# rocket to space

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#### nickcodybarrett

##### Well-Known Member
how many hours put in and how much money would it cost to put an amateur rocket in space?

the second question would be: what fuel, materials, electronics, recovery, ground station?

could a large enough sugar rocket do? what about pvc pipe as a body? What is the cheapest set up you can do?

these questions aren't for me but share your ideas. someone out there may have these questions.

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#### TopRamen

##### SA-5
Why do newbs always ask this???

Don't worry, I likely have a similar thread here.

The plain answer is without A LOT of Money, or skirting the Law, you will not be going to space anytime soon.
Just forget about it and build some model rockets, but if you win the lottery, let me know, as I have a few things I need up there and am perfectly willing to engage in many forms of commerce to acquire launching platforms.:wink:

#### TopRamen

##### SA-5
Oh, and NO, Sugar Fuel and PVC would never work, so don't even bother wasting time on that.
Don't buy into all that dangerous Youtube crap, you'll end up hurting yourself or someone else.

#### mpitfield

##### Moderator
Staff member
Global Mod
First off what is your definition of space? The internationally accepted boundary of space is 100KM (63miles) or 330,000ish feet, known as the Karman line. This is a small club but below are two links to two separate launches, one considered amateur but I am not sure if the Up Aerospace launch was considered amateur or commercial. Regardless as you can see by the videos it's not one enthusiastic rocketeer, it's a team or a commercial venture, and sponsored. Individual amateur rocketeers are pushing the boundaries and hitting 120,000' plus, but 120,000 plus and 330,000 are still two very different things. I would guess, like everything else, the Karman line will be more more obtainable as the technology progresses, but for now "space" is still a big order for an amateur rocketeer.

#### dhbarr

##### Amateur Professional
Check out Qu8k , CSXT, and SS2S to see what kind of a ballpark you're looking at. And enjoy the videos

#### nickcodybarrett

##### Well-Known Member
ive seen go fast and quake before. ive always wondered, what solid fuel does dave use for quake? does anyone know.

go fast is like buying a lamborghini I reckon.

#### dhbarr

##### Amateur Professional
ive seen go fast and quake before. ive always wondered, what solid fuel does dave use for quake? does anyone know.

go fast is like buying a lamborghini I reckon.
The most info I ever saw on qu8k was here: https://m.slashdot.org/story/160236

Sounds like just really big BATES w/ maybe a finocyl as the top of the ~100kg stack.

#### NateLowrie

##### Well-Known Member
how many hours put in and how much money would it cost to put an amateur rocket in space?

the second question would be: what fuel, materials, electronics, recovery, ground station?

could a large enough sugar rocket do? what about pvc pipe as a body? What is the cheapest set up you can do?

these questions aren't for me but share your ideas. someone out there may have these questions.
The referenced projects are a good starting point. My advise to anyone that wants to attempt a shot into space:

This will be a very complicated project. It requires you to bring together many disciplines and engineer a complex launch vehicle with a substantial amount of risk involved. It requires a good deal of capital (GoFast was around a $50,000-60,000 project) for a normal person not affiliated with an organization. You will want to get a team together as the man-hours involved are very high. But, before you do any of that, you need to gain a base level of knowledge that allows you to as the right questions for the project. If you're ultimate goal is space, you should set intermediate development goals to prove out systems. Goals of reaching 25,000, 50,000, and 100,000' are good starting points. You should have goals for proving out staging setups, the avionics package, recovery configuration, and motors. It's either that are pull a team together of people that have experience in these areas. It can be done. It's just exceedingly difficult to do as an amateur or amateur organization. The first question to ask yourself is if you really have resolve and drive to see the project through? #### EeebeeE ##### Well-Known Member If you're ultimate goal is space, you should set intermediate development goals to prove out systems. Goals of reaching 25,000, 50,000, and 100,000' are good starting points. You should have goals for proving out staging setups, the avionics package, recovery configuration, and motors. It's either that are pull a team together of people that have experience in these areas. It can be done. It's just exceedingly difficult to do as an amateur or amateur organization. The first question to ask yourself is if you really have resolve and drive to see the project through? I have a thread on this forum that is using this same approach. Check out "Going for 100,000 feet." My goal is to use a 2-stage rocket that will achieve this altitude on around 10,000 NS (Full M Power), and I am in the process of building the first rocket in this project which should reach 20,000' on less than 640 NS of power (Full I). There are other threads on this forum with similar projects. Spend plet of time reading them. Plenty of time. #### cbrarick ##### Wildman CT Wow! That must be one amazing rocket to get 20,000 feet on a I motor. The blackhawk 29 will only do 9382 with the I243 (384 nsec) #### dhbarr ##### Amateur Professional Wow! That must be one amazing rocket to get 20,000 feet on a I motor. The blackhawk 29 will only do 9382 with the I243 (384 nsec) I'm guessing CTI I216 @ 636Ns over ~3s? Just idle speculation, but then it may be staged design. #### EeebeeE ##### Well-Known Member Wow! That must be one amazing rocket to get 20,000 feet on a I motor. The blackhawk 29 will only do 9382 with the I243 (384 nsec) It is a 2-stage with 2x H255. For this thread, it is an example of how to gain altitude without that much firepower. Last edited: #### TopRamen ##### SA-5 I love it that folks that can't speak English or make a rocket that does not twist due to wonky fins can go that high. I feel very safe now. #### Ravenex ##### Sponsor TRF Sponsor I love it that folks that can't speak English or make a rocket that does not twist due to wonky fins can go that high. I feel very safe now. What do you mean "make a rocket that does not twist due to wonky fins"? #### RGClark ##### Mathematician The referenced projects are a good starting point. My advise to anyone that wants to attempt a shot into space: This will be a very complicated project. It requires you to bring together many disciplines and engineer a complex launch vehicle with a substantial amount of risk involved. It requires a good deal of capital (GoFast was around a$50,000-60,000 project) for a normal person not affiliated with an organization. You will want to get a team together as the man-hours involved are very high. But, before you do any of that, you need to gain a base level of knowledge that allows you to as the right questions for the project.
Do you have a reference for the $50,000-60,000 cost for the GoFast project? I saw this article that estimated the cost as$200,000:

Can amateurs send rockets to space? Yes, with limits.
By Kevin Hartnett GLOBE CORRESPONDENT JANUARY 05, 2015
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2...with-limits/iRTuZWa6hxkV8M2RthzI4I/story.html

At either cost, that's not too much for a rocket that can get to suborbital space. For instance, there is a market for such rockets for microgravity experiments.

Bob Clark

#### CoyoteNumber2

##### Original San Diego High Power Rocketry
I love it that folks that can't speak English or make a rocket that does not twist due to wonky fins can go that high. I feel very safe now.
Believe it or not, speaking English is not a prerequisite for any aspect of rocketry.

#### blackjack2564

##### Crazy Jim's Gone Banana's
TRF Supporter
Do you have a reference for the $50,000-60,000 cost for the GoFast project? I saw this article that estimated the cost as$200,000:

Bob Clark
The motor was a CTI S-motor. 10 inch diameter carbon case.

That alone will cost 65,000.00

Then you must ship it dedicated truck 1.2 realistically 8-10,000 to start.

Yes, those are pics of the real thing.

Total cost is more like 1 million.

#### FredA

##### Well-Known Member
Really -- GoFast used a COTS motor?

Wow, what a let down for the "amateur" record to use pro stuff?
I mean, using a little "pro" stuff is ok, but the MOTOR?

Also, I thought I read somewhere that they burned through a budget of $1.5M #### RGClark ##### Mathematician The motor was a CTI S-motor. 10 inch diameter carbon case. View attachment 328127 That alone will cost 65,000.00 Then you must ship it dedicated truck 1.2 realistically 8-10,000 to start. View attachment 328128 Yes, those are pics of the real thing. Total cost is more like 1 million. One million is quite a jump from$65,000 plus $8-10,000. As I mentioned the GoFast team built their suborbital rocket for$200,000. And it is a general fact for orbital rockets that the first stage makes up the bulk of the cost of a launcher. For instance, Elon Musk has said the first stage of the Falcon 9 makes up 3/4ths of the cost of the rocket.

Also, when the CSXT team did their first suborbital space launch in 2004, they built their own motor and used aluminum casing, which is cheaper:

Civilian Space eXploration Team.
Launched May 17, 2004
https://www.ddeville.com/derek/CSXT.htm

Bob Clark

#### blackjack2564

##### Crazy Jim's Gone Banana's
TRF Supporter
I was referencing the flight in Post #4.

Close inspection of pics show the motor is carbon.
During a discussion with Jeroen of CTI, he gave me this info. I believe they went this route, after commercializing the flights..

#### Reinhard

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Really -- GoFast used a COTS motor?

Wow, what a let down for the "amateur" record to use pro stuff?
I mean, using a little "pro" stuff is ok, but the MOTOR?

Also, I thought I read somewhere that they burned through a budget of $1.5M As I understand it: The GoFast rocket in 2004 used an amateur motor to reach space. Images online look like aluminum to me. The GoFast anniversary rocket in 2014 was at least partially COTS If I had to guess, the UP Aerospace SpaceLoft XL rocket is a derivative of or at least related to the 2004 GoFast rocket. Performance and dimensions are quite similar and there is significant personal overlap between the teams (Jerry Larson, Bruce Lee and a couple others) and a similar timeline (2004 CSXT, 2006 first launch of SpaceLoft XL). The 2014 version of the GoFast rocket on the other hand looks more like a re-branded SpaceLoft XL than the original GoFast rocket (CF motor, sweeped trailing edge, access hatches). Again, all of the above is speculative, so take it with a grain of salt. Reinhard #### Woody's Workshop ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter I fail to see the need for space...when so much of the ocean has yet to be discovered! Make a sub...at least you can ride in that...and can't a rocket. You never know...you might find the meaning of life at the bottom of the ocean. #### A5tr0 An0n ##### Well-Known Member I fail to see the need for space...when so much of the ocean has yet to be discovered! Make a sub...at least you can ride in that...and can't a rocket. You never know...you might find the meaning of life at the bottom of the ocean. Finite world with finite resources. #### Salvage-1 ##### Certified ... and cost wise ... I am in the process of building a two stager that will get me to the 100K club. So far, it has cost me >$2500 and it hasn't yet flown (Cost includes everything on the rocket, chutes, cord, electronics, cameras, motors and hardware, not just the airframe... and support, including groundstation for radio telemetry, etc.) and that is doing it 'frugal' and off the shelf.

It ISNT just about the cost of the rocket! You also need tracking, ground support, waivers, transportation to launch site, accomodation, etc. etc.