Second Stage Ignition

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roytyson

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Im close to getting my two-stage together. Is there a "rule of thumb" on the minimum ft/s the sustainer must be going before you should ignite it? In other words, never let the sustainer fall below "x" before ignition.

Thanks
 
What’s velocity at booster burnout? I usually light sustainer at 1-2 seconds after burnout.
 
about 465 ft/s. Burnout is slightly less than two seconds. I was going to do separation charge at 4 seconds, and sustainer ignition at 5 seconds. According to the sim, it will be about 280 ft/s when the second stage ignites.
 

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I'd think as an absolute minimum you'd want greater than the minimum stable speed. That's normally at least 50 ft/s. Personally I'd never stage slower than 200 ft/s as a safety margin.

If you're using electronics, most have safety lockouts. Like altitude at time and/or velocity at time. If the booster burns for 2.1 seconds, I'd set something like greater or equal to 200 ft/s at 3 seconds after liftoff and greater or equal to 1000 ft after liftoff. That should ensure that you had a good boost that was mostly straight. You'd need to run sims to get expected values. Also, depending on the sustainer motor, you may need to factor in time to come up to pressure.
 
Agreed with heada... program your sustainer ignition for FULL thrust to occur before you drop below 200fps. Depending on your sustainer motor it may take half a second and upwards of 3 seconds to come up to useful thrust.
 
Long ignition delays work great in simulation.
In reality not so good.
Going off vertical is number one problem, slowing too much because of slow ignition is also bad.
465 f/s is pretty slow for a high power rocket, I would recommend a minimum delay.

M
 
i have 18 2 stage flights so far. I have found any flights staged under 450-500 ft per sec. can begin to turn [arc over] I have staged at 12 sec delay and nailed 500 per sec....and flew bullet straight. that one lit sustainer at 14,000 ft.

So for me never less than 450-500 or u may risk a loooong walk. Especially if it windy.

I use BKNO3 pellets and e-match for sustainer, for instant on. If u don't have access to those use a BP pellet cut from estes C-6 motor. Cut case off with box cutter and u get 6 pellets out of the slug. They will press right in any 38mm core and light easily with e- match.

Edit after considering weight and size:
My flights have been in high power realm, and weighing 9-12lbs for sustainer. Smaller ...lighter projects that barely or don't reach 500ft/p/s obviously would not fit my criteria . I overlooked a fact well known, there is no "one size fits all" in flying. Rather diligence for your size and weight class, motor picks and thrust, need consideration case by case.
 
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If this is your first two stager, I'd recommend firing your sep charge about one second after burnout, and your motor another second after that. Velocity is your friend, and so is altitude. You absolutely need some kind of sustainer ignition lockout, a direct tilt-detect is best but baro velocity works well too (as long as you're under 800 fps), as does baro altitude. Sim the crap out of the flight, with different motors, so you pretty much know what to expect in terms of altitude and velocity at the time of sustainer ignition and a few seconds afterwards (since you have to take motor pressure-up time into consideration).

Even then, doo-doo happens... I launched a two-stager yesterday, and the J800 in the booster blew through the forward closure, resulting in a RUD at about 300'. Because of the tilt lockout in the Proton, the sustainer did not fire, and all of the parachutes came out since "apogee" had been reached (although the torching in the booster actually melted the Kevlar shock cord). This is an example of a "successful failure"... when it doesn't do what you wanted it to do, but it does exactly what it was programmed to do in the event of an anomaly and therefore everything comes out OK.
 
Im close to getting my two-stage together. Is there a "rule of thumb" on the minimum ft/s the sustainer must be going before you should ignite it? In other words, never let the sustainer fall below "x" before ignition.

Thanks
What electronics are you using to control staging?
 
I’ve been flying H to G and H motors in paper rockets. Mid Power Plus, as it were. Sustainer ignition is usually about 200-250 fps for me. I don’t usually get much over 300 fps.

I’m using a Proton and cutting really short timing. 0.1s after burnout for separation. 0.5s for ignition. Ignition of CTI White Thunder or Smokey Sam takes about .2-.4s.
 
It's nice to know how long your motor takes to come up to pressure... unfortunately that's not something that's in the motor specs or certification data. Failing that data, you have to rely on experience or folk knowledge... which is not always reliable and/or consistent.
 
It's nice to know how long your motor takes to come up to pressure... unfortunately that's not something that's in the motor specs or certification data.
I try to fly my sustainer motors from the ground in another airframe with the ignitor I will use for staging before i stage to get an idea how long the motor takes to come up. It's not exactly but it gets you in the ballpark.
 
Wildman Big-uns light anything and the little ones too. Is it a good idea to use 2 igniters?
There is lively debate about this...whether it's two ignitors wired in parallel from the same output (less frowned upon) or two different ignitors individually from different outputs (seemingly more frowned upon because some people argue or doubles the chance of an altimeter firing in an unsafe condition). I argue if it doubles your chances of an unsafe firing it doubles your chances of a safe firing so you're right back at zero and it's all the same.
 
Wildman igniters are 12volt launch system igniters...they will not fire from low current altimeter used to ignite second stage during flight.
 
There is lively debate about this...whether it's two ignitors wired in parallel from the same output (less frowned upon) or two different ignitors individually from different outputs (seemingly more frowned upon because some people argue or doubles the chance of an altimeter firing in an unsafe condition). I argue if it doubles your chances of an unsafe firing it doubles your chances of a safe firing so you're right back at zero and it's all the same.
No, lighting at a safe time doesn’t make up for the risk of lighting at an unsafe time.
 
No, lighting at a safe time doesn’t make up for the risk of lighting at an unsafe time.
You're 100% right, I stand corrected. In terms of unsafe ignition likelihood, safe ignition doesn't make up for that.

Two ignitors does increase the chance of a successful ignition in cases where the first ignitor failed (something I experience because I play with home-dipped e-matches and accept that).

I am still not convinced that two ignitors, in real quantifiable terms, increases the likelihood of unsafe ignition.
 
If we are using 3S lipos between 11 and 12.5V?
Might have to test this out on 2S and 3S packs.
I managed to light a Big Un using a dedicated pyro circuit with two 2S lipos running through a FET triggered by my altimeter. It was clunky so I didn't use it, but I got it to work.
Big Uns will light concrete so if you can get a good system to light them, I'm all for it.
 
You're 100% right, I stand corrected. In terms of unsafe ignition likelihood, safe ignition doesn't make up for that.

Two ignitors does increase the chance of a successful ignition in cases where the first ignitor failed (something I experience because I play with home-dipped e-matches and accept that).

I am still not convinced that two ignitors, in real quantifiable terms, increases the likelihood of unsafe ignition.
I completely agree that having two igniters doesn’t increase the likelihood of unsafe ignition. It simply increases the likelihood of ignition, which we need if we’re going to fly rockets.
I get concerned when people (not that you were) start talking about redundant staging systems. That’s when the chances of igniting a second stage at an unsafe time goes up.
 
I completely agree that having two igniters doesn’t increase the likelihood of unsafe ignition. It simply increases the likelihood of ignition, which we need if we’re going to fly rockets.
I get concerned when people (not that you were) start talking about redundant staging systems. That’s when the chances of igniting a second stage at an unsafe time goes up.

By redundant staging do you specifically staging from more than one channel on an altimeter as well as staging from one channel on multiple altimeters at the same time?
 
yes with 11.7 lips they will work. I made some specifically for that. flier from Alaska airstatrs cluster with Big Un's regularly
 
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