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Scarab 54 vs Punisher Sport build challenge

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Mr G

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With such a positive response to the previous Vulcanite vs Partizon build challenge, I thought there could be some interest in a similar comparison of economical fiberglass kits. The Scarab is 21" taller but otherwise they are close in diameter and weight. This would be my first endeavor with this material and there is the advantage of higher durability in the rough and tumble world of launch and recovery (for which I am sure of some hard landings on unforgiving surfaces again) compared to cardboard kits. It would also be a first opportunity to contrast the differences between Wildman and Rocketry Warehouse kits.
IMG_7117.jpg

Any interest?
 

DavidMcCann

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I silently watched the other thread with great interest. I like this idea as well, Though I do wish they fit 1200 cases ;) this is a great size rocket.
 

Mr G

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Thanks for watching the other thread. For those who are wondering, the Punisher is set up for 29mm motors and the Scarab for 38mm.

Are you are talking about a 24.625" long Loki 38/1200 case in the Scarab? If so, I appreciate that the booster tube is not quite long enough to accommodate such a monster case. Imagine sticking a K1127LB in there. Open Rocket simulates a max speed of Mach 1.9 and an altitude at apogee of of 9546 feet! As it is, I might be able to squeeze an Aerotech J570W in there with just enough room for a short reach drogue-less system. That flight simulates to Mach 1.5 and 8162 feet.
 

DavidMcCann

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Yes, I've often considered getting a scarab custom cut or wildman jr to ride Loki K1127's and AT J510's. It's not much faster/higher than my 2.6" screech, but it'd be fun and less crazy than an MD.
I have a Vulcanite that would fit the 1200's, but it's setup for much less exciting flights.

I think the J570 is the perfect ride for a stock scarab.


Loki just certified a K627 Red for the 38/1200 case... I'm working on putting something together in a 54mm body for that motor, should be ready before the fall.
 

Mr G

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Had to clean up the workbench to get ready for the new builds (see white tubes in the first pic). Here is what that turned into:
IMG_7318.jpg
Estes PS II Ventris with strap on boosters


IMG_7319.jpg
Boosters fall away at burnout with motor ejection shortly after and streamer recovery


IMG_7320.jpg
24mm motor tube with Estes retainer


IMG_7321.jpg
First flight will be on a 29mm F15-6 central motor with two 24mm D12-3s in the boosters.
Thrust rings were superglued on the aft end to use with the screw-on retainers.

Next post - first impressions of fiberglass components.
 

Mr G

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Bare bones - here's what you get -
IMG_7324.jpg
The blue Scarab has more parts than the black Punisher that looks very simple in comparison. The Punisher is limited by the 29mm motor tube versus the Scarab's 38mm motor tube. That will make a big difference in high altitude capability.
 

WILDMANRS

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Yes, I've often considered getting a scarab custom cut or wildman jr to ride Loki K1127's and AT J510's. It's not much faster/higher than my 2.6" screech, but it'd be fun and less crazy than an MD.
I have a Vulcanite that would fit the 1200's, but it's setup for much less exciting flights.

I think the J570 is the perfect ride for a stock scarab.



Loki just certified a K627 Red for the 38/1200 case... I'm working on putting something together in a 54mm body for that motor, should be ready before the fall.
I know that a 510 will fit into a stock Jr.
 

Dwatkins

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I know in a Wildman Jr dual deploy the k1127 does about 11,800' in a flash 😘

Dennis
 

Mr G

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Like the Partizon and Vulcanite builds, the comparison is only to add some perspective on materials, build techniques with any performance measured with the same motors up to an I200. So, while the Scarab may take larger motors and have an ebay, the focus of any comparison will be more on cost, ease of construction, durability and "fun to hassle factor."

For those interested in only performance, then I agree, the comparison should be apples to apples with the same size motor mounts, diameter, ebay, etc.
 

WILDMANRS

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Like the Partizon and Vulcanite builds, the comparison is only to add some perspective on materials, build techniques with any performance measured with the same motors up to an I200. So, while the Scarab may take larger motors and have an ebay, the focus of any comparison will be more on cost, ease of construction, durability and "fun to hassle factor."

For those interested in only performance, then I agree, the comparison should be apples to apples with the same size motor mounts, diameter, ebay, etc.
While they are both fiberglass kits and 54mm diameter that is where the similarities stop.
The Scarab sells for $120 the punisher sells for $80
If you want to do a fair comparison than use a Wildman Jr. that sells for $125 virtually an identical kit except the Wildman Jr. comes with welded stainless steel hardware.
 

DavidMcCann

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While they are both fiberglass kits and 54mm diameter that is where the similarities stop.
The Scarab sells for $120 the punisher sells for $80
If you want to do a fair comparison than use a Wildman Jr. that sells for $125 virtually an identical kit except the Wildman Jr. comes with welded stainless steel hardware.
I'd agree, scarab to Jr is a better comparison..... And the Jr wins for having the longer booster.

To be "fair" as MrG mentions- this would have to be limited to I200W's and flying the scarab 'short stack'


Flying two full bore Jr vs scarab with electronics etc would be costly and near identical aside from Jrs taking bigger motors.... For me this seems like more of a dual build thread than a head to head contest.
 

Mr G

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Thanks for the understanding, Dave. Maybe "dual build" is a better description. There will be more contrast to comparison.

This "challenge" is geared more toward the lower time sport flyer who might be thinking of trying a fiberglass kit and who may not subscribe to the "higher, further, faster" mantra.
 

CzTeacherMan

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While they are both fiberglass kits and 54mm diameter that is where the similarities stop.
The Scarab sells for $120 the punisher sells for $80
If you want to do a fair comparison than use a Wildman Jr. that sells for $125 virtually an identical kit except the Wildman Jr. comes with welded stainless steel hardware.
Glen (djs) has a scarab... I've got a Wildman Shredder Jr. ... They will be compared shortly. We're thinking I600R... Woot!!
 

djs

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Glen (djs) has a scarab... I've got a Wildman Shredder Jr. ... They will be compared shortly. We're thinking I600R... Woot!!
I also have a wildman vindicator jr. I could drag race myself! either way I win! :)
 

DavidMcCann

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Full-stack Jr's and Scarab's are wild flights and I'd love to hear about them....

But to get back on the OP's track..... What does a short scarab and the punisher sport sim to on an I200W, that has to be a hell of a ride in itself
 

Mr G

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Open Rocket sims the 33" Punisher Sport (2.55 lbs) at 4,549 feet and the 55" Scarab (2.5 lbs) at 3,906 feet with an I200W. That may change a bit as the files get tweaked based on the builds.

FWIW, the 57" Partizon (2.4 lbs) simmed at 3,612 feet in OR but the Jolly Logic Altimeter 2 came back with 4,453 and the Adept 22 had 4,375 feet. So we really won't know what the real altitudes are until launch.
IMG_4226.jpg
Epic Partizon launch on a 29mm Aerotech I200 White Lightning.
 

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Flyfalcons

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I did a sim for my Punisher Sport and an I200W shows it right about 5,000'. This kit is lovely; the fiberglass is almost too pretty to paint over and the nose cone is just mean. Based on my experience with this kit, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase another Wildman kit.

20160630_223557.jpg
 
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Rocketjunkie

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While they are both fiberglass kits and 54mm diameter that is where the similarities stop.
The Scarab sells for $120 the punisher sells for $80
If you want to do a fair comparison than use a Wildman Jr. that sells for $125 virtually an identical kit except the Wildman Jr. comes with welded stainless steel hardware.
I got my Scarab for $70...

BTW, I've only flown it on 2 and 3 grain 38's. 1900' on a H123, 2000' on a H242, and 4000' on a CTI I170.
 

Bat-mite

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Mr. G, if you get Tim mad enough, maybe he'll send you a free Wildman Jr....

:duck:
 

patelldp

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Understanding that these kits are really only differentiated by the payload section, you can still compare the components that they share. For example, outline the fit of the fins/CR's/nose, squareness of the tubes, straightness of the fin slots, material of the nosecones, etc.

Weigh the tubes and calculate g/inch, etc.
 

WILDMANRS

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Understanding that these kits are really only differentiated by the payload section, you can still compare the components that they share. For example, outline the fit of the fins/CR's/nose, squareness of the tubes, straightness of the fin slots, material of the nosecones, etc.

Weigh the tubes and calculate g/inch, etc.
The only thing that is the same is the diameter of the tube .
What's different
Nose cone
Motor mount
Fin thickness
Booster length
coupler
payload
bulk plates
 

DavidMcCann

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His last side by side build was a partizan vs a vulcanite. Similarly dissimilar kits. I don't think anyone is going to fault the Punisher if he loads a J570 in the scarab and an I200 in the punisher.

and on the same motor, the punisher has the edge.
 

patelldp

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The only thing that is the same is the diameter of the tube .
What's different
Nose cone
Motor mount
Fin thickness
Booster length
coupler
payload
bulk plates
I understand that you're trying to differentiate your product out of fear of an unfair evaluation. My suggestion above is one you should be happy with because I have suggested that he ignore the "features" and focus on the material and workmanship. Understanding that the motor mount diameter is different, I'd still expect nice snug fits on the CR's with minimal sanding. I'd also like to hear his opinion about the different nose cones.

Another thing you can do is suggest what upgrades to your kit you have available to true it up with the Rocketry Warehouse kit. Namely:

  • What will it cost him to order it with a 38mm motor mount?
  • What will it cost him to add a payload, altimeter bay bulkheads and coupler?
  • What will it cost him to upgrade the plastic cone to a FWFG cone?
Is all that less than the $40 delta?

These threads are an opportunity for you to sell the value that a customer will get when they purchase a Wildman kit. That value should also be obvious in the kit that they receive. Guide the discussion in a positive manner and you'll be amazed at the results.
 
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