Scale rockets

[FresnoPete]

I have been out of the hobby for about 10 years but before that I was fairly active since about 1976. I dabbled in the lower range of high power, had a Mustang that was an F-G powered if memory serves me, but I don't want anything I have to chase that far anymore.

My main interest at this point is scale or semi-scale rockets, those patterned after existing or proposed vehicles. I recently discovered Dr. Zooch and like his selection, even watched a few launches on YT to see how well they flew. These are well within my skill range and having a smaller living area they're not a problem for storage. Quest also makes a few nice rockets like the Shinzhou, and of course there are still collectors kits from Estes available if I can pay that sort of money.

What I am really looking for are free or next to free plan sets for scaling up some of Zooch's rockets for D power, or multi C power. I can pretty much "look and build" to get a specific appearance but if there are plans, all the better. There is also a tube coupler I can't seem to find that would make some of the Delta rockets easier to build, that couple two different sizes of tubes. Estes used to make one out of plastic, if one is still available I'd like to know where please. My local hobby shop was pretty much clueless when I asked them. Then again they had never seen a built up Estes Cruise Missile either so that was reassuring. So if anyone has links to plan sets or even good affordable (under $50) kits of scale rockets I would appreciate links.

Thanks,
Pete

 

[aerostadt]

You might consider "The Launch Pad" kits. They are light and may use a cluster of D-motors, or E or F motors.

https://www.the-launch-pad.com/#!kits/cee5

I think Performance Rocketry carries these kits.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Order "Rockets of the World" by Peter Always from NARTS... don't forget the supplements as well... it's a treasure trove of information for the scale model builder... absolutely indispensable...

The Zooch kits are really cool, great flyers, and very novel in some of their construction methods and materials. You should get a couple and try them out-- I think you'd really like them. I've done a number of build threads of various Zooch kits here on the forum (and at YORF) with lots of pictures in a step-by-step format, almost like "video instructions" like those Tim Van Milligan posts on YT in his "old rocketry workshop" series of videos... I do a lot of beta builds for Wes at Dr. Zooch of new kits before they come out, so I often get permission to do "sneak peek" build threads here on the forum before the kit is introduced. A quick search of "dr. zooch beta builds" or threads started by me will turn up a ton of them.

As for upscale "plans" of Dr. Zooch kits, well, I don't think you'll find them. You might check out EMRR and see if anything is on there. Otherwise, probably not. It would be a pretty simple matter to buy and build a couple of his kits and then figure out how to do an 'upscale' of them on your own-- Dr. Zooch kits use some novel techniques and techniques common in paper or cardstock modeling, so it's a little different than standard "Estes style" model rocket kits, especially the "mass production, ARF/RTF" type kits common from the big manufacturers for the last 20 years or so...

After you build and fly a few of the Dr. Zooch kits, and see how well they fly and how good you can make them look (if you put some time into the build and do it well) I think you'll find that the "smallness factor" isn't so much of an issue... I too was skeptical of the smaller rockets and "wanted to fly the big ones" when I became a BAR years ago, but then I realized, that bigger rockets cost a LOT more, the motors are MUCH more expensive, and the build and prep time for flight is a lot longer, yeah the flights are higher, but then the recovery is also a lot farther away, and the risk of damage or loss is a lot greater, all for basically the same "whoosh, pop!" from a C motor rather than the "WHOOSH! POP!" of a much more expensive D, E, or F motor... Larger rockets tend to be more easily damaged on landing than smaller ones as well... and of course when it comes to scale rockets, the larger the size of the model, the more intricate detail it NEEDS to have in order to "look right"... while you can get away with printed stripes for corrugations on interstages and intertanks on the BT-60 Zooch Saturn V, that would look ridiculous on the BT-101 Estes version... and the plastic corrugated wraps that look good on an Estes 1/100 scale version need to be a LOT more detailed on a 1/70 scale rocket like the Apogee Saturn V in order to look "right". Smaller scale rockets let you "cheat" a little, because a lot of details simply don't have to be reproduced at smaller sizes, because they aren't visible... but leave them off a large scale version, and the rocket looks "naked" or "incomplete"...

You'll be surprised how high those Zoochies fly on a regular C motor anyway... very nice flights...

Give them a try, and I think you'll like them. Read the build threads I've posted and see what you think... Here's a couple to start you off...

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...Return-To-Flight-Space-Shuttle-build-thread-2

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?4923-Dr-Zooch-Atlas-Agena

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...ot-Ant-Scale-quot-Mercury-Redstone-Beta-Build

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?13600-Dr-Zooch-Vanguard-Eagle-Beta-Build-Thread

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?4439-Dr-Zooch-Saturn-V

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...50th-Anniversary-Dr-Zooch-Mercury-Atlas-build

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?25443-Dr-Zooch-SLS-beta-build-thread

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?47900-Dr-Zooch-Saturn-1b-build-thread

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?2092-Dr-Zooch-Lifting-Body-build-thread

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?29228-Dr-Zooch-Rockets-EFT-1-beta-build

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?4418-Dr-Zooch-Titan-III-C-MOL

Later and good luck! OL JR

 

[FresnoPete]

Wow, Luke, thanks for all the info. I just ordered some of the old building tools that I used to have today, and a scale kit to butcher. Years ago Estes used to be more liberal with some of their parts, you could buy airframe reducers in packs like nose cones and such. Now you have to either get the designers pack or a rocket with one included. I have a grandson who is in HS woodworking I may get to turn me a few replacements once I get something for him to copy. I have a number of old (published 1988) rocket books but there have been so many new developments and by other countries. The internet is a great source for getting the "look" of the Jaxa, Angara and maybe some of the Space X craft. As far as the "woosh pop", that's fine with me. Having chased the few high powers I had for 1/2 mile across open farm fields I can do with less of a hike. There are some of the things I will take from the Aerotech rockets like the ejection gas cooling system (I use an old stainless steel scrubber in the engine tube) when I do my new projects. I did dig out my box of old rockets too, most are still flyable surprisingly. Not sure if I want to still fly my Estes Shuttle of Saturn V, but the Cruise missile is still flyable after some re gluing. I'm going to keep watching this thread, Aerostadt gave me a nice site for scale weapon kits that are very interesting if not just outside of my current fixed income.

**Edit: Just read your SatV build, very, very cool. My concern is I have a moderate motor function decrease in my right hand from a recent stroke, but I am left handed so it still looks like something I can handle.***

 

[dave carver]

Hi new guy Many times you can find Estes rockets on sale from both dealers and Estes itself. Sign up with Hobby Linc and they have monthly specials, other dealers do the same thing but I've been very happy with Hobby Linc.

https://www.hobbylinc.com/

And I hear you about the decreased function. I have carpel tunnel in my left hand and before I cut anything I check to see where my fingers are because I'm not sure where my pinky is, I have to look to make sure these days Just never run after any rocket, even if the wind is dragging it. Hearts are delicate things, especially after they warn you...

 

[iqsy59]

If you like scale sounding rockets and just want to dive in and build from a kit, you might check out the Rocketarium kits. JonRocket and Hobbylinc are good sources. I also have a couple of kits in my queue from Aggressor Aerospace. They seem to sell exclusively through eBay. They have a couple of SLV's from "the axis of evil" that are quite interesting: the Iranian Safir and the North Korean Unha-3.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[luke strawwalker]

Wow, Luke, thanks for all the info. I just ordered some of the old building tools that I used to have today, and a scale kit to butcher. Years ago Estes used to be more liberal with some of their parts, you could buy airframe reducers in packs like nose cones and such. Now you have to either get the designers pack or a rocket with one included. I have a grandson who is in HS woodworking I may get to turn me a few replacements once I get something for him to copy. I have a number of old (published 1988) rocket books but there have been so many new developments and by other countries. The internet is a great source for getting the "look" of the Jaxa, Angara and maybe some of the Space X craft. As far as the "woosh pop", that's fine with me. Having chased the few high powers I had for 1/2 mile across open farm fields I can do with less of a hike. There are some of the things I will take from the Aerotech rockets like the ejection gas cooling system (I use an old stainless steel scrubber in the engine tube) when I do my new projects. I did dig out my box of old rockets too, most are still flyable surprisingly. Not sure if I want to still fly my Estes Shuttle of Saturn V, but the Cruise missile is still flyable after some re gluing. I'm going to keep watching this thread, Aerostadt gave me a nice site for scale weapon kits that are very interesting if not just outside of my current fixed income.

**Edit: Just read your SatV build, very, very cool. My concern is I have a moderate motor function decrease in my right hand from a recent stroke, but I am left handed so it still looks like something I can handle.***

You're welcome... anything I can do to help, lemme know.

Sorry to hear about your health problems... that's no fun at all... the limited income thing should DEFINITELY have you thinking about Dr. Zooch kits-- where else can you get an "ant scale" (semi-scale) rocket kit for about $20-25 bucks?? Heck even most Estes "ARF/RTF plastic wonders 3FNC" kits are regularly priced at $25-30 bucks... course you can find them cheaper from large online retailers, and the occasional Estes "cleanout" sale like they had last Christmas... I picked up quite a few kits for parts if nothing else... Estes parts inventory has become something of a joke, especially since most of their parts and kits are coming directly from China now... the days of them bagging up excess parts in the backroom for sale are gone...

Semroc has been THE go-to parts supplier in rocketry for a long time, but unfortunately due to the fairly recent death of the owner Carl and the severe illness of his son Bruce, they've been forced to close their doors and they're in sellout mode right now... it remains to be seen if someone else steps into the void to either buy out Semroc or fill the mantle they've left behind... One can get a lot of different nosecones and transitions from Balsa Machining Service or Gord at Sandman (Roachworks). Gord is regularly on the YORF forum. Gord will do custom turned nosecones and transitions, but of course custom work and craftsmanship of his level does cost... Bill at Balsa Machining Service (BMS) used to do custom work but I don't think he does anymore-- recently relocated and wasn't doing custom work AFAIK... though he still does the "listed parts" stock that he has in his "catalog". IIRC most of the parts in Wes's Dr. Zooch kits are sourced from BMS.

Of course the other alternative is making your own. One doesn't have to have a fancy lathe to turn acceptable nosecones and transitions. I once turned a 1/100 scale Ares I/Orion nosecone upstairs in the breezeway at my MIL's house during the summer using nothing but an ancient aluminum-cased electric drill clamped down to the table, using a balsa block with a hardwood dowel glued in to the base of it tightened up in the drill chuck. The thread on it is here... https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showthread.php?t=43945&highlight=1/100+Ares

I also turned my own nosecones for the "scratchbuilds" I did of the SS-17 and Minuteman III using magazine photos back in the 80's.... the thread is here... https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showthread.php?t=43944&highlight=1/100+Ares

I've also used pink or blue closed-cell insulation foam for turning a transition for my more recent BT-80 sized Saturn V build... here's the thread on it... https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?25770-BT-80-based-Saturn-V-quot-Saturn-I-F-quot

Also, I've been in the process of "summarizing" and posting the relevant pics and information from various NASA and contractor studies that I've picked up on the 'net over the years that could be of interest or help to rocketeers to create flying models of various NASA "proposals" or unbuilt/unflown prospective vehicles, like NOVA, Saturn IB alternatives/replacements, etc... even some stuff from other countries... go to the "scale" section of the forum and scroll through the threads looking for the "Study Summary" threads... GREAT stuff in there on various upgrades and alternative vehicles from the Saturn rockets, shuttle alternatives, NOVA rocket proposals, etc...

Later and good luck! OL JR

 

[FresnoPete]

OK so now I have a couple of "getting back into" the hobby kits coming, went and bought glue, paint, etc yesterday. The wife says I can have $50 on the 1st so you know where that money is going, right into the Doc's kid's trust fund.

I have been looking at my first build from scratch C power rocket and I really like the ESA Vega because of the use of varying diameter body tubes. The fact the scale is easy to mock up, it's 98' high and 9.8' wide at the widest with a 6.2' mid tube. In 1/120th scale that's BT-50 and BT-20 tubing. And using the BT-20 the full length of the rocket (so I can have engine mount and small chute storage in one) and just making wraps for the airframe reducers out of heavy paper would probably save weight. If my figuring is correct it will top out at 9.8" overall height, about the Doc's "ant-scale".

One of the things I used to do a while ago was vacuform HO slot car bodies. I made my own molds and such, even made my own vacuformer. I'd love to get back into that as well and maybe vacuform a few glide recovery lifting bodies. Dr. Zooch's Shuttle would be an excellent carrier for my own hand made designs, or something like The Clipper:

Vacuforming isn't that hard, the hard part is the mock up for the mold. I think working in balsa I could come up with something that would be aerodynamic and practical looking. Here's the tutorial I made about 5 years ago.

https://s192.photobucket.com/user/FresnoPete/media/MOV00058.mp4.html

https://s192.photobucket.com/user/FresnoPete/media/MOV00059.mp4.html

https://s192.photobucket.com/user/FresnoPete/media/MOV00060.mp4.html

You see it's just a matter of the right heat and time. Something to play with more once I get back into the hobby to be sure.

 

[luke strawwalker]

OK so now I have a couple of "getting back into" the hobby kits coming, went and bought glue, paint, etc yesterday. The wife says I can have $50 on the 1st so you know where that money is going, right into the Doc's kid's trust fund.

I have been looking at my first build from scratch C power rocket and I really like the ESA Vega because of the use of varying diameter body tubes. The fact the scale is easy to mock up, it's 98' high and 9.8' wide at the widest with a 6.2' mid tube. In 1/120th scale that's BT-50 and BT-20 tubing. And using the BT-20 the full length of the rocket (so I can have engine mount and small chute storage in one) and just making wraps for the airframe reducers out of heavy paper would probably save weight. If my figuring is correct it will top out at 9.8" overall height, about the Doc's "ant-scale".

One of the things I used to do a while ago was vacuform HO slot car bodies. I made my own molds and such, even made my own vacuformer. I'd love to get back into that as well and maybe vacuform a few glide recovery lifting bodies. Dr. Zooch's Shuttle would be an excellent carrier for my own hand made designs, or something like The Clipper:

Vacuforming isn't that hard, the hard part is the mock up for the mold. I think working in balsa I could come up with something that would be aerodynamic and practical looking. Here's the tutorial I made about 5 years ago.

https://s192.photobucket.com/user/FresnoPete/media/MOV00058.mp4.html

https://s192.photobucket.com/user/FresnoPete/media/MOV00059.mp4.html

https://s192.photobucket.com/user/FresnoPete/media/MOV00060.mp4.html

You see it's just a matter of the right heat and time. Something to play with more once I get back into the hobby to be sure.

That's really cool...

Yep, a Klipr would look really cool on one of Dr. Zooch's Soyuz rockets, which just happen to be in the same scale as the Saturn I/IB kits...

Glad to have you on the forum...

Later! OL JR

 

[hcmbanjo]

Order "Rockets of the World" by Peter Always from NARTS... don't forget the supplements as well... it's a treasure trove of information for the scale model builder... absolutely indispensable...
The Zooch kits are really cool, great flyers, and very novel in some of their construction methods and materials. OL JR

Ditto on all Luke said!
The Alway books are indispensable and the Zooch kits are great builds and flyers!

 

[Astro-Baby]

Fliskits do supplies of stuff like nose cones, tubes, couplers etc. They also do some scale models at pretty reasonable prices.

I built a few out of the box rockets to start with but like you I am on a bit of a budget so I have to stay limited to C and D sized stuff. My most expensive build to date has easily been my Rheintochter but thats because I had to buy bulk parts - out of it I am building Fire Lily effectively out of the same budget and still have ample tubes and centring rings left over.

Scratch building is a lot of fun and I get a lot of bang for the buck out of my hobby $$$ doing scratch build stuff - the biggest expense I always find is the paint

Good luck to you on whatever you build though.

 

[NJRick]

Pete..welcome to he forum! I agree with Luke. The Zooch kits are great fliers and very inexpensive. I love his Saturn 1b and have done a build thread on that over in scale section. Another neat kit is th Zooch Lifting Body. I like to paint my LBs as WWII fighters. I have posted some pics as well as a thread on that kit. You really cant go wrong with any of them!

 

[FresnoPete]

You guys are great. Anyone ever tell you that? OK, I have been looking at what you sent plus I found a few sites stumbling around on my own. One of them was Uncle Mike's that had the TA2050 in balsa, which is better than nothing but I am still looking see something bigger, like maybe a 5080 transition since I really want to do this Vega I'm planning a bit bigger. Making the transition faring from paper has been a daunting idea but then I came across an amputee at the VA hospital who makes them using a regular automotive funnel and a simple pattern he made himself in his rocket projects. Just cut the shape, wrap around the funnel, glue and Viola!!! Heavy paper farings that just needs a little trimming and drops perfectly into place. He has even made paper mache transitions for something harder using the same funnel. The guys wife works at Michael's Crafts and brings home embossed ribbed paper for use on rockets like the Saturn series, for the size he builds he says they work perfectly. I plan on heading to my own area Michael's around mid-week to see what I can find for myself.

Still waiting for orders to appear, later this week but I appreciate all of what has already been suggested.

 

[luke strawwalker]

You guys are great. Anyone ever tell you that? OK, I have been looking at what you sent plus I found a few sites stumbling around on my own. One of them was Uncle Mike's that had the TA2050 in balsa, which is better than nothing but I am still looking see something bigger, like maybe a 5080 transition since I really want to do this Vega I'm planning a bit bigger. Making the transition faring from paper has been a daunting idea but then I came across an amputee at the VA hospital who makes them using a regular automotive funnel and a simple pattern he made himself in his rocket projects. Just cut the shape, wrap around the funnel, glue and Viola!!! Heavy paper farings that just needs a little trimming and drops perfectly into place. He has even made paper mache transitions for something harder using the same funnel. The guys wife works at Michael's Crafts and brings home embossed ribbed paper for use on rockets like the Saturn series, for the size he builds he says they work perfectly. I plan on heading to my own area Michael's around mid-week to see what I can find for myself.

Still waiting for orders to appear, later this week but I appreciate all of what has already been suggested.

You're welcome...

I got some ribbed paper for my BT-80 Saturn V and Saturn I-F build thread I posted above... IIRC I got it at Michaels. Works well.

Paper transitions are used fairly often in the Zooch kits, if only as things like capsule wraps and stuff over balsa nosecones underneath. It's not that hard, but there's a few tricks to it. As for patterns, there's a tool where you can put in the upper diameter, lower diameter, and length of the transition and it will spit out a template pattern ready to be printed out on cardstock or cut out of paper or taped to cardstock and traced down onto it and cut out. The template tool for paper transitions is at the www.payloadbay.com website...

I have a lot of tips and tricks for making these paper transitions and stuff in the Zooch kits in my build threads... probably the biggest and handiest tip is to get you some of those hemostat clamps, which are typically sold in the cheapy-tool bins near the checkouts of hardware stores and stuff, and then grind or file the serrated clamping faces down until their smooth and flat... these things work WONDERFULLY as clamps to hold paper transition sections tightly while they're being glued up with white glue.

Build a couple Zooch kits and you'll see just how easy these cardstock transitions can be... or download a free paper model from the papermodelers forum and build it...

Later and good luck! OL JR

 

[Scott_mills]

Hey Luke, have you got any decent scale pics data on the orion BPC and service module with cover ? I have enough to do up my eft-1 model, but if I can do it even better that would be great. Right now I am debating what to make the nosecone out of balsa and paper, Cardstock , Or vacuuform . Hopefully i will have it worked out well before naram .

 

[Astro-Baby]

Best tip I could give for paper transitions I got from Fliskits......

Use a heavyish cardstock, steam the paper and form it around something round, I use a rolling pin or for smaller stuff a screwdriver or knitting needlea nd heres the big tip....use a solid glue stick, we call it Pritt Stik here in the UK but you guys must have something similar, looks like a lipstick with a solid glue inside that wipes off. Reason being is its less wet so doesnt cause the paper to wrinkle, it also dries very fast, like a few minutes at most, once the cine is formed regular wood glue will hold it together when its attached go the rocket. I usually give my paper ttansitions a brush down with CA afterwards for added strength.

The Prittt Stik idea came from Jim Flis in the instructions for the Makoa nd its been a real help with stuff.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Hey Luke, have you got any decent scale pics data on the orion BPC and service module with cover ? I have enough to do up my eft-1 model, but if I can do it even better that would be great. Right now I am debating what to make the nosecone out of balsa and paper, Cardstock , Or vacuuform . Hopefully i will have it worked out well before naram .

The current style, probably not... Not that I recall anyway. Not a whole lot was released on it after Ares I started going south (which has been a good while back...)

Personally I'd lean toward balsa or closed-cell foam... easy to obtain and easy to turn. Vacuform could work but of course you'll have to turn or carve a master from which to pull the vacuform parts...

Later and good luck! OL JR

PS... Here's what I've got AFAIK...

https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showpost.php?p=532035&postcount=8

https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showpost.php?p=532595&postcount=14

https://www.rocketryforumarchive.com/showpost.php?p=532384&postcount=13

 

[FresnoPete]

Luke, do you know the weight of those Dr. Zooch lifting bodies? Being an old vacuformer I may try my hand at that. The thing is the weight, 0.010 styrene vacuformed is probably going to be a bit lighter and probably a bit stronger. I could probably get an idea by weighing some of my vac'd 1/32 scale cars to compare.


BTW, worked up a logo for the new hobby...thanks to the ESA for inspiration.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Luke, do you know the weight of those Dr. Zooch lifting bodies? Being an old vacuformer I may try my hand at that. The thing is the weight, 0.010 styrene vacuformed is probably going to be a bit lighter and probably a bit stronger. I could probably get an idea by weighing some of my vac'd 1/32 scale cars to compare.


BTW, worked up a logo for the new hobby...thanks to the ESA for inspiration.

Sorry don't have an exact weight and I'm 1300 miles from home currently at the inlaws in Indiana helping plant corn and soybeans crops...

Ask NJRick-- he's a master on those kits and can tell you pretty much anything you need to know... send him a PM or maybe he'll check in here...

Good luck! OL JR

 

[NJRick]

Hi Pete...I weighed 4 of my Lb's and they range from 8.1 grams to 9 grams.
hope that helps!

Rick

PS- the Zooch Lifting Body is a lot of fun..fun to build and fun to fly! And it has endless possibilities when it comes to paint schemes!!

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?46729-My-Dr-Zooch-Lifting-Bodies

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?59262-Dr-Zooch-Lifting-Body-build-thread

Luke, do you know the weight of those Dr. Zooch lifting bodies? Being an old vacuformer I may try my hand at that. The thing is the weight, 0.010 styrene vacuformed is probably going to be a bit lighter and probably a bit stronger. I could probably get an idea by weighing some of my vac'd 1/32 scale cars to compare.


BTW, worked up a logo for the new hobby...thanks to the ESA for inspiration.

 

[AfterBurners]

Try this site

https://plans.rocketshoppe.com/

 

[luke strawwalker]

On the vacuform lifting bodies...

One thing you might want to be careful of is making them TOO light... you may get to the point where they try to "fly like a feather" because they're too light-- the drag they experience from their surface area completely overwhelms the momentum from their mass-- IOW, too high of a surface area/mass ratio... the thing might simply "flutter" to the ground rather than fly...

The lifting bodies aren't extremely high performance gliders anyway, so it might not be a problem... lighter weight might help-- but drag due to their shape and contained volume (leading to large frontal area exposed to the airstream) tends to be high-drag. Of course the CG needs to be right for the thing to glide properly without nosediving in or nosing up and stalling repeatedly.

Every design has an "optimum weight" for the mass/area ratio... where that lies for the lifting body, I don't know, but it is something that needs to be considered...

Later and good luck! OL JR

 

[FresnoPete]

Luke, I was looking more at vacuforming just the bodies and using balsa for the wings, keeping the weight low to make it fly bottom down. I have read a few articles about the Zooch LB's wanting to flip over, I think putting the heavier structures on the bottom may be better. I'm sort of getting ahead of myself on this topic but it's going to happen somewhere down the line. The other thing is elevator controls. The old Estes Shuttle had a stay system that kept the elevators at a neutral position during flight and allowed them to pop up when separated. Since I still have two of those shuttles I will have to look to see how it was done and try to work something similar in. The Zooch ship looks to be about half the size of the Estes kit so mocking it up would be fairly easy. I have access to a 100' tall railroad bridge to conduct my glide tests, so long as I miss the San Joaquin River and my kids don't mind repeated climbs of the banks I should be fine.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Luke, I was looking more at vacuforming just the bodies and using balsa for the wings, keeping the weight low to make it fly bottom down. I have read a few articles about the Zooch LB's wanting to flip over, I think putting the heavier structures on the bottom may be better. I'm sort of getting ahead of myself on this topic but it's going to happen somewhere down the line. The other thing is elevator controls. The old Estes Shuttle had a stay system that kept the elevators at a neutral position during flight and allowed them to pop up when separated. Since I still have two of those shuttles I will have to look to see how it was done and try to work something similar in. The Zooch ship looks to be about half the size of the Estes kit so mocking it up would be fairly easy. I have access to a 100' tall railroad bridge to conduct my glide tests, so long as I miss the San Joaquin River and my kids don't mind repeated climbs of the banks I should be fine.

Are you talking about the Zooch Shuttle or the Zooch Lifting Body?? They're two separate kits ya know... The Lifting Bodies don't have wings... The Shuttle of course has wings, just like the real thing. It also has ailerons that work together to pitch the shuttle orbiter up to the correct attitude to glide. The Lifting Bodies don't have any aerodynamic flaps or anything like that-- simply small rudders that attach at the outboard edges of the vehicle and one centered on the back of the vehicle.

As for the "flipping over", that only happened to Wes back in the early days of his experimentation with them when he was a kid... basically they're designed to fly "flat side down" and he was trying to fly them "angled side down" which they naturally want to roll over to "flat side down".

I'd STRONGLY suggest you get the kits and build them STOCK per the instructions and THEN think about ways to tinker with it to incorporate things like vacuform parts, upscales, or changing the design...

Later! OL JR

 

[NJRick]

Fresno Pete....for what ever it's worth...I have never had an issue with my Zooch LB's flipping over in flight. I think Luke is correct, it was in the early days of testing with this that the LB had a tendency to roll over, so as Wes' LB video indicates, he simply made the bottom the top. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that Dr. Zooch actually desinged this kit, as a protoype of course, when he was 16 years old or something like that. Once he opened his compnay, he came back to it and refined it. These are fun kits to build and I think you will enjoy making and flying them. Luke is correct as well, these are not soaring gliders, they really scoot through the air. But they are a lot of fun to watch!

 

[luke strawwalker]

Fresno Pete....for what ever it's worth...I have never had an issue with my Zooch LB's flipping over in flight. I think Luke is correct, it was in the early days of testing with this that the LB had a tendency to roll over, so as Wes' LB video indicates, he simply made the bottom the top. I am pretty sure I read somewhere that Dr. Zooch actually desinged this kit, as a protoype of course, when he was 16 years old or something like that. Once he opened his compnay, he came back to it and refined it. These are fun kits to build and I think you will enjoy making and flying them. Luke is correct as well, these are not soaring gliders, they really scoot through the air. But they are a lot of fun to watch!

Hey Rick,

Quick question-- I was wondering what sort of glide ratio you were getting on your LB flights... IOW, how much drop per foot of glide, or rate of descent in feet/second...

Been a long time since I flew mine on a test flight... I DO know they glide steep and fast (high rate of descent).

Just curious... Later! OL JR

 

[NJRick]

Luke,
honestly....I really don't know...its been about a year since I flew one, although I hope to get out soon for some more flights, maybe this weekend....the best I can tell you is that they have a steep glide path and they really scoot through the air. They definitely fly though. I have only had one spin in and that was because the LB impacted the booster at the ejection charge and even though it was slight, it was enough to cause it to spin in. My guess is that these guys go about 250 feet up on a B6-2 engine....I never timed the LB flight...but I would guess maybe 6-7 seconds of flight time...but that is a total guess and with a little luck I can get out this weekend and give you better data.

Hey Rick,

Quick question-- I was wondering what sort of glide ratio you were getting on your LB flights... IOW, how much drop per foot of glide, or rate of descent in feet/second...

Been a long time since I flew mine on a test flight... I DO know they glide steep and fast (high rate of descent).

Just curious... Later! OL JR