Rocketry Wins ATF Lawsuit

[Dave A]

So Federal judges rules AP is not an explosive.
Will dealers ever be able to ship motors in a box that says "Flammable Solid"?
Why can't all the regulatory entities "get along"?

 

[JJSR]

???? Wasn't that YEARS ago??

 

[cwbullet]

???? Wasn't that YEARS ago??

YUP!

 

[DaveW6DPS]

...Why can't all the regulatory entities "get along"?View attachment 375398

Seriously? Different Agencies in the same department don't all get along. Different departments use the same definitions? That is not the government way.

Next someone will want federal/state/local coordination...

 

[DAllen]

Why can't all the regulatory entities "get along"?

Hi! Welcome to the US of A! You must be new here...

 

[jadebox]

It doesn't make sense to create a special category for rocket motors when an existing category already specifies how they have to be handled during shipment.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

The lawsuit was for getting out from under the onerous license/purchase/use/store regulations. It had nothing to do with DOT shipping. Supposedly, the DOT regs are for shipping safety.

 

[cerving]

I just got a big box from Wildman plastered with 1.4 Explosive stickers. We have a new guy at my mail drop location, I had to explain to him what it was, and that basically AP motors burn a lot like road flares, and that they are really not an explosive. It would be nice if DOT and BATF were aligned, but I can live with the 1.4 sticker instead of a flammable solid sticker... either way we're gonna pay hazmat.

 

[cwbullet]

I just got a big box from Wildman plastered with 1.4 Explosive stickers. We have a new guy at my mail drop location, I had to explain to him what it was, and that basically AP motors burn a lot like road flares, and that they are really not an explosive. It would be nice if DOT and BATF were aligned, but I can live with the 1.4 sticker instead of a flammable solid sticker... either way we're gonna pay hazmat.

What he said! It really is too bad that DOT requires these stickers. I have had more than one delivery guy or gal give me a funny look.

 

[Dave A]

Hi! Welcome to the US of A! You must be new here...

Afraid not, been living here all my life and a TRA member since 1999.
My point is there is an existing classification to transport as "Flammable Solid", why would they still be labeled as "Explosives"

 

[Dave A]

Seems dumb to label something that is not an explosive as an explosive!!!

 

[Dave A]

I am guessing negotiating this issue with DOT is even more difficult (the reason for the current labeling)
The reason for my post, like cerving said, having to explain to mail carriers, police or fire marshals, etc,
"It's not really explosives, it's really a burning solid propellant" I am sure they all believe that after seeing a label that says explosives."

 

[afadeev]

The reason for my post, like cerving said, having to explain to mail carriers, police or fire marshals, etc,
"It's not really explosives, it's really a burning solid propellant" I am sure they all believe that after seeing a label that says explosives."

Why does it matter what the mail carrier thinks?
It can work as a conversation starter, if you want one. I once had fun chat with my neighbor when he saw a couple of 1.4 boxes stacked near my garage. He bought rockets for his girls afterwards!

If there was an upside to this pursuit, like voiding the HazMat shipping fee, I could see the point.
Otherwise, it's one sticker (Explosive) vs. the other (Flammable). HazMat surcharge either way.

I find 1.4 Explosive stickers kinda cool, and very durable.
I saved a bunch, and re-applied them to the boiler tank (almost fully covered by now), as well as to my kids doors ;-)

a

 

[dshmel]

Maybe I will put a 1.4 decal on a rocket ...

 

[Bat-mite]

I have received HAZMAT shipments with explosives stickers more than once, and no one from the post office, police, or fire department has ever asked me what was in it. I just find the box on my front porch.

 

[rcktnut]

I find 1.4 Explosive stickers kinda cool, and very durable.
I saved a bunch, and re-applied them to the boiler tank (almost fully covered by now), as well as to my kids doors ;-)

I don't know if that is a good idea or not. What if there is a fire in your residence? I put them only where my reloads are stored just in case of fire to alert the fire dept. to where they are located.

 

[prfesser]

Why does it matter what the mail carrier thinks?
It can work as a conversation starter, if you want one. I once had fun chat with my neighbor when he saw a couple of 1.4 boxes stacked near my garage. He bought rockets for his girls afterwards!

If there was an upside to this pursuit, like voiding the HazMat shipping fee, I could see the point.
Otherwise, it's one sticker (Explosive) vs. the other (Flammable). HazMat surcharge either way.

I find 1.4 Explosive stickers kinda cool, and very durable.
I saved a bunch, and re-applied them to the boiler tank (almost fully covered by now), as well as to my kids doors ;-)

a

Quick explanation: "Did you ever fly those little model rockets as a kid? So did I. I've grown up, and the models and motors are just bigger now. And even more fun!"

 

[Steve Shannon]

Those UN Classification numbers are taken directly from the DOT letters assigning EX numbers to propellant.

https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/c.../RegulatoryDocuments/DOT/ex-2006040327-30.pdf

 

[BA_Incognito]

For me, the label I was most worried about when approaching a scene was the 'Dangerous' placard. You really don't know what is in there.

 

[Tyler P]

Maybe I will put a 1.4 decal on a rocket ...

Technically, the airframe is transporting the motor, so game on!

 

[afadeev]

Quick explanation: "Did you ever fly those little model rockets as a kid? So did I. I've grown up, and the models and motors are just bigger now. And even more fun!"

Yes (low-power), and Yes!

The second "Yes" is a massive understatement.
The quantity and quality of vendors, and their inventory, are all an order of magnitude better now, then ever.

If someone told me, growing up, that I could build a HP rocket from a wide range of COTS GPS trackers, CF/FB airframe, CF/FB nose cones, and multitude of motors, and that all those parts would cost no more than what many adults make from one day's work, I would have asked you what you were smoking!
But we can, and do so now, with regularity, altitude restricted by FAA field waivers, and not the rockets anymore.
And have 1.4 stickers to show for it!

That's all pretty awesome.

 

[msjohnso]

Technically, the airframe is transporting the motor, so game on!

But - unless you are transporting payloads for compensated commercial purposes, the airframe is not 'in commerce.' So DOT regs don't apply during a hobby rocket flight!

 

[TonyL]

Wikipedia has a nice chart of DOT hazard classes:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosives_shipping_classification_system>

 

[DavidMcCann]

Also realize the two agencies are looking at the material in a different manner.

BATF is concerned with the ability to weaponize something. (and yes, storage of it)
DOT is concerned with a materials behavior in an accident during shipment

 

[cwbullet]

Also realize the two agencies are looking at the material in a different manner.

BATF is concerned with the ability to weaponize something. (and yes, storage of it)
DOT is concerned with a materials behavior in an accident during shipment

BINGO!

 

[UhClem]

So Federal judges rules AP is not an explosive.
Will dealers ever be able to ship motors in a box that says "Flammable Solid"?

SP-10996 allowed for those Class 1.3 motors/reloads to be shipped as 1.4C. If you dislike shipping as 1.4C you would hate 1.3.

SP-7887 allows for some 1.4C items to be shipped as flammable solid. This has been the case for a long time. I still have the flammable solid sticker (now on a motor box) from my first motor order in 1995.

 

[Ez2cDave]

It really is too bad that DOT requires these stickers. I have had more than one delivery guy or gal give me a funny look.

Chuck,

When that happens, get a sudden, "terrified look" on your face and say, "whatever you do, don't drop it ! "

LOL !

Dave F.

 

[prfesser]

Afraid not, been living here all my life and a TRA member since 1999.
My point is there is an existing classification to transport as "Flammable Solid", why would they still be labeled as "Explosives"

Col. Blake: Radar, do you understand any of this?
Radar: I try not to, sir, it slows down the paperwork.

Point being: it's the law. It doesn't have to make sense. And often doesn't.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Why can't all the regulatory entities "get along"?

Dave,

It's the "government" . . . "Logic" does not exist there !

Dave F.

 

[DaveW6DPS]

Our Gov

• DaveW6DPS
• Feb 25, 2019