Safety Incident from NSL:

[gldknght]

if I was going to implement something like that at a major launch I'd probably make it a separate table & personnel.

Probably a good idea.

 

[gldknght]

Good grief! Think about what you are saying. You want it to say something about removing the igniters in a designated area...

Rule 13:10 has absolutly nothing to do with the incident that this thread is about.

My point was, if there was a requirement for a disarm safety inspection after a launch fail / abort, the incident at that hotel may have been averted.

( I am a NAR member and we have not been informed if the incident rocket was the result of a failed launch attempt or on the way to a launch, or what, so I use the phrase "may have been averted")

I do agree, we should not need a rule that starters can only be in the motors when the rocket is vertical on the pad, ready for flight. We should not need a rule requiring starters to be removed from a rocket before leaving a designated area. But obviously common sense doesn't always prevail.

So I ask this question of all of you... no, Actually, I want you all to ask this of yourselves: How many more of these hotel incidents or similar situations are we prepared to tolerate?

Should we take steps now to do everything we can do to prevent even one more of these from happening?

 

[rharshberger]

Some clubs already have trouble getting enough volunteers for oversight, but if I was going to implement something like that at a major launch I'd probably make it a separate table & personnel.

Typically we are able to put new ignitors in at the pad while loading the next rack, except on the two busiest days of our SodBlaster event, then we require fliers to pull a misfire, and bring it back for a new pad assignment and RSO before going back out to the pads. The main reason for that policy is to maintain a steady flow cadence of flights with out interrupting the next scheduled rack and we may be one to two racks pre-assigned on a busy day. We do not use a different RSO or process, the flier just has to go back through the whole process a second time, they do get to keep the filled out flight card so we reuse that and change the pad and rack assignment.

 

[cerving]

If your rocket is on the pad, you can put an igniter in. If it's not, you can't. Pretty simple, really...

 

[OzHybrid]

If your rocket is on the pad, you can put an igniter in. If it's not, you can't. Pretty simple, really...

I agree that's what was trying to be conveyed -ish. But you did not mention that you can put an igniter in at a designated area. So, unfortunately, what you have just put in writing, is NOT true. This is why it's important to document a properly structured rule. Even an apparently simple rule can have trip hazards.

 

[Sooner Boomer]

My only comment about igniters is: there needs to be a rule for exceptions (or an alternative way...). The reason I say this is because the instructions for the Aerotech G69P is to install the igniter as part of the motor construction. This is a Warp9 end-burning motor. The igniter has to be installed under the aft fiber washer. There's no hole in the grain to insert the ignitor.

 

[OzHybrid]

My only comment about igniters is: there needs to be a rule for exceptions (or an alternative way...). The reason I say this is because the instructions for the Aerotech G69P is to install the igniter as part of the motor construction. This is a Warp9 end-burning motor. The igniter has to be installed under the aft fiber washer. There's no hole in the grain to insert the ignitor.

The manufacturer is on this forum @AeroTech. The rules are clear for the insertion of an igniter. What's their solution? Is it documented with the motor instructions? Why not?

 

[cwbullet]

That does create an issue. We often allow that exception as long as they notify the RSO. We tell them to bring the rocket for RSO and then take it from their car to the pad once the igniter is installed. This allows us to avoid the tent with a loaded motor.

My only comment about igniters is: there needs to be a rule for exceptions (or an alternative way...). The reason I say this is because the instructions for the Aerotech G69P is to install the igniter as part of the motor construction. This is a Warp9 end-burning motor. The igniter has to be installed under the aft fiber washer. There's no hole in the grain to insert the ignitor.

 

[Steve Shannon]

My only comment about igniters is: there needs to be a rule for exceptions (or an alternative way...). The reason I say this is because the instructions for the Aerotech G69P is to install the igniter as part of the motor construction. This is a Warp9 end-burning motor. The igniter has to be installed under the aft fiber washer. There's no hole in the grain to insert the ignitor.

1. Only high power motors are required to have the igniter out until at the pad or special preparation area.
2. For those cases where the igniter must be built into a high power motor, clubs should establish a special preparation area, away from spectators, where the motor should be assembled.

 

[AeroTech]

1. Only high power motors are required to have the igniter out until at the pad or special preparation area.
2. For those cases where the igniter must be built into a high power motor, clubs should establish a special preparation area, away from spectators, where the motor should be assembled.

Thank you Steve for that explanation.

 

[samb]

For those of you new to this thread you may have missed @jsdemar's summary of the incident that prompted the creation of this thread (post #31, emphasis added ):

The details of the incident have been discussed here and elsewhere. In the Tripoli Report article, Bob Brown is adding his personal observations at the time, and reminding Tripoli members to avoid similar mistakes. That's all. No new details.

J motor, igniter installed in 2nd stage, no shunt or disconnect, updating firmware, live energetics in a hotel room. Don't do that. All personal liability. Outcome could've been much worse.

 

[Art Upton]

My only comment about igniters is: there needs to be a rule for exceptions (or an alternative way...). The reason I say this is because the instructions for the Aerotech G69P is to install the igniter as part of the motor construction. This is a Warp9 end-burning motor. The igniter has to be installed under the aft fiber washer. There's no hole in the grain to insert the ignitor.

That is not a HPR motor. There are no NAR Model Codes that prevent starters from being the motor before it's on the pad. That is a HPR rule.

 

[boatgeek]

That is not a HPR motor. There are no NAR Model Codes that prevent starters from being the motor before it's on the pad. That is a HPR rule.

That said, there are a lot of clubs that have club rules that G motor starters are to be inserted at the pad and not during prep. Obviously, you'd need to talk to the RSO about the preferred way of doing that.

 

[aerostadt]

There may be one more exception, which is the aerospike motor. Also, I know I have taken the E6 motor apart at the pad and inserted the igniter then. (This can be difficult in cold weather.) This was after I passed the RSO inspection and was beyond the flight line and at the pad. I believe I have done the same thing for the G12. The E6 and G12 are end-burners (often used in gliders) and the igniter needs to be placed in a small slot in the grain for reliable ignition just prior to putting the nozzle back on and turning the end-closer into place.

 

[Steve Shannon]

No exceptions are needed. Simply establish a special preparation table on the range where these special case motors can be assembled.

 

[rcktnut]

There are a lot of Hobbyline motors that are C-slots also. Trying to insert the igniter in the launch position is not very easy. I insert all my igniters in MPR motors before hitting the launch pad. The chance of an igniter going off without being "hooked up" has to be pretty close to impossible.

 

[UPscaler]

What seems like common sense to some of us may not be for those who may not be totally familiar with their electronics yet.

...or for those who think they're exempt from these common-sense understandings because they've been doing it for a long time and think they couldn't possibly have an issue

Braden

 

[Steve Shannon]

There are a lot of Hobbyline motors that are C-slots also. Trying to insert the igniter in the launch position is not very easy. I insert all my igniters in MPR motors before hitting the launch pad. The chance of an igniter going off without being "hooked up" has to be pretty close to impossible.

Once again, model rocket motors are not included in the rules requiring igniters to only be in place out on the range.

 

[Banzai88]

No exceptions are needed. Simply establish a special preparation table on the range where these special case motors can be assembled.

Everywhere I fly at I've had the J615 aerospike, which is a HP motor and one of the 'special case' motors......and the RSOs have always said to simply assemble the motor back at my work table by the car and ensure the igniter leads were shorted. As an added precaution I keep the motor out of the rocket so that it can be thrown in the ditch/away from people and NOT make a hand launched flying missile if anything untoward happens.

 

[rcktnut]

Once again, model rocket motors are not included in the rules requiring igniters to only be in place out on the range.

Right! Just adding that besides the motors that need to have the igniters in place before final assembly that there are also others that make it much easier to insert the igniters before sitting on the pad.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Right! Just adding that besides the motors that need to have the igniters in place before final assembly that there are also others that make it much easier to insert the igniters before sitting on the pad.

Absolutely! I’m sorry I sounded exasperated.

 

[Sooner Boomer]

That is not a HPR motor.

I don't think that matters. It's not a G80, where the ignitor can be installed at the pad. The point is, the ignitor has to be built into the motor as part of the manufacturer's instructions. It cannot be installed at the pad. It would have been even more of an issue when Copperheads were used, as they can't easily be shunted.

 

[Rob Campbell]

Shoddy Construction!!!

View attachment 604392

Look on the bright side. He just received several years supply of free dog barf!

 

[OzHybrid]

There are a lot of Hobbyline motors that are C-slots also. Trying to insert the igniter in the launch position is not very easy. I insert all my igniters in MPR motors before hitting the launch pad. The chance of an igniter going off without being "hooked up" has to be pretty close to impossible.

Get a bamboo satay skewer. During assembly, you can use it to poke up inside before final tightening to make sure all cores are aligned. After assembly, you can give it a final poke to make sure the ignitor has a clear path.

 

[OzHybrid]

Thank you Steve for that explanation.

7-2	While installing an igniter and at all times afterward, the rocket must remain pointed in a safe direction (away from all people.)

Difficult to see how you can maintain the integrity of the generally applied rule above without having to use an approved area.

 

[Art Upton]

I don't think that matters. It's not a G80, where the ignitor can be installed at the pad. The point is, the ignitor has to be built into the motor as part of the manufacturer's instructions. It cannot be installed at the pad. It would have been even more of an issue when Copperheads were used, as they can't easily be shunted.

I have no idea of what your point is. Under NAR rules you can put the ignitor into the motor of a model rocket engine before the pad or range. Some clubs have other rules but that is fine for them an Am glad they make arrangements for how to do that.

What matters is HPR codes vs Model Codes , that is all. And Club rules trump everything; as Bob Brown about his rules at Airfest. Like take that rocket to the M away cells... He is correct and can say what his club wants to protect them from.

 

[cbrarick]

so far afield, so little time....

bottom line with the thread is follow the safety code for HPR or LPR/MPR as appropriate.
yes, clubs can put additional requirements. that's for them to decide not for us to debate.

 

[cerving]

There may be one more exception, which is the aerospike motor. Also, I know I have taken the E6 motor apart at the pad and inserted the igniter then. (This can be difficult in cold weather.) This was after I passed the RSO inspection and was beyond the flight line and at the pad. I believe I have done the same thing for the G12. The E6 and G12 are end-burners (often used in gliders) and the igniter needs to be placed in a small slot in the grain for reliable ignition just prior to putting the nozzle back on and turning the end-closer into place.

Yeah, I found out about the aerospike igniter thing after I was on the pad... still haven't flown it.

 

[aerostadt]

Yeah, I found out about the aerospike igniter thing after I was on the pad... still haven't flown it.

I've got the same motor, but haven't tried it, yet.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Everywhere I fly at I've had the J615 aerospike, which is a HP motor and one of the 'special case' motors......and the RSOs have always said to simply assemble the motor back at my work table by the car and ensure the igniter leads were shorted. As an added precaution I keep the motor out of the rocket so that it can be thrown in the ditch/away from people and NOT make a hand launched flying missile if anything untoward happens.

1. RSOs are authorized to implement more restrictions than required by the Safety Code, but they may not waive or relax the requirements of the Safety Code.
2. The intent of the Safety Code is that igniters may not be installed in high power motors except at a special preparation area or at the pad. The goal is to only have igniters inside of high power motors when they’re safely on the range. Motors should not have igniters in them when they’re being carried through areas that include spectators or in hotel rooms or in vehicles. What if something happens that causes a person to remove a rocket with an aerospike motor from the pad? Do they then carry the rocket back through the crowd with the igniter in it?
3. Safety Code compliance is a prerequisite to insurance coverage, so any accident that occurs when a requirement of the Safety Code is violated will not be covered.
4. Our Safety Code requirements are intended (maybe hoped is a better word) to work together in layers to provide protection. This is especially true of the rules that limit igniters in motors to the range and igniters connected to a device only at the range.
a. Igniter out of motor except on range.
b. Igniter disconnected from ignition circuit except when vertical.
c. Ignition circuit disarmed except when ready to launch.
The goal is to reduce the risk that one forgotten step can result in a motor firing at the wrong time. When we intentionally decide (for whatever reason) that any of those three rules can be waived, forgetting one or two of the other rules is much more likely to allow an incident to happen.
5. I have left aft closures loose before and inserted igniters at the pad for moonburners. Having a small table and chair on the range side of the flight line certainly makes it easier. Wouldn’t that work for aerospike motors as well?