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Ken1

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Are there any new updates for Rocksim to be released soon?. V9 as it is ,was released some years ago, so.. will rocksim 10 happen soon?.
Or is it Rocksim pro that is the way to go if I want are more updated version? (sadly I can´t buy Pro, since I live outside US).

I use SpaceCad5 aswell so, but that program is also old by now :)
 

KBlack

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Have you looked in to OpenRocket?
 

mpitfield

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Having purchased a RS license just over three years ago and not seeing many, if any, updates at all since, this is a bit of a negative topic for me.

Being in the tech industry I see this strategy all the time. A software vendor develops a product then simply sells it without putting any effort into further development. I get the business model and while some would say it is smart, I would say it is a short term perspective. A longer term perspective is to be proactive and at least fix some of the low hanging issues, like the transonic and above Mach curve that is applied, or some of the irritating issues when it comes to file management or lack of defaults, etc. A good proactive strategy would be to at least try to get some market feedback and identify a top 10 wish list and look at what they can do to develop the product.

As for the Pro version, I am also not in the US, but truthfully I was not aware that it is not available outside the US. Regardless it was the price that put me off. It just seems a bit prohibitive and reminds me of Adobe's pricing strategy. There is an argument to be had that if the price difference was closer they would sell a lot more product as $129 for basic RS and $1,000 for RSPro represents a big delta! Taking this one step further if they sold more product then they might put more into development, hey a win win!

I still use RS for some of my rockets, but as I delve into the higher velocities I now rely on OR and RASAero, which are both free. The kicker is that both are superior to the basic RS from the perspective of a more accurate simulation once you get to transonic and above. That is from my personal, albeit limited, experience but it also seems to be general consensus on this and other forums.
 

Ken1

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Yes, rocksim Pro:s licence cost puts me off as well. As you said, just like Adobe ,(I went with Paintshop Pro for that reason).
Anyhow, it would be good for all that have bought Rocksim to get a decent update, however..maybe it´s not broken and does not need to be fixed for that reason?. I don´t know what Apogee´s about to do with Rocksim.

Rocksim works well for me , maybe should give OpenRocket a new chance :)
 

Buckeye

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Having purchased a RS license just over three years ago and not seeing many, if any, updates at all since, this is a bit of a negative topic for me.

Being in the tech industry I see this strategy all the time. A software vendor develops a product then simply sells it without putting any effort into further development. I get the business model and while some would say it is smart, I would say it is a short term perspective. A longer term perspective is to be proactive and at least fix some of the low hanging issues, like the transonic and above Mach curve that is applied, or some of the irritating issues when it comes to file management or lack of defaults, etc. A good proactive strategy would be to at least try to get some market feedback and identify a top 10 wish list and look at what they can do to develop the product.

As for the Pro version, I am also not in the US, but truthfully I was not aware that it is not available outside the US. Regardless it was the price that put me off. It just seems a bit prohibitive and reminds me of Adobe's pricing strategy. There is an argument to be had that if the price difference was closer they would sell a lot more product as $129 for basic RS and $1,000 for RSPro represents a big delta! Taking this one step further if they sold more product then they might put more into development, hey a win win!

I still use RS for some of my rockets, but as I delve into the higher velocities I now rely on OR and RASAero, which are both free. The kicker is that both are superior to the basic RS from the perspective of a more accurate simulation once you get to transonic and above. That is from my personal, albeit limited, experience but it also seems to be general consensus on this and other forums.
I agree on all counts. RS has always been a one-man operation, and it ebbs and flows with his real job. I skimmed through the version history, and there have been only a few enhancements over the last few years that add to the user experience. Most are minor bug fixes, code changes, and new license schemes. Pretty boring stuff.

The continued inattention to the transonic and supersonic drag models is baffling. My rocket projects have also grown to be faster and higher, and I can't accept that inaccuracy in the simulation. My order of operations is now Thrustcurve (quick and dirty), OR, RA, and RS a distant fourth.

RSPro gives you 6DOF, splashdown, and customizable drag profiles. That is all that is above and beyond regular RS, from what I can tell. I would value that at $250, not $1000. If you really need extreme splash patterns, you are probably already using something other than hobby software.

I was never a big fan of Open Source, but now I think differently as it is making a big impact in my day job. OR started off as a blatant knock-off of RS in my view, but it is now becoming the standard with a cadre of programmers behind it to keep it moving. Any company that sells expensive, proprietary, and especially stagnant software will not last.
 

NateLowrie

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I agree on all counts. RS has always been a one-man operation, and it ebbs and flows with his real job. I skimmed through the version history, and there have been only a few enhancements over the last few years that add to the user experience. Most are minor bug fixes, code changes, and new license schemes. Pretty boring stuff.

The continued inattention to the transonic and supersonic drag models is baffling. My rocket projects have also grown to be faster and higher, and I can't accept that inaccuracy in the simulation. My order of operations is now Thrustcurve (quick and dirty), OR, RA, and RS a distant fourth.

RSPro gives you 6DOF, splashdown, and customizable drag profiles. That is all that is above and beyond regular RS, from what I can tell. I would value that at $250, not $1000. If you really need extreme splash patterns, you are probably already using something other than hobby software.

I was never a big fan of Open Source, but now I think differently as it is making a big impact in my day job. OR started off as a blatant knock-off of RS in my view, but it is now becoming the standard with a cadre of programmers behind it to keep it moving. Any company that sells expensive, proprietary, and especially stagnant software will not last.
I agree with you on the stagnation. It is sad to see the product linger in it's current state for years. OR coming along was the direct result of that and now there are not many things you can do in Rocksim that you can't do in OR. I think tube fins and pods were the 2 big ones, but those are relatively obscure features for relative obscure builds. Given how far OpenRocket has come, I can't wait to see where they go from here.
 

rstaff3

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It seems that with the creation of the RSPro version that the target audience for Rsim has changed. Probably driven by OR's growth. If OR would handle pods, rings and tube fins (and open those Rsim files) I'd jump ship to that.
 

CF-105

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RS Pro, because of its advanced (over regular RS anyway) 6DOF runs into ITAR issues for potential customers outside the US. It's possible to jump through the procedural hoops to get it, but I doubt it's worthwhile for a hobbyist.

I too am disappointed by the lack of updates since v.9. Previously they updated & upgraded quite often. The sudden cessation of updates came as quite a surprise. There are definitely things they could/should be working on. At the very least they should do something to accommodate tablets.
 

EXPjawa

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At the very least they should do something to accommodate tablets.
Regarding that last point, I've been running it on my tablet for almost a year. It's handy, because it makes it quite convenient to bring to a launch, update sims for weather conditions and check different motor combinations. The last bit especially, since I rarely remember the right delay settings for different combinations of motor and rocket.
 

CoyoteNumber2

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OpenRocket's rise in popularity -> less people buying RockSim -> less funding for / interest in updating RockSim -> OpenRocket's rise in popularity?
 

rstaff3

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OpenRocket's rise in popularity -> less people buying RockSim -> less funding for / interest in updating RockSim -> OpenRocket's rise in popularity?
I figured that too. So they are trying to make a high end product.
 

rstaff3

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I wasn't aware of that. So much for idle speculation.
 
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markkoelsch

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I like Rocksim. I am probably one of the few here who has had there hands in RS Pro ( for one year- Tim Lehr arranged that with TVM so I could do the Class 3 sims/write up for the CTI P8000 Mega Darkstar). It is cool, even with a few bugs. I wish it was $200 or so program as I would buy it.

I think that perhaps we should start a separate thread to gather desired upgrades to Rocksim to send to Apogee. It may or may not help, but it could not hurt.
 

Ken1

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Yes, I think that would be a good move to do. It´s good to have a few softwares to choose between too. Before I used/bought rocksim I used RASP? , wich I well "copied" from Bill Stines "rocketbible" ;). Using Basic in DOS.
But still, we have to see what Tim will do with Rocksim. Meanwhile Spacecad, Rocksim and OR is working for me.
 

sl98

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If OR would handle pods, rings and tube fins (and open those Rsim files) I'd jump ship to that.
The latest version of OR has tube fins. I recall when tube fins were first added to OR it was listed in the version history as "experimental." I'm not sure if that is still the case.

You can open Rocksim .rkt files in OR. You can't open .ork OR files in Rocksim. However, in OR you can save your file as a .rkt and then open in Rocksim. Some Rocksim functions aren't supported in OR such as spillholes.
 

warnerr

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I use Rocksim. If Rocksim Pro were priced at $250 I would buy it just because. If anyone at apogee reads this I would wish for library updates to modern components and products. I get tires of editing or making my own components- for example ... Fruity Chutes.... been around long enough to be added, wouldn't you say? The stock motor library is an embarrassment... let alone ability to correctly filter choices... lots of work downloading modern motors and adding them.... certified motors should be automatically added via update. decent product but OR is maturing fast.
 

NateLowrie

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I use Rocksim. If Rocksim Pro were priced at $250 I would buy it just because. If anyone at apogee reads this I would wish for library updates to modern components and products. I get tires of editing or making my own components- for example ... Fruity Chutes.... been around long enough to be added, wouldn't you say? The stock motor library is an embarrassment... let alone ability to correctly filter choices... lots of work downloading modern motors and adding them.... certified motors should be automatically added via update. decent product but OR is maturing fast.

I concur with everything said here. The motor and component libraries are a joke at this point. Everyone of my components is custom because nothing is right.
 

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I think it's fairly obvious that RS was created by an individual who wanted something and justified the effort by making it a commercial product. Now that his need/interest is satisfied, he's lost interest. Problem is, the rest of us haven't and we have 'invested' ourselves (time and money) into RS. Ethically, it is my opinion that if he no longer intends to support it properly, that he state that openly so everyone knows where they stand.

There are a plethora of trivial and not so trivial bugs in it; some of which could be easily fixed. Perhaps the threat of OR has further diminished the desire to update it.

I have yet to try OR but the way things are going, that day is coming soon !

I suppose RS doesn't care anymore if it is overtaken by OR; he's made his money and would rather do other things. I think it would be fair to the community to put it out to pasture if that's his intent.
 

ksaves2

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I suspect the program does what the author intended it to be able to do. For sport flying, it works. If one needs to have all the "extra" features, they need to get the "PRO" version or use something else.
Kurt
 

mpitfield

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I suspect the program does what the author intended it to be able to do. For sport flying, it works. If one needs to have all the "extra" features, they need to get the "PRO" version or use something else.
Kurt
Well I wish this was the case.

Unfortunately there are some irritating things that I would say could be labelled as bug fixes and or enhancements depending on how you look at it. Still there is a case as someone who laid out the money expecting that it would result in further development, to get that future value. Of course that is/was an assumption on my behalf as well as a matter of perspective, my bad.

I also recognize that it is the owner's prerogative to further invest into the product and dedicate resources, which they never made a claim to do. I mention that to flame proof the post in case someone suggests that I am inferring anything underhanded in the way of a undelivered promise. Having said that my guess is that if there was a disclaimer to say the product is "as is" and with no further enhancements or bug fixes planed, then this would have an impact on future sales.

At least in my case I know I would not have paid for the product as I would have viewed it as a legacy technology with growing limitations and thus of diminishing value.
 

ksaves2

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Fair enough. Request for features are fine but I don't think the seller wants to compete with himself. There's OR and RAS AeroII available for one who doesn't wish to pay anything. If the developer lets it die, people will feel it's not worth the
$123.60 to purchase and sales will plummet. Especially if folks feel it's worth their time to learn the interfaces of the open and free products. For serious high speed projects one should be using something other than Rocksim anyways.
Kurt
 

mpitfield

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There's OR and RAS AeroII available for one who doesn't wish to pay anything. For serious high speed projects one should be using something other than Rocksim anyways.
That is a good point and I believe sealed the fate of the product to a degree.

Once I stated to get close to Mach I soon realized that my sims in OR and RockSim were clearly different in their opinion. Keeping things in perspective that this was a best guess and there are likely different considerations for each algorithm, I put them to the test. Clear winner OR. This adds a lot of value to OR for me and their volunteer developers have done a great job in realizing this and overcoming that limitation. Unfortunately this issue lessons the value of RS as I get deeper into the hobby.

It was reading a thread where someone had a graph of a RS Mach compared to the OR and there was a clear visual difference along with a discussion and explanation, which I will not try to regurgitate to save myself from looking as ignorant as I am on the topic. Bottom line I understood what the point was and concluded OR is a superior product for simulation accuracy once you get close to Mach and beyond; to a point. Sure I love the visual simulations in RS as well as a lot of the other features, but when you are attempting to estimate your alt for waiver purposes, or delay, or recovery considerations, etc. I will take the accuracy of OR every time on the more serious flights.

I have also run sims with RASAeroII and it seems to have yet another opinion on the higher Mach numbers, as I contemplate and plan for some Mach 3ish flights.

So I have come to the very general conclusion that RS is good up to transonic Mach .8ish, then OR from there to Mach 2ish but once you start to get into the higher velocities the popular opinion seems to be look at RASAero. Having said all of that, with my HPR rockets I usually run models in both RS and OR, simply because it is easy to convert them. For anything on what I would call the more extreme side, Mach 2 and above, I throw together an OR and a quick RASAero, and forgo RS.

Kind of a quick and dirty rule I am following, and there may be exceptions but that is generally how I weigh them.
 

ksaves2

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I have also run sims with RASAeroII and it seems to have yet another opinion on the higher Mach numbers, as I contemplate and plan for some Mach 3ish flights.

So I have come to the very general conclusion that RS is good up to transonic Mach .8ish, then OR from there to Mach 2ish but once you start to get into the higher velocities the popular opinion seems to be look at RASAero. Having said all of that, with my HPR rockets I usually run models in both RS and OR, simply because it is easy to convert them. For anything on what I would call the more extreme side, Mach 2 and above, I throw together an OR and a quick RASAero, and forgo RS.

Kind of a quick and dirty rule I am following, and there may be exceptions but that is generally how I weigh them.
That is an accurate characterization except that RS Pro might be what has to be used when getting clearance for a Class 3 flight that perhaps your Mach 3 attempt might fall under. I suppose there might be other commercial professional aerospace
software (spell that $$$$$) that could be acceptable for Class 3 petitions but since I'll never go to that level am not entirely familiar with the process except there is a lot of 'splaining to do for approval. Kurt
 

mpitfield

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That is an accurate characterization except that RS Pro might be what has to be used when getting clearance for a Class 3 flight that perhaps your Mach 3 attempt might fall under. I suppose there might be other commercial professional aerospace
software (spell that $$$$$) that could be acceptable for Class 3 petitions but since I'll never go to that level am not entirely familiar with the process except there is a lot of 'splaining to do for approval. Kurt
All good points that I will have to look into as I get deeper into that profile and this hobby.

I did have a quick glance on what is a Class 3 and sure enough it does require a 3-sigma, 6 degree of freedom dispersion analysis, however the documentation I read states that this is function of the FAA Class 3 Review Committee (C3RC). If that is the case then I presume someone on that committee has access to the analysis tools to do that part. Besides RS Pro is currently not available to me as I am not a US citizen and Apogee are not allowed to export it due to the same legislation that prevents me from access to the EX forms, which I cannot recall, I think "ITAR" something.

A few assumptions there on my behalf, but based on my quick look at the current flight profile, it will be a Class 2 flight anyway so I don't need to get the Class 3 facts correct at this stage. It has a total impulse of roughly half of the max Class 2 of 40960Ns, but it does project to tease the max of the Class 2 range of 50,' AGL, with current projections @ 45,' AGL.

Still this project is at a very early design stage and not likely to happen until 2018, or as late as 2019 @ Airfest.

At this stage I have dreams of a Class 3 flight, I mean after some of the inspirational high alt staged flights these days who doesn't. But they are just that for now, dreams, as I have a long way to go to give that some serious thought. Also I am not even sure I would qualify for a Class 3 flight, being a Canadian living in Canada it may not even be an option.
 

CF-105

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Yep, it's ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) that stops you from easily acquiring RS Pro. Specifically due to the 6DOF feature - being able to determine where the rocket will land could be used for nefarious purposes.
 

ksaves2

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Yep, it's ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations) that stops you from easily acquiring RS Pro. Specifically due to the 6DOF feature - being able to determine where the rocket will land could be used for nefarious purposes.
I would think that with the proper vetting, some of the folks with access with RS Pro would be able to run some data for the brethren up North. May not be able to get their hands on a copy but what's to keep from their data being run here and the
results being sent back North to them? Kurt
 

Len B

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I would think that with the proper vetting, some of the folks with access with RS Pro would be able to run some data for the brethren up North. May not be able to get their hands on a copy but what's to keep from their data being run here and the
results being sent back North to them? Kurt
I am not 100% sure of this but I believe the folks in TRA that look after the class three flights can provide that assistance. In any case, they would be the folks to contact for information. I remember asking the author about buying Splash back before it was included as a part of RockSim Pro. Indeed, ITAR regulations prevented that.
 
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I like RS but am also frustrated by the lack of bug fixes. Interestingly, the program is promoted widely by TARC, so Apogee gets plenty of free advertising support from NAR which should assist in sales which should then result in bug fixes. Not only that, but the program is primarily supported by us users who help each other out and who mentor TARC teams.

I think if Apogee had to handle all the tech support calls from TARC teams then they'd realize how many of us out there are doing a lot of free support work for RS. So it's not a bad trade off for Apogee to consider upgrading a program for which they get free advertising and free support from its users.
 
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