# Scarab 54 vs Punisher Sport build challenge

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#### Mr G

##### Well-Known Member
With such a positive response to the previous Vulcanite vs Partizon build challenge, I thought there could be some interest in a similar comparison of economical fiberglass kits. The Scarab is 21" taller but otherwise they are close in diameter and weight. This would be my first endeavor with this material and there is the advantage of higher durability in the rough and tumble world of launch and recovery (for which I am sure of some hard landings on unforgiving surfaces again) compared to cardboard kits. It would also be a first opportunity to contrast the differences between Wildman and Rocketry Warehouse kits.

Any interest?

#### DavidMcCann

##### Well-Known Member
I silently watched the other thread with great interest. I like this idea as well, Though I do wish they fit 1200 cases this is a great size rocket.

#### Mr G

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks for watching the other thread. For those who are wondering, the Punisher is set up for 29mm motors and the Scarab for 38mm.

Are you are talking about a 24.625" long Loki 38/1200 case in the Scarab? If so, I appreciate that the booster tube is not quite long enough to accommodate such a monster case. Imagine sticking a K1127LB in there. Open Rocket simulates a max speed of Mach 1.9 and an altitude at apogee of of 9546 feet! As it is, I might be able to squeeze an Aerotech J570W in there with just enough room for a short reach drogue-less system. That flight simulates to Mach 1.5 and 8162 feet.

#### DavidMcCann

##### Well-Known Member
Yes, I've often considered getting a scarab custom cut or wildman jr to ride Loki K1127's and AT J510's. It's not much faster/higher than my 2.6" screech, but it'd be fun and less crazy than an MD.
I have a Vulcanite that would fit the 1200's, but it's setup for much less exciting flights.

I think the J570 is the perfect ride for a stock scarab.

Loki just certified a K627 Red for the 38/1200 case... I'm working on putting something together in a 54mm body for that motor, should be ready before the fall.

#### Mr G

##### Well-Known Member
Had to clean up the workbench to get ready for the new builds (see white tubes in the first pic). Here is what that turned into:

Estes PS II Ventris with strap on boosters

Boosters fall away at burnout with motor ejection shortly after and streamer recovery

24mm motor tube with Estes retainer

First flight will be on a 29mm F15-6 central motor with two 24mm D12-3s in the boosters.
Thrust rings were superglued on the aft end to use with the screw-on retainers.

Next post - first impressions of fiberglass components.

#### Mr G

##### Well-Known Member
Bare bones - here's what you get -

The blue Scarab has more parts than the black Punisher that looks very simple in comparison. The Punisher is limited by the 29mm motor tube versus the Scarab's 38mm motor tube. That will make a big difference in high altitude capability.

#### WILDMANRS

TRF Supporter
View attachment 297447
Why not compare the Scarab against the Wildman Jr. or any other kits in the Jr. line.

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#### WILDMANRS

TRF Supporter
Yes, I've often considered getting a scarab custom cut or wildman jr to ride Loki K1127's and AT J510's. It's not much faster/higher than my 2.6" screech, but it'd be fun and less crazy than an MD.
I have a Vulcanite that would fit the 1200's, but it's setup for much less exciting flights.

I think the J570 is the perfect ride for a stock scarab.

Loki just certified a K627 Red for the 38/1200 case... I'm working on putting something together in a 54mm body for that motor, should be ready before the fall.
I know that a 510 will fit into a stock Jr.

#### Dwatkins

##### Well-Known Member
I know in a Wildman Jr dual deploy the k1127 does about 11,800' in a flash &#128536;

Dennis

#### Bat-mite

##### Rocketeer in MD
The Scarab pictured is dual-deploy. The Punisher pictured is single-deploy. I'm not so sure these are the right two kits to compare.

The Wildman 2.6" Darkstar and the Madcow/RW Fire Flyer are nearly identical kits and would make for a better comparison, IMO.

#### Mr G

##### Well-Known Member
Like the Partizon and Vulcanite builds, the comparison is only to add some perspective on materials, build techniques with any performance measured with the same motors up to an I200. So, while the Scarab may take larger motors and have an ebay, the focus of any comparison will be more on cost, ease of construction, durability and "fun to hassle factor."

For those interested in only performance, then I agree, the comparison should be apples to apples with the same size motor mounts, diameter, ebay, etc.

#### WILDMANRS

TRF Supporter
Like the Partizon and Vulcanite builds, the comparison is only to add some perspective on materials, build techniques with any performance measured with the same motors up to an I200. So, while the Scarab may take larger motors and have an ebay, the focus of any comparison will be more on cost, ease of construction, durability and "fun to hassle factor."

For those interested in only performance, then I agree, the comparison should be apples to apples with the same size motor mounts, diameter, ebay, etc.
While they are both fiberglass kits and 54mm diameter that is where the similarities stop.
The Scarab sells for $120 the punisher sells for$80
If you want to do a fair comparison than use a Wildman Jr. that sells for $125 virtually an identical kit except the Wildman Jr. comes with welded stainless steel hardware. #### DavidMcCann ##### Well-Known Member I know that a 510 will fit into a stock Jr. That has to be a wild ride. Someday.... would also make a hell of a two stage sustainer. #### DavidMcCann ##### Well-Known Member While they are both fiberglass kits and 54mm diameter that is where the similarities stop. The Scarab sells for$120 the punisher sells for $80 If you want to do a fair comparison than use a Wildman Jr. that sells for$125 virtually an identical kit except the Wildman Jr. comes with welded stainless steel hardware.
I'd agree, scarab to Jr is a better comparison..... And the Jr wins for having the longer booster.

To be "fair" as MrG mentions- this would have to be limited to I200W's and flying the scarab 'short stack'

Flying two full bore Jr vs scarab with electronics etc would be costly and near identical aside from Jrs taking bigger motors.... For me this seems like more of a dual build thread than a head to head contest.

#### Mr G

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks for the understanding, Dave. Maybe "dual build" is a better description. There will be more contrast to comparison.

This "challenge" is geared more toward the lower time sport flyer who might be thinking of trying a fiberglass kit and who may not subscribe to the "higher, further, faster" mantra.

#### CzTeacherMan

##### Well-Known Member
While they are both fiberglass kits and 54mm diameter that is where the similarities stop.
The Scarab sells for $120 the punisher sells for$80
I got my Scarab for $70... BTW, I've only flown it on 2 and 3 grain 38's. 1900' on a H123, 2000' on a H242, and 4000' on a CTI I170. #### WILDMANRS ##### Sponsor TRF Sponsor TRF Supporter ... #### Bat-mite ##### Rocketeer in MD Mr. G, if you get Tim mad enough, maybe he'll send you a free Wildman Jr.... :duck: #### patelldp ##### Well-Known Member Understanding that these kits are really only differentiated by the payload section, you can still compare the components that they share. For example, outline the fit of the fins/CR's/nose, squareness of the tubes, straightness of the fin slots, material of the nosecones, etc. Weigh the tubes and calculate g/inch, etc. #### WILDMANRS ##### Sponsor TRF Sponsor TRF Supporter Mr. G, if you get Tim mad enough, maybe he'll send you a free Wildman Jr.... :duck: Our kits will stand up to any FAIR comparison #### WILDMANRS ##### Sponsor TRF Sponsor TRF Supporter Understanding that these kits are really only differentiated by the payload section, you can still compare the components that they share. For example, outline the fit of the fins/CR's/nose, squareness of the tubes, straightness of the fin slots, material of the nosecones, etc. Weigh the tubes and calculate g/inch, etc. The only thing that is the same is the diameter of the tube . What's different Nose cone Motor mount Fin thickness Booster length coupler payload bulk plates #### DavidMcCann ##### Well-Known Member His last side by side build was a partizan vs a vulcanite. Similarly dissimilar kits. I don't think anyone is going to fault the Punisher if he loads a J570 in the scarab and an I200 in the punisher. and on the same motor, the punisher has the edge. #### patelldp ##### Well-Known Member The only thing that is the same is the diameter of the tube . What's different Nose cone Motor mount Fin thickness Booster length coupler payload bulk plates I understand that you're trying to differentiate your product out of fear of an unfair evaluation. My suggestion above is one you should be happy with because I have suggested that he ignore the "features" and focus on the material and workmanship. Understanding that the motor mount diameter is different, I'd still expect nice snug fits on the CR's with minimal sanding. I'd also like to hear his opinion about the different nose cones. Another thing you can do is suggest what upgrades to your kit you have available to true it up with the Rocketry Warehouse kit. Namely: • What will it cost him to order it with a 38mm motor mount? • What will it cost him to add a payload, altimeter bay bulkheads and coupler? • What will it cost him to upgrade the plastic cone to a FWFG cone? Is all that less than the$40 delta?

These threads are an opportunity for you to sell the value that a customer will get when they purchase a Wildman kit. That value should also be obvious in the kit that they receive. Guide the discussion in a positive manner and you'll be amazed at the results.

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