"Rocket" defined

[Skywriter]

Yes this is an old tired issue that has never really been resolved as far as I can tell.

Many counties have ordinances governing the use of fireworks. "Rockets" are often placed under this category and some counties seem to interpret that as "all" rockets, not just those used for fireworks. Accordingly, these counties insist that discharge of our black powder and composite propelled rockets is an illegal activity. Some county fire departments have even gone so far as to have them removed from stores (e.g., Douglas County, Nevada). There is something dreadfully wrong with this logic. Are stomp rockets, water rockets, and other toy rockets illegal? If not, then why should our rockets be illegal? Where is the term "rocket" clearly defined? Where is NAR in all of this? We pay them a lot of $; shouldn't they be protecting us from this kind of rogue authoritarianism?

 

[Steve Shannon]

Look and see if your AHJs have adopted NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127.
Rockets are defined there and differentiated from fireworks, something both NAR and Tripoli have worked hard to accomplish.
But if you think the NAR can intercede in every municipality you’re sorely mistaken. That’s where local volunteers such as yourself must get involved.

 

[BEC]

Also, the effort to define and maintain a separation between hobby rocketry and fireworks so that we can fly has been ongoing since the beginnings of the hobby in the 1950s. The NAR has been involved in that effort since its inception over 60 years ago. Tripoli has been involved, as Steve noted, as well.

But to just expect them to be "protecting us from this kind of rogue authoritarianism" is unrealistic, especially without the help of volunteers on the ground in whatever jurisdiction is suffering from "rogue authoritarianism."

 

[Skywriter]

Yes this is an old tired issue that has never really been resolved as far as I can tell.

Many counties have ordinances governing the use of fireworks. "Rockets" are often placed under this category and some counties seem to interpret that as "all" rockets, not just those used for fireworks. Accordingly, these counties insist that discharge of our black powder and composite propelled rockets is an illegal activity. Some county fire departments have even gone so far as to have them removed from stores (e.g., Douglas County, Nevada). There is something dreadfully wrong with this logic. Are stomp rockets, water rockets, and other toy rockets illegal? If not, then why should our rockets be illegal? Where is the term "rocket" clearly defined? Where is NAR in all of this? We pay them a lot of $; shouldn't they be protecting us from this kind of rogue authoritarianism?

Look and see if your AHJs have adopted NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127.
Rockets are defined there and differentiated from fireworks, something both NAR and Tripoli have worked hard to accomplish.
But if you think the NAR can intercede in every municipality you’re sorely mistaken. That’s where local volunteers such as yourself must get involved.

Steve,
Thank you for response. NAR is not the only sanctioning club I have been involved with. Though it may require some effort to address concerns that threaten our hobby or sport, I've gratefully received much more support from other clubs I've belonged to (e.g., American Motorcyclist Assoc.). Nevada is not a "municipality" and it is a very popular state for rocketry. You'd think I'd at least get a specific response from NAR, but when I express my concerns I only get a generic response deferring support elsewhere. I refuse to be content with that kind of response. NAR could and should do more. Last time I checked, Douglas, Lyon, Carson City, and Washoe counties had not adopted NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127. I will check again. I opened up this thread because of an email I received quoting Lyon County ordinance "...looking at Lyon County's ordinances, they listed "rockets" under their 07.02.01 FIREWORKS ordinance, which prohibits discharge." Apparently "rockets" were not differentiated from other fireworks and I'm not sure how much influence NFPA has over local jurisdictions. There are many launches in California and Nevada Steve, but take a look at the NAR launch location map for both states. Notice that MY club launch for "ROCKONN" is the only one that shows up. Why? I think no one wants to advertise their launch for fear of discovery and possible retribution. I'd rather stand up for my hobby.

 

[Skywriter]

Also, the effort to define and maintain a separation between hobby rocketry and fireworks so that we can fly has been ongoing since the beginnings of the hobby in the 1950s. The NAR has been involved in that effort since its inception over 60 years ago. Tripoli has been involved, as Steve noted, as well.

But to just expect them to be "protecting us from this kind of rogue authoritarianism" is unrealistic, especially without the help of volunteers on the ground in whatever jurisdiction is suffering from "rogue authoritarianism."

Nice catch phrase "rogue authoritarianism" huh. Had to look up the spelling on that. And what are these volunteers supposed to be doing "on the ground" (lame catch phrase) with no organization and no support from NAR?

 

[Steve Shannon]

Apparently "rockets" were not differentiated from other fireworks and I'm not sure how much authority NFPA has over local jurisdictions.

NFPA has no authority anywhere. All they are is an organization that assembles affected parties to work together to write sample code which various AHJs might adopt.
I have found that using the safety reports that the NAR has compiled in the past can be very useful in representing our hobby to local authorities, including landowners and fire dispatch.
NAR and Tripoli are tiny organizations (I’d be interested in how our numbers compare to the American Motorcyclist Association and whether they provide insurance) with just enough staffing to handle membership matters. As 501(c)(3) organizations we are also somewhat (but not entirely) limited in our ability to lobby.
The one thing that both NAR and Tripoli are most effective at is providing insurance.
I guess i would add a question: realistically, what kind of support would you like to see from the organizations?

 

[SecondRow]

I’d be interested in how our numbers compare to the American Motorcyclist Association and whether they provide insurance

Pretty sure the motorcyclist association has a lot more money for a war chest than the NAR and TRA combined. 2020 financial report shows $11MM in revenue. $2MM in cash and cash equivalents at EOY.

https://americanmotorcyclist.com/ama-annual-report-financials/

 

[SolarYellow]

The state has addressed the distinction in the weapons regulations, at least.

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/nrs-202.html#NRS202Sec262 NRS 202.262  Possession of explosive or incendiary device in or near certain public or private areas: Penalty; exceptions.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Pretty sure the motorcyclist association has a lot more money for a war chest than the NAR and TRA combined. 2020 financial report shows $11MM in revenue. $2MM in cash and cash equivalents at EOY.

https://americanmotorcyclist.com/ama-annual-report-financials/

Also, according to a court filing in February 2008, the AMA had 290,000 members and it was a 501(c)(4), which is not regulated the same as a 501(c)(3). More recent claims on Facebook say that AMA has 200,000 members, which is still much more than 20 times the size of NAR. Also, AMA doesn't provide its members with insurance for riding their motorcycles.
By the way, executives for AMA are paid, unlike the leaders of NAR and Tripoli. Now there's nothing wrong with that. AMA is an advocacy group, incorporated just for the purpose of advocating for motorcyclists and their leaders presumably dedicate their time to that rather than working full time in another position and then volunteering a significant amount of time to the hobby organizations:

Name	Title	Hours Per Week	Total Salary
Rob Dingman	PRESIDENT/CEO	40	$255,850
Wayne Allard	VP-GOVERNMENT RELATIONS	40	$164,643
Jeffery Massey	VP-OEPRATIONS	40	$143,678
Mark Pennington	DIRECTOR OF FINANCE	40	$77,457

 

[Skywriter]

NFPA has no authority anywhere. All they are is an organization that assembles affected parties to work together to write sample code which various AHJs might adopt.
I have found that using the safety reports that the NAR has compiled in the past can be very useful in representing our hobby to local authorities, including landowners and fire dispatch.
NAR and Tripoli are tiny organizations (I’d be interested in how our numbers compare to the American Motorcyclist Association and whether they provide insurance) with just enough staffing to handle membership matters. As 501(c)(3) organizations we are also somewhat (but not entirely) limited in our ability to lobby.
The one thing that both NAR and Tripoli are most effective at is providing insurance.
I guess i would add a question: realistically, what kind of support would you like to see from the organizations?

Some help to organize a response to regulatory agencies trying to ban rockets in their jurisdiction would be great for a start. Maybe a list of governing agency contacts having input for regulating rocket related activities? Who to talk to and who NOT to talk to.

 

[Art Upton]

Steve,
Thank you for response. NAR is not the only sanctioning club I have been involved with. Though it may require some effort to address concerns that threaten our hobby or sport, I've gratefully received much more support from other clubs I've belonged to (e.g., American Motorcyclist Assoc.). Nevada is not a "municipality" and it is a very popular state for rocketry. You'd think I'd at least get a specific response from NAR, but when I express my concerns I only get a generic response deferring support elsewhere. I refuse to be content with that kind of response. NAR could and should do more. Last time I checked, Douglas, Lyon, Carson City, and Washoe counties had not adopted NFPA 1122, 1125, and 1127. I will check again. I opened up this thread because of an email I received quoting Lyon County ordinance "...looking at Lyon County's ordinances, they listed "rockets" under their 07.02.01 FIREWORKS ordinance, which prohibits discharge." Apparently "rockets" were not differentiated from other fireworks and I'm not sure how much influence NFPA has over local jurisdictions. There are many launches in California and Nevada Steve, but take a look at the NAR launch location map for both states. Notice that MY club launch for "ROCKONN" is the only one that shows up. Why? I think no one wants to advertise their launch for fear of discovery and possible retribution. I'd rather stand up for my hobby.

If I recall correctly, " Washoe county" is part of the Black Rock Desert? or am I really getting that old I can't remember?

 

[SolarYellow]

Google found a thread from 2011 or so where that was discussed.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Some help to organize a response to regulatory agencies trying to ban rockets in their jurisdiction would be great for a start. Maybe a list of governing agency contacts having input for regulating rocket related activities? Who to talk to and who NOT to talk to.

The problem with local authorities and a response by a national organization is that nobody other than local people know those things. National organizations rely almost completely on local volunteers. They would be starting at ground zero. They don’t know the players or the structure of the local government.
Generally speaking, the first place to start is your elected representative, whether they are a county commissioner or a mayor. They should have connections to the local government agencies. Invite them to a launch or show them videos, pass along the safety reports that the NAR has published, and in general educate them.
But don’t give up on NAR. Ask on their internal forum if other sections in Nevada have done something like you’re trying to do.

 

[shockie]

Yes this is an old tired issue that has never really been resolved as far as I can tell.

Many counties have ordinances governing the use of fireworks. "Rockets" are often placed under this category and some counties seem to interpret that as "all" rockets, not just those used for fireworks. Accordingly, these counties insist that discharge of our black powder and composite propelled rockets is an illegal activity. Some county fire departments have even gone so far as to have them removed from stores (e.g., Douglas County, Nevada). There is something dreadfully wrong with this logic. Are stomp rockets, water rockets, and other toy rockets illegal? If not, then why should our rockets be illegal? Where is the term "rocket" clearly defined? Where is NAR in all of this? We pay them a lot of $; shouldn't they be protecting us from this kind of rogue authoritarianism?

Our rockets can be a fire hazard; obviously stomp rockets, water rockets and other toy rocket models can't.
Plus there are both state, NGO and Federal regulations that define specifically what a model rocket or high power rocket is or isn't.
All rockets are not created equal.

You can always move to a area where rocketry is allowed.

 

[Alan15578]

Now define missile. In Ames , IA if you throw a snow ball, you can get arrested for hurling missiles.

 

[Dane Ronnow]

If I recall correctly, " Washoe county" is part of the Black Rock Desert?

The northeast portion of Black Rock is in Washoe County. The southern end is in Pershing County, with the remaining (and largest) area in Humboldt County.

 

[Chuck Neff]

Nice catch phrase "rogue authoritarianism" huh. Had to look up the spelling on that. And what are these volunteers supposed to be doing "on the ground" (lame catch phrase) with no organization and no support from NAR?

I take some exception to this comment, “no support from the NAR”. I have been a volunteer on the NAR’s Section Activities Committee for over 15 years and have been the chairman for the last six (nearly). For the last several years, I’ve been submitting a Section News article in the monthly eRocketeer and at least twice a year, the following sentence (or some form of it) has been included:

“Could you use some help dealing with a local bureaucracy to be able to launch your rockets?”

As a matter of fact, it was just in the May issue. There have been some people who have taken me up on my offer and requested help. I have reviewed local ordinances/codes, written letters of support, and even spoken with local government representatives. All because I was asked. It’s not required of me. I’m a volunteer and I’m not being paid for it. It’s my choice to help. When I do, I still make it clear that while I will do my best to help, it still requires “boots on the ground” locally.

I’m not sure who you’ve been asking at the NAR but it hasn’t been me…and I am typically forwarded questions along these lines. If you want help with this, reach out to me at sections at nar dot org. As mentioned, you’ll still need to be the boots on the ground but I will support you any way that I can.

Also, as far as your statement, “We pay them a lot of $” …I challenge you to show me any organization out there that you can join for $70 and get 5 million insurance coverage…all for a hobby. You don’t even get that much with the AMA. Also, look at the NAR’s annual budget, you’ll see that none of it is spent lobbying anyone within the government. We’re not allowed to.

Again, if you want help, I’ll do what I can.

Thanks,
Chuck Neff
Section Activities Chairman
National Association of Rocketry (NAR)

 

[teepot]

Douglas County borders California and Lake Tahoe. Maybe the powers that be are afraid of fire. As far as I know Nye County {where I live} is the only county that allows the sale of fireworks. And there are fires every year. As too no rockets. I would bet that the ordinance is referring to fireworks rockets and fireworks would be firecrackers and fountains and such. You could ask to be put on a list of speakers at a County Board Meeting. Explain the difference between the two. I am curios who told the Fire Marshal to have the rockets removed from a retail business.

 

[SolarYellow]

There are multiple big fireworks stores in Pahrump, or at least were, the last time I was through there. At the time, I just figured it was the whole state. You know, like prostitution and gambling in Vegas.

 

[shockie]

Douglas County borders California and Lake Tahoe. Maybe the powers that be are afraid of fire. As far as I know Nye County {where I live} is the only county that allows the sale of fireworks. And there are fires every year. As too no rockets. I would bet that the ordinance is referring to fireworks rockets and fireworks would be firecrackers and fountains and such. You could ask to be put on a list of speakers at a County Board Meeting. Explain the difference between the two. I am curios who told the Fire Marshal to have the rockets removed from a retail business.

There are 27,181 fire districts in the US. Each with their own Fire Marshall who can interpret the NFPA Fire Code regulations anyway they see fit. What could possibility go wrong with a system like that? Well you get Fire Marshalls who ban model rockets in their little patch of paradise.

 

[Steve Shannon]

There are 27,181 fire districts in the US. Each with their own Fire Marshall who can interpret the NFPA Fire Code regulations anyway they see fit. What could possibility go wrong with a system like that? Well you get Fire Marshalls who ban model rockets in their little patch of paradise.

Exactly right. Which is why the adoption of NFPA codes is preferable to having every fire district develop their own rules.

 

[MidOH]

So you go get a permit for fireworks. Dont forget that HPR's fall under the FAA's scrutiny.

In CA it might be easier to just go outlaw and do whatever you want.

 

[teepot]

There are multiple big fireworks stores in Pahrump, or at least were, the last time I was through there. At the time, I just figured it was the whole state. You know, like prostitution and gambling in Vegas.

Prostitution is only legal in a few counties. Clark county, where Vegas is is not one of them. Neither is Washoe county where Reno is. Nye county where I live it is legal. Been to one that has a sports bar many times. It's a whole different experience to have girls/ladies hitting on you. There are at least half a dozen large fireworks stores here. I know Fire Marshall's have a lot of power. I was told when I worked at the Mirage that the only person who could close a Casino was the Fire Marshall. It might be worth a try to talk to the Fire Department. Explain that Armature rockets are safe, have insurance and are allowed in the rest of the state. As an aside. It amazes me how many people have heard of Pahrump or been here.

 

[SolarYellow]

It amazes me how many people have heard of Pahrump or been here.

All the times I've been, it was to go to the race track. True story.

 

[teepot]

All the times I've been, it was to go to the race track. True story.

We can boast the longest road course in the world. When it first opened anyone could pay $60 for an hour of track time. Those days are gone now. It takes 13 minutes from my house to the highway next to the track and sometimes I can hear the cars at home. Did you drive the course?

 

[Chris541]

Douglas County borders California and Lake Tahoe. Maybe the powers that be are afraid of fire. As far as I know Nye County {where I live} is the only county that allows the sale of fireworks. And there are fires every year. As too no rockets. I would bet that the ordinance is referring to fireworks rockets and fireworks would be firecrackers and fountains and such. You could ask to be put on a list of speakers at a County Board Meeting. Explain the difference between the two. I am curios who told the Fire Marshal to have the rockets removed from a retail business.

I'm up in Lane County and it's the same deal with the fireworks. I thought it was a state wide ban but maybe it's just the lower half of the state? Seems pretty silly either way

 

[Dane Ronnow]

We can boast the longest road course in the world.

Another 'race track' that's in @teepot's neck of the woods is Highway 160 between Las Vegas and Pahrump. Back in 2017, the Nevada DOT, along with help from the Highway Patrol, closed a 12-mile section of that highway so a factory driver for Italian carmaker Koenigsegg could break the world speed record for production cars in an Agera RS. His two-way average was 277.9 mph.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/koenigsegg-came-nevada-beat-records/


That fits in a thread titled '"Rocket" defined', doesn't it?

 

[teepot]

Another 'race track' that's in @teepot's neck of the woods is Highway 160 between Las Vegas and Pahrump. Back in 2017, the Nevada DOT, along with help from the Highway Patrol, closed a 12-mile section of that highway so a factory driver for Italian carmaker Koenigsegg could break the world speed record for production cars in an Agera RS. His two-way average was 277.9 mph.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/koenigsegg-came-nevada-beat-records/


That fits in a thread titled '"Rocket" defined', doesn't it?

DOT had finished repaving both sides of the 4 lane. It was smooth.

 

[4regt4]

Another 'race track' that's in @teepot's neck of the woods is Highway 160 between Las Vegas and Pahrump. Back in 2017, the Nevada DOT, along with help from the Highway Patrol, closed a 12-mile section of that highway so a factory driver for Italian carmaker Koenigsegg could break the world speed record for production cars in an Agera RS. His two-way average was 277.9 mph.

That would be "Swedish" car maker.....

 

[Steve Shannon]

@Skywriter ,
That was sure great news from Chuck Neff. He has helped me over the years with tests and such. I didn’t realize the NAR had the resources necessary to help with local governments and AHJs. I hope you immediately contacted him. Please let us know how it goes.