Should Estes make scale rockets that are not American (or the v2)

[Ez2cDave]

On a related note...I am not going to buy a WW2 V2 simply because of what it represents.

Without the WWII V-2, there would have been no Wernher Von Braun . . . Without Von Braun, there would have been no U.S. Manned Space Program .

Dave F.

 

[Zbench]

With all due respect.... what the V2 represents for a myriad of folks in the UK, and the WWII allies ... is a weapon that killed their family members / mates / friends.

I recall a WWII vet lecturing a young lakeroadster back in the 1980's about how he would never buy a Japanese vehicle. I couldn't relate.... well until a few years later... I visited the Arizona memorial in Oahu. At that time you watched a video about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and then took a boat over to the Arizona memorial.

Um, where does one draw the line? Ever taken a Bayer Aspirin? If so, you do realize they made the Zyklon B used in gas chambers all over Europe right?

Ever read a story by the Associated Press? You must know they collaborated with Nazi Germany by exercising censorship in America, right?

I hope you don’t bank with Chase! They sold Nazi war bonds to US customers of German heritage sympathetic to the Third Reich.

I hope you don’t drive a Volkswagen as they actually made the V-1 rockets that were also used to bomb Allies and kill Allied soldiers.

I also hope you don’t drive a Ford. Old Henry was such a rabid anti-Semite that Hitler in an interview in 1931 said that Henry Ford was his inspiration when asked why he had his portrait in his office.

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Seems like there is lots not to like besides the V-2

 

[bad_idea]

Quite apart of how one might feel about adversarial weaponry, may we of the allied nations not celebrate the capturing of the V-2 as the righteous spoils of war?

"As the American interrogators moved into Germany close behind —and sometimes ahead of—the armies, they found the German rocket scientists more than willing to surrender (and get new jobs) and more than anxious to tell everything they knew. Not only did the Americans get almost all the top scientists — they got everything else that wasn't nailed down, including the complete Peenemunde archives (which von Braun's crew had thoughtfully deposited in an abandoned mine) and all the A-4 rockets, complete or otherwise. And, red-blooded young Americans all, with larceny in their hearts, they liberated every milligram of hydrazine hydrate and high-strength hydrogen peroxide that they could find in Germany. Plus, naturally, the special aluminum tank cars built to carry the latter. Everything was promptly shipped to the United States.
"These steps were obvious." - John D. Clark, Ignition!

I'll take mine in yellow and black.

 

[Initiator001]

Estes wanted to sell an Ariane rocket kit in the late 1980s/early 1990s and even built a prototype.

Arianespace wanted royalties from every kit sold. Estes said it didn't pay royalties as it was free advertising for Arianespace.

Arianespace said "No" and that was the end of it.

 

[Cape Byron]

Deleted.

 

[DAllen]

Without the WWII V-2, there would have been no Wernher Von Braun . . . Without Von Braun, there would have been no U.S. Manned Space Program .

Dave F.

Speculation

 

[NOLA_BAR]

With all due respect.... what the V2 represents for a myriad of folks in the UK, and the WWII allies ... is a weapon that killed their family members / mates / friends.

I recall a WWII vet lecturing a young lakeroadster back in the 1980's about how he would never buy a Japanese vehicle. I couldn't relate.... well until a few years later... I visited the Arizona memorial in Oahu. At that time you watched a video about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and then took a boat over to the Arizona memorial.

If I had been home... I would have taken a hammer and beat the mirrors off my Toyota Tacoma.

I learned right there it's something you have to experience yourself.

While I have respect for the technology of the German and Japanese war machine.... I to this day, due to my deep respect for the allied forces, will never build a replica of anything that is based on the axis technology, technology specifically built to kill allied forces.

This was like my grandfather. Nothing Japanese. He was drafted fairly late as he worked at Higgins here in New Orleans before he was sent to the Pacific.

 

[techrat]

I was born in 1965. I am not fighting World War 2. My dad was of Jewish heritage, but that didn't seem to stop him from buying a VW Beetle, which is a car I grew up in and have fond memories of. Similarly, if Estes wants to sell an scale model of a North Korean or Iranian rocket, I'm all for it as long as those designs are interesting or have some feature that makes the model unique. For example, Rocketarium sells a Korean Sounding Rocket, the KSR-420S, which I bought and built because it's a 3-motor cluster, which I purchased to get comfortable flying clusters -- I haven't flown it yet, as soon as things warm up a bit.

 

[lakeroadster]

Um, where does one draw the line? Ever taken a Bayer Aspirin? If so, you do realize they made the Zyklon B used in gas chambers all over Europe right?

I told a story about the opinion a WWII veteran had, so I guess your questions are directed at him, not me. You could ask him, but he is likely dead at this point. RIP.

For me, I respect his opinion, since he is the one that risked his life defending our country.

But to your initial question, Where does on draw the line? As for me, as it relates to rocketry, I won't build anything that is a scale version of a rocket specifically built to kill allied forces. And you are right, there are a lot not to like besides the V-2. The Der Red Max comes to mind. All those little "kill" images on the side of it represent dead allied forces of WWI. Think about it.

 

[davestewart38]

Exactly what I said.

Supply/demand. If they think a kit is going to sell and make a profit then that's the kit they should be making regardless of what the country of origin is.

On a related note...I am not going to buy a WW2 V2 simply because of what it represents. Would I care if Estes made a WW2 V2? At this point probably not - but if it did bother me then I wouldn't buy any of Estes kits. Called vote with your wallet.

The V2 was the first man made object in space. The paperclip scientists built the US space program and US ballistic missile program.

Exactly what I said.

Supply/demand. If they think a kit is going to sell and make a profit then that's the kit they should be making regardless of what the country of origin is.

On a related note...I am not going to buy a WW2 V2 simply because of what it represents. Would I care if Estes made a WW2 V2? At this point probably not - but if it did bother me then I wouldn't buy any of Estes kits. Called vote with your wallet.

 

[kuririn]

If you take it to the logical extent, if one is averse to buying a kit of an adversarial nations' rocket, then what about buying kits that are all made in Communist China? They killed thousands of US and UN troops during the Korean War right? So wouldn't your morals prevent you from buying Estes? Meanwhile the rest of us will happily buy and enjoy their rocket kits.

 

[DAllen]

Um, where does one draw the line?

Wherever the heck I want. It's going to be different for everyone.

 

[dr wogz]

I thought the 'Geehod' rocket was in bad taste..

just sayin..

 

[lakeroadster]

I thought the 'Geehod' rocket was in bad taste..

just sayin..

But the 'YeeHaw' rocket was "da bomb"

 

[Zbench]

But the 'YeeHaw' rocket was "da bomb"

View attachment 560751

PURITY OF ESSENCE!

 

[cerving]

A Soyuz builder's kit would be cool... but I don't think they'll ever do it. They probably wouldn't make back the cost of the molded parts.

 

[mh9162013]

Unless Estes transitions to 3D printed parts as well.

Can 3D printed parts be at the same scale and cost as blow-molded, injection-molded or w/e technology Estes uses for its current plastic parts? I imagine 3D printing is more expensive when producing large batches.

I guess Estes could 3D print small batches and sell those parts for a higher price. But given how easy it is for the individual to 3D print these days, I doubt Estes would view that as an economically viable option.

 

[mh9162013]

I personally think they would make a shedload of money selling clear fin cans and moulded transitions. Dan Average isn't going to 3D print a small transition, unless they have a 3D printer on hand and the skills to drive it, if there is a chance to buy one off the shelf with your next Estes order.

Just my $0.02 worth. YMMV, as ever.

I agree. I think that Estes should sell almost any plastic kit part, individually.

For example, I love the Alpha III nose cone, but I can't get that part individually. Why can't Estes sell that part for $5? I'm sure their profit margins would be pretty high for that part at that price. The only thing I can think of is that selling individually parts like that would exponentially increase the inventory/parts/financial management responsibilities of its employees and e-commerce systems, so it's not worth the hassle for Estes.

 

[mh9162013]

Wherever the heck I want. It's going to be different for everyone.

Exactly, so let people make their "vote with wallet choices" as they wish and leave them be.

If someone refuses to build a V-2 rocket, fine by me. If someone wants to build the V-2 rocket, I won't view them as a Nazi sympathizer, either.

It's funny, when I used to build model WW 2 airplanes, I focused on Axis planes. Why? Because of my OCD. I believed I was going to screw up (or build a not-so-perfect) airplane model. Therefore, it should be with a plane that I don't like as much and respect less. Then I could save the P-51, P-47, Spitfire and other allied planes (that I not only liked more, but respected more) until my modeling skills improved.

Ironically, despite my disdain for Axis aircraft, I ended up building more of them than Allied aircraft.

 

[kuririn]

I guess Estes could 3D print small batches and sell those parts for a higher price. But given how easy it is for the individual to 3D print these days, I doubt Estes would view that as an economically viable option.

It's economically viable if it's used to replace expensive balsa parts. I think this was the driver for Rocketarium and erockets switching more to 3D printed parts.
BTW I notice that so far nobody has voted "No" to the question despite their moral convictions.

 

[mh9162013]

It's economically viable if it's used to replace expensive balsa parts.

What current kit is produced by Estes that still uses balsa parts for things like nose cones or transitions? Or are you saying Estes can "bring back" parts from OOP kits that used to be made out of balsa, but can now be made from 3D printing?

 

[Antares JS]

The only thing I can think of is that selling individually parts like that would exponentially increase the inventory/parts/financial management responsibilities of its employees and e-commerce systems, so it's not worth the hassle for Estes.

Exactly this.

 

[kuririn]

What current kit is produced by Estes that still uses balsa parts for things like nose cones

Orange Bullet.

 

[Scud-B]

The issue, as I see it, with current 3D printed parts for LPR applications is the layering. Maybe not an issue for iterative prototyping, but definitely a drawback for someone trying to build a 1/100, or finer, scale model.

I did a 1/100 scale Iraqi Al Samoud II just to play around with and it would be difficult to make that model look right any closer than 10ft.

 

[ep29030]

Look at Aerospace Specialty Products. They have some foreign scale rockets.

Model Rocket Kits, Components & Supplies

They have Black Brant III, IV, VB; Kappa-7 and 9M; Skylark; Sonda IIB; RP-3; RX-250-LPN that are all non-USA rockets.

 

[ep29030]

I was born in 1965. I am not fighting World War 2. My dad was of Jewish heritage, but that didn't seem to stop him from buying a VW Beetle, which is a car I grew up in and have fond memories of. Similarly, if Estes wants to sell an scale model of a North Korean or Iranian rocket, I'm all for it as long as those designs are interesting or have some feature that makes the model unique. For example, Rocketarium sells a Korean Sounding Rocket, the KSR-420S, which I bought and built because it's a 3-motor cluster, which I purchased to get comfortable flying clusters -- I haven't flown it yet, as soon as things warm up a bit.

We have to acknowledge that people can change. The Britain we fought with in WWII was our sworn enemy until the mid-1800's. The young people in Germany today reject the ideals of their grandparents who fought with Hitler. I understand how some people live in the past because of the trauma they experienced. But life moves on, people can change and we have to find a way to deal with it.

Don't forget that the great Japanese cars of the late 70's were the result of American mentors sent to help them rebuild their economy so the world would not repeat the economic errors in Germany that led to the Third Reich. W Edwards Deming was sent to Japan to help them, and he did his job pretty well.

 

[mh9162013]

The issue, as I see it, with current 3D printed parts for LPR applications is the layering. Maybe not an issue for iterative prototyping, but definitely a drawback for someone trying to build a 1/100, or finer, scale model.

I did a 1/100 scale Iraqi Al Samoud II just to play around with and it would be difficult to make that model look right any closer than 10ft.

Why is the layering a problem? Can't it be sanded smooth?

 

[markschnell]

Why is this discussion here instead of in the Scale section or the Watering Hole section?

 

[Pappy]

The world is your oyster...

oysters will mess you up.

regarding the topic, what Estes should or shouldn't do is none of my business. i would suggest that it's none of any other rando's business either, but i'm not mighty enough to judge anybody else's perspective. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, and the morality wheel squeeks way quieter than the money wheel. don't like it, don't buy it. i personally won't buy anything right now with the red star on it (or anything of russian source), but i'm not gonna push that agenda.

 

[Joekeyo]

PURITY OF ESSENCE!

Vital bodily fluids!