enough people want us shut down, shut down we will be.

The NFPA has no teeth; they do not enforce anything. Vendors are not required by law to take any special steps for sales that aren't shipped out.

You guys are acting like access to HP is an actual 'right'. IT'S NOT, and if you think the lawsuit victory means it is, you're setting us all up for big problems. It's a new world, with new fears. Try buying 500 lbs of fertilizer...try going to flight school if your name is Achmed...try getting on a GD plane with anything but the clothes on your back. Because the BATFE has been on us for the last decade, we actually were kind of insulated from other people trying to get in our business. I believe that unless we go out of our way to police ourselves...BEYOND what we now do...other entities are going to step in and perhaps make things worse than the Bureau ever did.

 

[troj]

Has a month gone by without news of primitive rockets being lofted @ Israel in a terror campaign? Don't you think that this is real reason the BATFE went after us after 9/11...not because of the supposed explosive capacity of APCP?

Do you honestly think a terrorist is going to go buy a commercial motor and get involved with a tightly-knit niche group, risking identification, when they can go to the local grocery store and get everything they need to make stuff like is being lobbed from Gaza?

Your arguments sound a lot like what the ATF uses to try to justify their actions. And the ATF is reported to have tried just such a test to justify their actions, and the only thing they succeeded in doing was burning the van they were launching from.

We have a certification process in place, why do we need more?

Do you realistically think a terrorist is going to register as a NAR or TRA member, certify to an appropriate level, just so they can buy reloads for terrorist devices? That'll cost a lot of money and require showing up in a public setting with a small group, where everyone knows everyone else.

Or, they can run to a local store, pay cash and anonymously buy a variety of products to make the exact same propellant that's being used in Gaza, today.

Oh, and the Gaza propellant will cost hundreds less for more range.

-Kevin

 

[sunward]

I didn't expect to see so many NRA-hardcore-type replies....

I am not a hard core type.

....Has a month gone by without news of primitive rockets being lofted @ Israel in a terror campaign? ...ONE idiot/madman who wants to loft a 4-incher loaded with 10-20lbs of bad stuff up top towards Brooklyn Heights...or ONE more yahoo who sends up a big bird near air-traffic lanes ....

And more regulation would stop them?

Mods, please close this thread before it gets out of hand.

 

[troj]

BTW, based on the logic used, every purchase of 5lbs or more of sugar should require a photo ID, fingerprints, etc. After all, that's the main ingredient in the Gaza propellants, as we need to track that.

Bakeries will, of course, love this.

-Kevin

 

[deandome]

There is no law requiring a vendor to sell to certified flyers...you don't need to join/participate in a club to get motors. TRA/NAR cards have zero levels of security....I could whip something up and either walk into Al's & get what I want, or send 'em a photocopy of a cert card...pay the hazmat fee & have it sent to me.

It certainly isn't just the minute threat of terrorism that I'm talking about. Reckless, 'rogue' hobbyists launching without FAA approval...maybe the surely-bitter Bureau people start talking to other agencies/govt. people saying "you know...there are now no laws/regulations stopping people from anonymously acquiring/launching large rockets, you might wanna look into this."

I am dead serious; people should not be able to purchase HP motors without a higher level of verified identification than now exists. That's all....MAKE SURE the person buying the motor is who he/she says she is, and that does NOT mean a silly little TRA card that an 8 y.o. could forge.

 

[shreadvector]

BTW, based on the logic used, every purchase of 5lbs or more of sugar should require a photo ID, fingerprints, etc. After all, that's the main ingredient in the Gaza propellants, as we need to track that.

Bakeries will, of course, love this.

-Kevin

Hmmmm...bakeries......

https://www.crumbs.com/

 

[RangerStl]

Dude, We know you're serious.

You're not finding agreement because we don't agree, not because we're too stupid to understand.

 

[WillMarchant]

The NFPA is an organization that produces and sells codes. States then take those codes and enact them into laws. I live in Virginia, which is an NFPA state. When I ask my Fire Marshal a hobby rocketry questions he pulls out a copy of the International Fire Code and that uses NFPA 1127 for HPR related matters. So, in Virginia, if you don't follow NFPA 1127 you are committing a crime.

NFPA 1127 requires that private individuals be certified by an appropriate organization. In the USA that is the NAR or Tripoli.

And it requires that vendors verify that certification and keep minimal records of their sales.

So there are some minimum requirements mandated by law. I suspect that some people will consider those too little and some consider them too much.

It is pretty easy to sign up for a free account at https://www.nfpa.org/ and you can then browse the codes for free.

 

[deandome]

What makes you think I'm clamoring for agreement?

And the only stupidity I'm implying is aimed at anyone who believes that 'The Victory' signals the end of external regulation & pressures aimed at high power rocketry.

I was as vocal as anyone when assailing the Bureau & LEUPS. But I am also afraid that in the absence of that, there is a very real danger that we could be looking at a wide range of piecemeal regulations at every conceivable level of govt.

And I'd wager that these concerns, if not my idea of tightening up our internal regs., are shared by motor mfgs. and/or TRA/NAR brass.

Dude, We know you're serious.

You're not finding agreement because we don't agree, not because we're too stupid to understand.