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Russians to destroy Asteroid ... they beat us yet again :(

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JonathanDunbar

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Never mind its in the RSS feed. I asked the mods to delete it.
 
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Chrisn

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So what? and where does it say the Russians are going to destroy it? So would you rather die?

And who is 'us'? not everyone who uses this forum/internet is American you know that right? There is Russian rocketeers, and IIRC use/used this forum.
 
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Fred22

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Why dont we just keep this friendly:) Chris it is possible Johnathan has reasons other then the ones you stated. Perhaps a question might be in order :)
Cheers
Fred
 

JRThro

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Never mind its in the RSS feed. I asked the mods to delete it.
There's a big difference between making a space-related announcement and actually doing it. The Russians haven't actually done anything about Apophis.
 

WiK

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Do you think their control screen will look anything like this? :p

 

kelltym88

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If you read the article, it says they want to push it off course, not destroy it. Hey, let them do it, the U.S. has enough problems of their own to deal with anyway.
 

WillMarchant

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John's right, talk is cheap.

And it is easy to say "we'll move it" or "we'll destroy it" but a lot of people argue that you're much more likely to make things worse.

What if it was really going to miss and you move it and now it hits?

Or, how would North America feel if the Russians "delayed" a small object impact by 12 hours so that the multi-megaton equivalent event happened over NA instead of Northern Asia? Or vice-versa?

Do you do a preemptive strike to prevent someone from attempting a deflection if you think the results will be worse as a result of the deflection? Do you argue it out in court beforehand?

Frankly, I'd love to see an "impact hazard" be turned into a government subsidy to have private enterprise develop the technology to mine the object with a requirement that any tailings be dealt with.
 

WiK

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Or, how would North America feel if the Russians "delayed" a small object impact by 12 hours so that the multi-megaton equivalent event happened over NA instead of Northern Asia? Or vice-versa?

Do you do a preemptive strike to prevent someone from attempting a deflection if you think the results will be worse as a result of the deflection? Do you argue it out in court beforehand?
I thought the Cold War ended 20 years ago? ;)

What I'd like to know is, is it better to take a "practice shot" on a relatively low-risk object, to get the hang of it, or wait for the real thing to someday come along and hope you get it right first time?

Phil
 

JonathanDunbar

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So what? and where does it say the Russians are going to destroy it? So would you rather die?

And who is 'us'? not everyone who uses this forum/internet is American you know that right? There is Russian rocketeers, and IIRC use/used this forum.
Chrisn,

I will answer each part of your question/responce down below:

Q. So What?

A. America needs to be more focused on international events instead of civil rights hijackings here in the U.S.. Leting the Russians get the experience and glory for 'bumping' an asteroid into a new orbit only makes the U.S. look like the self-indulgent, narsisistic nation that we are internationally portrayed as. I think health care for the planet in the way of changing the asteroid's orbit, is more important then free, more expensive, less efficient heathcare for all Americans. I REFUSE to live like a Canadian or Cuban when it comes to healthcare!

Q. Where does it say the Russians are going to destroy it?

A. It doesn't. I was using hyperbolie in the subject matter to pique reader's interest. After realizing that it was already in the RSS feed forum, I wanted to delete the original posting as it was a) erroneous and b) no one seemed to be interested in the matter, so I was attempting to save bandwidth and keep discussion on-topic and in-line with the TOS of this forum site.

Q. So would your rather die?

A. We all are going to rot in the Earth and have wurms gnaw at our flesh ... life is a curse in that you come into existence, become aware, then soon after, are made aware of your own mortality. To quote Dylan, "There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke." I am one of those who believe this. I am wondering how you came to the conclusion that I had any concerns over life or death in this matter? No really... how? The Earth is hit every few decades by small asteroids and comets, and we survive. We would survive a hit from the size and mass of the forementioned asteroid. It obviously would be painful for a few million near the impact site, but we have enough females of breeding age and health to get the population back on its feet.

Q. And who is 'us'? not everyone who uses this forum/internet is American you know that right? There is Russian rocketeers, and IIRC use/used this forum.

A. I don't know about non-Americans using this site, but frankly, I don't care. This is an American site, used primarily by Americans/English speakers. While I do respect the Russians and other cultures around the world, I live in this American culture and speak English as a primary language. Now, I do speak other languages, Boku wa nihongo o hanashimasu , si hablas espanol, and a tiny bit of Mandarin, oh an don't forget the language of Love, my primary language and culture is American English and Americana. Despite being a nation of consuming idiots, we still are #1 on the planet; although I don't know for how much longer.

The Russians are free to start their own Russian language and culture based rocketry website. I will continue to support this website as long as it has my personal interests at heart. Should this site's primary goal become international, I will go somewhere else, or start yet another model rocketry forum site that is centered on American domestic rocketry.

Non-American users, please understand that I have no right to come into your house and dictate how you should think or act, and neither should you in mine. I do apologize for America's stupid foreign policies. E.g., we supported the WRONG side in the Bosnian war, we are fighting unseen terrorist in lands that we have no business doing so, yet a guy just got on a plane Christmas Eve and tried to detonate his underware despite America having thousands of trops in Afganistan and Iraq ... go figure... we (us/U.S./Americans) just don't get it in that we have a huge responcibility as the only 'Super Power' left on the planet, an we have leaders who are just as dumb and shallow as the guy you pass at the local super market who gets in the 15 or less items line, while having a full shopping cart with 50+ items in it! Next time I see that, I am thinking of making a citizens arrest!

Ok, I hope that helps to clear up any confusion that I may have started.

Chrisn, are you Russian or an international user of this site? That would be cool if you are! I would love to correspond, privately if need be, with other people around the world. I can mail you rocket/aerospace subject matter and you could reciprocate. I have interest in all aspects of rocketry from China, India, and Japan. America and Europe aren't the only way to get into space, and I believe overall its a good thing.

Maybe the mods here should think about setting up a section for international users as it would be a great way to exchange information and ideas from rocketeers all over the world! And I would volunteer to be the moderator for it! Now how is that for being pro-active!

Jonathan
 

JonathanDunbar

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Do you think their control screen will look anything like this? :p


Wik,

As a young lad, Asteroids wasn't my forte. If I had to defend the Earth and be successful at it, I would wan't my missile defense control panel to look like this:

 

Peartree

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Jonathan,

Please be careful of your national prejudices.

This is (and always has been) an international forum and not just an American one. Just look at user identifiers in the upper right corner of each post. Chrisn is from New Zealand, Wik (one of our Admins) is from the UK, a whole PILE of folk from Canada (including vendors), and there are regular visitors from Australia and Bulgaria among others. Shoot, There's even a bunch of folk from California which is probably more alien to us Midwesterners than some of the others.

All of us are justifiably proud of our countries and each of us had reason to think our is the best and each of us is concerned about the problems that we see at home.

This is not the place to beat the drum for one country over another if it is done in a way that is offensive to those whom we have come to regard as friends.
 

JonathanDunbar

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Will,

I would GLADLY subsidize a government plan to defend planet Earth from all space threats; this includes asteroid/comet impacts and invasions of E.T.'s.

The planet is woefully unpreparied for planetary invasion! We can BARELY defend our streets, how the HECK are we going to defend our skies!!!

Wake up people of Earth, its just a matter of time until some space fairing life-form happens upon our world and sees all the nice Hydro-Carbon molecules they can just take! Our women would become their breeding centers, and we (males) would just be exterminated. 'I come in peace' is crap. They are here to take and we as a planet had better get ready! And keep an eye on your governments as they would sell us all out in a hearbeat just to share in the new Alien power structure!

Jonathan


John's right, talk is cheap.

And it is easy to say "we'll move it" or "we'll destroy it" but a lot of people argue that you're much more likely to make things worse.

What if it was really going to miss and you move it and now it hits?

Or, how would North America feel if the Russians "delayed" a small object impact by 12 hours so that the multi-megaton equivalent event happened over NA instead of Northern Asia? Or vice-versa?

Do you do a preemptive strike to prevent someone from attempting a deflection if you think the results will be worse as a result of the deflection? Do you argue it out in court beforehand?

Frankly, I'd love to see an "impact hazard" be turned into a government subsidy to have private enterprise develop the technology to mine the object with a requirement that any tailings be dealt with.
 

WiK

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Maybe the mods here should think about setting up a section for international users as it would be a great way to exchange information and ideas from rocketeers all over the world!
Someone had the exact same idea a few years ago, they decided to call it The Rocketry Forum. ;)
 

JonathanDunbar

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Peartree,

Not trying to push anything on anyone, just being honest and upfront about my responce to Chrisn, or now that I know, Chris from New Zealand.

Chris, if you EVER need any published materials from the U.S., please let me aide you in anyway! Same goes for any of the other international users here.

Jonathan

Jonathan,

Please be careful of your national prejudices.

This is (and always has been) an international forum and not just an American one. Just look at user identifiers in the upper right corner of each post. Chrisn is from New Zealand, Wik (one of our Admins) is from the UK, a whole PILE of folk from Canada (including vendors), and there are regular visitors from Australia and Bulgaria among others. Shoot, There's even a bunch of folk from California which is probably more alien to us Midwesterners than some of the others.

All of us are justifiably proud of our countries and each of us had reason to think our is the best and each of us is concerned about the problems that we see at home.

This is not the place to beat the drum for one country over another if it is done in a way that is offensive to those whom we have come to regard as friends.
 

dragon_rider10

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Will,

I would GLADLY subsidize a government plan to defend planet Earth from all space threats; this includes asteroid/comet impacts and invasions of E.T.'s.

The planet is woefully unpreparied for planetary invasion! We can BARELY defend our streets, how the HECK are we going to defend our skies!!!

Jonathan
Jonathan, I think the defense plans are already underway. Please see the top secret "12' Talon on a P" thread in HPR for the details on our new superweapon and our elite team of defenders. :D
 

DexterLB

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Russians to destroy Asteroid ... they beat us yet again :(
Russians, Americans, "us", British, Gipsies, Idiots, Nerds, Celebrities, Zombies - aren't they all humans? Isn't it all the same as long as it's destroyed? :santa-smile:
 

r2kordmaa

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im new in this field and this forum in particular, but so far i understand this forum is about rocketry, not american rocketry exclusevly. jon, the world is a big place, usa being only a small part of it, face it.
 

DexterLB

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yeah, only about 80% of the TRF members are USA citisens. There are a lot of people from the UK and Canada and some from other countries, like me. Anyway why do we need to divide ourselves into countries?
 

Gillard

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be it USA, UK, Canada, Etc, eventually all our rocket parts will be made in China:D
 

r2kordmaa

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guess for some people its too difficult to understand that world doesnt end with your country's border. its the ostrich logic of: "im not looking at it so its not there"
 

r2kordmaa

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Gillard

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if you want to keep your limbs intact when firing your rockets, i recommend against it. they would would switch the tempered aluminum stock against annealed stock to save two cents without thinking about it twice
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/01/01/shanghai-bridge-made-of-rubbish-collapses/
can anyone remember FUN rockets that were made of foam, started off as Hoverston designs - great kits, and then got made in China and it all went wrong.

http://www.rocketreviews.com/reviews/all/oop_fr_swinger.shtml#MG

here a review of one of the gliders on EMRR - check out the flight logs!
 
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MysticalRockets

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a whole PILE of folk from Canada (including vendors),
Who the heck let them in here?

*grumbles* Slaughter the King's Good English. It's "zee" not "zed". And money should never be called a "loonie".

*walks off grumbling some more*

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:


I have a whole bunch of Canadian friends, and I tease them about this all the time. I even worked tech support for a Canadian Bank (RBC) years ago.

Bob
 

bobkrech

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Jonathan

This is a very old idea going back at least to the early 70s. I'm in the business and I remember in the late 70s we (our company and the US government) were investigating the feasibility of deorbiting space debris and errant space junk with high power lasers, and to propel rockets and spacecraft with lasers for the government. The short answer was that we and other researchers demonstrated that while it could be done, the technology to build multi-gigawatt lasers required for the job did not exist, and would not exist in the foreseeable future.

Using lasers would actually be the cheapest way to go, but it ain't going to happen, and while many books and movies have been made on the subject, none have addressed the fundamental problems with the basic concept of destroying asteroids that may impact earth. What happens if we break it up or change it's trajectory and where does the debris go?

While we can assign asteroid-earth collision probabilities based on the known orbital parameters, the predicted orbits are only as good as your observations. This particular asteroid has been studied for several years, and now the best information is that the asteroid will miss earth by 18,000 miles or so. If we did have the means to break up this asteroid, which we do not, and which no one will have in the foreseeable future, we still would not be able to predict with any certainty where the debris would go, The same holds true if we attempted to alter it orbit, and indeed we could then cause a collision that would otherwise not have happened.

There is no way the Russians, or anyone else, can design, build and deliver any manned, or even unmanned spacecraft to an asteroid for $300,000,000 from scratch. That's probably about the cost of a design study to define the problem. To design and build an unmanned spacecraft large enough to deliver a nuclear payload that might be capable of altering the orbit of, or breaking up an asteroid would require 10 years and 30 billion dollars if you can use existing boost vehicles and existing nuclear devices. If an unmanned non-nuclear device were used, you're now in the 500 billion dollar range and a 20 year time frame because no one has launch vehicles large enough for the task nor the hardware to destroy or move an asteroid.

Pushed to the absurd, if you want a manned mission, your above 1 trillion dollars because not of the technology to support this type of mission exists or is even on the drawing boards.

Even worse, after spending all that money, you could not be assured that you would not send an asteroid into a collision course with the earth on a later orbit, because we would have no idea how the device would actually alter the long term orbit.

It's a nice topic for science fiction, but reality is quite different, and for what it's worth, IMO we have better, and much more important things to spend our money on than to worry about a catastrophic interplanetary collision.

Bob
 

JonathanDunbar

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Bob,

Is it safe to say then that if we detected a large comet inbound and just passing the orbit of Jupiter, and through observation it is determined that it will likely hit the Earth, there is NOTHING we can do to stop it? Can't use nukes because you just break up one large problem into many little problems.

If your answer is yes, and I think it will be, then let me ask the following:

Is the current scientific discussion on monitoring Near Earth Objects (NEO) just a sham and a waste of tax payer money? I realize its not a waste if you are a scientist who would receive grant money, but in the end, lets say you discover an Asteroid that is nearly certain to impact the Earth; there really isn't anything that can be done accept write your will and pray to your maker?

Jonathan


Jonathan

This is a very old idea going back at least to the early 70s. I'm in the business and I remember in the late 70s we (our company and the US government) were investigating the feasibility of deorbiting space debris and errant space junk with high power lasers, and to propel rockets and spacecraft with lasers for the government. The short answer was that we and other researchers demonstrated that while it could be done, the technology to build multi-gigawatt lasers required for the job did not exist, and would not exist in the foreseeable future.

Using lasers would actually be the cheapest way to go, but it ain't going to happen, and while many books and movies have been made on the subject, none have addressed the fundamental problems with the basic concept of destroying asteroids that may impact earth. What happens if we break it up or change it's trajectory and where does the debris go?

While we can assign asteroid-earth collision probabilities based on the known orbital parameters, the predicted orbits are only as good as your observations. This particular asteroid has been studied for several years, and now the best information is that the asteroid will miss earth by 18,000 miles or so. If we did have the means to break up this asteroid, which we do not, and which no one will have in the foreseeable future, we still would not be able to predict with any certainty where the debris would go, The same holds true if we attempted to alter it orbit, and indeed we could then cause a collision that would otherwise not have happened.

There is no way the Russians, or anyone else, can design, build and deliver any manned, or even unmanned spacecraft to an asteroid for $300,000,000 from scratch. That's probably about the cost of a design study to define the problem. To design and build an unmanned spacecraft large enough to deliver a nuclear payload that might be capable of altering the orbit of, or breaking up an asteroid would require 10 years and 30 billion dollars if you can use existing boost vehicles and existing nuclear devices. If an unmanned non-nuclear device were used, you're now in the 500 billion dollar range and a 20 year time frame because no one has launch vehicles large enough for the task nor the hardware to destroy or move an asteroid.

Pushed to the absurd, if you want a manned mission, your above 1 trillion dollars because not of the technology to support this type of mission exists or is even on the drawing boards.

Even worse, after spending all that money, you could not be assured that you would not send an asteroid into a collision course with the earth on a later orbit, because we would have no idea how the device would actually alter the long term orbit.

It's a nice topic for science fiction, but reality is quite different, and for what it's worth, IMO we have better, and much more important things to spend our money on than to worry about a catastrophic interplanetary collision.

Bob
 

dave carver

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I think I'll kick back in my best recliner, eating popcorn, and wait for Dunbar/Krech to re-align the DNA pool to the next planitary sucessor.

What? Like it's never happened before?:rolleyes:
 
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