Search by propellant color

[JohnCoker]

A long-outstanding request for ThrustCurve.org is to search by propellant color. If this is something you would like to see, could you please answer a couple of questions:

1. Would you expect every propellant to have a color?
My guess is that people would search for motors that have an "effect" smoke and/or flame when searching by color, so most motors would have no special value for color.

2. What "color" would you say for black powder motors?

3. Is it really "color"?
Motors can emit smoke in black or white as well as have a colored flame. We already have an indication of sparky motors (because their use is restricted).

To make the discussion more concrete, I've put together a page that lists all the propellant types by manufacturer. Right now the "Color" column just picks a color word out of the propellant name, but clearly we'd need some manual input since not all names include the color.
https://www.thrustcurve.org/admin/propellants/

If searching by propellant color is a feature you want, please think of how you would categorize the propellants from your favorite manufacturer and consider what you would expect to get as a response when you did search for a specific color.

 

[5x7]

If it is a single parameter, I would call it as "Exhaust Effect" And then have maybe 20 options listed. AT Classic, CTI Classic, Warp 9, Kosdon Fast and slow, the AMW Tigers, I would say all have a Yellow-Orange flame, but are all "No Effects" in that they weren't going for an effects color in my opinion. Loki Cocktail is Fuscia, and CTI Pink is Fuscia (It's rocket math). Loki Ice blue is Blue-White. You are going to need Black Sparky for Skidmark and Dark Matter, and White Sparky for Metalstorm. Fast Jack is the same propellant as Black Max, and is Black, as is Smokey Sam. Black powder looks yellow to me. I would list White Thunder and White Lightning as White Flame/White Smoke. Good Idea!

 

[burkefj]

I thought they were all the "color of money"

 

[SeanW78]

I've got mellow yellow and blue in my shop. Color is a cool way to see what's launching next. As I talked with Wildman at the last launch, after asking him what he'd suggest, he asked me my favorite color.

 

[JohnCoker]

I think it makes sense to keep flame and smoke colors separate.

Let's try to crowd source this. If you would like this feature, help me fill in the data for existing propellants:
spreadsheet

For most usability:

• keep it to a small number of unique values
• only enter values if you would choose the motor for that effect
• don't enter "clear", "n/a" or any placeholder values

Feel free to add notes in column after the entry.

 

[5x7]

It comes up view only.

 

[JohnCoker]

It comes up view only.

OK, I think I made it publicly editable now.

 

[5x7]

Thanks, in my opinion aerotech Fast Jack and Fast Blackjack should all be called Black Max instead. I don’t think all ‘FJ’ suffix motors were released comerciallly as Black Max and what is in the cert is a misunderstanding by the testing org of what ‘FJ’ represented.

 

[JohnCoker]

The spreadsheet looks pretty good! In answer to a question, the CTI "White" propellant is set for 35 motors:
https://www.thrustcurve.org/motors/...esaroni&propellantInfo=White&availability=all

 

[Nytrunner]

It irks me to no end that FJ stands for "Black Max"

 

[5x7]

It irks me to no end that FJ stands for "Black Max"

I agree. I tried to say above, as far as I can tell all 'FJ' motors were released comercially as Black Max.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

FJ stands for 'Fast Jack' as opposed to regular Black Jack, Aerotech's slowest propellant.

 

[5x7]

They may have started thinking they would release reloads called that but I can't find any ad or reload image or AT catalog that ever used 'Fast Jack'. I think they decided the term would be confusing, never used it and went with Black Max from the very first motor, and never looked back. The G38 and F23 were certified 11/21/99. Here is the text from the release, the motor labels in the pics linked on the website have 'FJ', note it's an all new propellant:

EXCITING BLACK MAX™ ECONOJET MOTORS NOW AVAILABLE!

​

These new F23 and G38 single-use motors contain an entirely new black-smoke propellant formulation. Black Max™ propellant is easy to ignite and produces a thicker, denser smoke trail than that associated with AeroTech’s trademark Black Jack™ propellants. Colorfully packaged in economical two packs, the F motor pack lists for just $18.95. The G motor packs are priced at $21.95. Completely compatible with your existing AeroTech kits, these motors are sure to get your attention!

 

[JohnCoker]

OK. I fixed AT "Black Max" and cleaned up the Roadrunner propellants. If you're curious, you can see the list this table was created from:
https://www.thrustcurve.org/admin/propellants/
Note that you will not be able to update the data, but you can click in the propellant name to see a list of the motors that use it. (This is an admin page.)

 

[5x7]

Looks good, there are a few problems in the data, the first is the Aerotech L1090W is White Lightning, not Whire Thunder.

 

[JohnCoker]

Looks good, there are a few problems in the data, the first is the Aerotech L1090W is White Lightning, not Whire Thunder.

Fixed. Good catch; I've changed those admin pages to highlight entries with 0 or 1 motors to help find typos.

 

[5x7]

Another Black Max/ 'FJ' misunderstanding is quest q-jets, A3, B4, C12, D16. They are all Black Max. Here is the advertising copy:
The Q-Jets are the world's most advanced 18mm model rocket motors. They utilize a patent pending high-strength polymer case and bulkhead, ceramic nozzle and RCSs exclusive Black Max™ aerospace- grade composite propellant formulation, which produces nearly double the specific impulse (or "Isp", a propellant efficiency rating) of conventional black powder propellant. They are not susceptible to thermal cycling like black powder motors. Q-Jets generate a highly-visible exhaust plume and delay smoke trail. All Q-Jets ship with a FirstFire Micro™ 2-lead initiator, which can be used with any launch controller. All Q-Jet motors are U.S. mailable with no hazmat fee!

I think this is a great project and will lead to greater user clarity.

 

[5x7]

The Aerotech I180W is listed as seperate instance of White Lightning, like it got its own propellant ID in the database. I think it needs to go with the other White Lightning motors.

 

[JohnCoker]

The Aerotech I180W is listed as seperate instance of White Lightning, like it got its own propellant ID in the database. I think it needs to go with the other White Lightning motors.

It was "While Lightning".

 

[JohnCoker]

Another Black Max/ 'FJ' misunderstanding is quest q-jets, A3, B4, C12, D16. They are all Black Max.

Updated.

 

[5x7]

It was "While Lightning".

Oh my you have good eyes!!!

 

[JohnCoker]

How about the CTI "C-STAR" propellants? There's only one "C-Star (FAST)", the 5472M2250-P, is that right?

John

 

[5x7]

I don’t know too much about CTI, The CAR certs don’t help much.

Here are four more errors giving Aerotech two additional motor types. The AT H195NT propellant is New Blue Thunder, as are the F51NT and M1780NT.

The AT G142 is listed a blue thunder but used a propellant Aerotech made for a professional client, and they decided to do a single run of SU motors for us. The propellant is called 8222ALF, which I think is a standardized military or engineering designation, it's listed in the cert.

 

[5x7]

The Aerotech E6 single use is Blue Thunder, not Blackjack

 

[JohnCoker]

Thanks 5x7; updated those five entries.

 

[JohnCoker]

OK, the values from the spreadsheet have been imported into the database. Next, I'll figure out how to make use of the data for searching.

Note that currently no motors are associated with the AT "Fast White Lightning" propellant, but it's in the DB.

 

[Maxwelljets]

How about the CTI "C-STAR" propellants? There's only one "C-Star (FAST)", the 5472M2250-P, is that right?

John

As I understand it, that's the same propellant as the others, just with a slightly different grain geometry (bottom grain has a much wider core).

 

[5x7]

Aerotech provided motors for rebranding to several companies including PML, Estes, Rocket vision, Apogee, and of course the Quest Qjets are theirs also. Other than the Q-jets, I don’t think any of the Aerotech Propellant names are linked to those motors, so the colors won’t be linked either. Do want a list of the motors with the propellant types?

 

[JohnCoker]

Aerotech provided motors for rebranding to several companies including PML, Estes, Rocket vision, Apogee, and of course the Quest Qjets are theirs also. Other than the Q-jets, I don’t think any of the Aerotech Propellant names are linked to those motors, so the colors won’t be linked either. Do want a list of the motors with the propellant types?

Sure, if you have it handy I'll update the entries. Obviously the OOP motors are less important.

 

[5x7]

I’ll get a list together and email it, thanks.